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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 10:48   #1
rop1964
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protecting the small guys?

well, 10 days into r15.. and nothing change.. i m sick of pa player using 2x the fleet of smaller guys.. as they hit pklayers not equal or higher than they are.. but those a the lower end of the bash limit.. giving no chance for the new and weak player to grow.. i m sick of player of 300k , 400k 500k hitting 200k players.

most of those players are yellow, not daring to fail 1 attack, trying to kill, or steal ship/roids of players that cant defends themselves.. pa has become a game of bullying, intimidation and frustration..

and i know half my galaxy want to quit pa for good .. that 8 player out of 13.. i dont know if it means anything to you guys!! but i m saying this right now.. thing got to change.. fast!
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 11:39   #2
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Tbh, things won't change as long as you can maxcap any player within your bashlimit. Some ppl simply don't bother to attack a 300k value planet with 400 roids when they just as easy can hit a 150k value planet with 400 roids and thus gain the same, apart from XP that is. Also, most Zik ppl have the unfortunate position to have a fleet that is not suited to attack bigger planets with as they simply do to much damage to them to steal ships from (and thus gain on the attack).

I have a feeling the problem will solve itself if there is a cap limit reintroduced. Bash limit is gone, but roid gains get reduced by a certain factor, instead of 25% cap you can only cap 5% roids of a planet 40% ur value for example. This in most cases would make bigger planets not want to bother attacking the smaller ones, simply because they won't gain. It ofcourse leaves the Zik stealing problem, but i guess a similar system could be put it to make attacking (much) smaller value planets less interesting.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 12:12   #3
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Re: protecting the small guys?

I wnated to do something like that wandows, but someone gave me some good reasons why it wasn't a good idea, now if only I could remember them.

rop1964, one of our aims with PAN is to try and imrpove the game a lot at the bottom end of things - the game is currently pretty good for the top alliances, but thoose lower down do loose out.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 12:26   #4
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Re: protecting the small guys?

As i have said before the game does alot to discourage these bashings and theres not that much more it really could do because its a player mentality issue really. Even when we had the system Wandows is talking about people still bashed, they may have only got 5% of roids on an attack but thats 5% of roids they could get with little loss.

And the problem is when some people have this mentality it then drills it into others and its simply tough to beat. Really the only way you would ever truely stop it would to be but the bash limit at 90% but then you have a target problem and leave it open for small players to hit the top players knowing they cant be retalled on which to a point is good but when its most of the universe it clearly isnt.

Also Its not just the bashers mentatilty which makes this such a problem, i think its also those being bashed in many ways. Theres alot of people on these forums whom go on about defence being too hard and how it should be easier. I mean Kargool rarely types anything without bringing defence up. But here lies the problem while people moan about the bashers not taking advantage of the systems in place MOST people moaning about how hard defence is when it happens are also at fault. The game is attack based and if an attacker is just sending a roiding party then theres not much to lose. Just load up your roiders and steal them back from somewhere else with a larger value and any lost score is easierly covered and your ships are lost for no reason (ships after all are basically just items of potential value, you lose them needlessly at base and they are basically worthless, lose some of them gaining roids and they have been worth something, well as long as the XP covers your losses)

So anyone being bashed, DO NOT let it get you down. Use the system to your advantage, if you get defence and repel the attack great if you dont attack to nullify your losses. You may lose some resouces from the roids you lose but ultimatly you will grow and will build up a score that no matter what happens ensures you a certain rank as.

And the alliances whos members are getting bashed need to also start ensuring targets are suitable to allow their members to grow. I talked to too many last round who were saying that they were hitting galaxies outside the top 100 daily. You might expect the odd one of these attacks as a retal or something but daily is just stagnating their members growth. Rather than compund the bashing problem give your members good targets, encourage them to attack larger value targets and help them choose targets. Then watch them land on larger targets, taking away lots of roids and xp and most importantly the fun and enjoyment you get knowing you have put one over someone bigger
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 16:55   #5
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Stay a bad target, don't loose your fleet.

It's been like that from day 1 in Planetarion.
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Unread 11 Nov 2005, 20:31   #6
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Re: protecting the small guys?

My advice to you is:

attack more

defend less
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 00:10   #7
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
My advice to you is:

attack more

defend less
u forgot the other option
tell forest
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 12:19   #8
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Re: protecting the small guys?

would allowing people more fleets mean that they send less in each one?

of course, it would also mean they could be bashing more people at once...

guess it covers the sharing part, if not the caring :/
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 16:52   #9
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Re: protecting the small guys?

While I don't agree with rop's points quite, I do think that the two arguments thrown back at him in these threads are pretty wide of the mark : (i) that it's caused by bad fleet composition, (ii) that it won't happen if you're a bad target.

The problem is, a planet over twice your size can easily send enough ships to get a max cap off you and there's nothing you can do about it. It's not necessarily a question about fleet composition, at least not at the lower end of the scale that rop is talking about. There's simply no way you can have a balanced fleet capable of inflicting enough damage on someone that much bigger than you at this stage of the round. In fact, if you did have bad fleet composition, then you'd be seeing more incoming from planets smaller than you rather than 'bashing' fleets.

From personal experience I know that the second statement isn't correct. Due to a multitude of reasons I've had an incredibly poor start to the round and have been sitting around the 130k value mark with about 100 roids. Not exactly high on the 'good' target list, you'd think. Yet I've been attacked three times and each time by someone who I'm only just over the 40% bracket for. One of these was a 300k Xan who actually sent two waves against me. Now usually I'm not too bothered about roids but it's frustrating when something like that happens because it does have quite a drastic effect on your efforts to rebuild an already disastrous situation, and the attacker is just wasting his time. 50-ish roids at such a dismal bravery factor for tying up two fleets?

I actually agree with Wakey that it's a problem of mentality on both sides. There are people in the game who don't care about XP and are perfectly happy to send two fleets out to get fifty roids if it's a guaranteed thing rather than risk it against larger targets. Likewise, a lot of the people who suffer from persistent attacks by larger players just don't know enough about the game to realise that roids are fairly meaningless and they're easy enough to regain by attacking. And it's unfortunate, but a lot of these guys may well leave the game over it.
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Unread 12 Nov 2005, 22:46   #10
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Re: protecting the small guys?

one of the main problems with bashing in my opinion is that people with no alliance are unable to get decent cover on a gal and wont get defence in when they are attacked. So they will go looking for the smaller gals so they can land an attack as the people in bigger gals will almost certainly get defence against a single player,sothe smaller players that make up the smaller gals end up getting bashed like this. So part of the problem is not just the experianced players bashing infact i think that most of the more expirianced player don't bash. It is the newer players bashing other newer players so perhapps one answer to this problem lyes in the people who have nwer players in their gal/alliance teaching them not to bash and getting new players to join an alliance (i recomend this to anyone who joins my gal) no matter if they can't join the top 10 alliances there are still other alliances in the top 20 that could benifit from new members and new members could benifit from also getting people to do this will enable the main advantage that has been added this round for smaller alliances allowing them to have more players than the top alliances (which means more fleets so potentually more growth)
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 11:40   #11
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Re: protecting the small guys?

As I suggested a few times already, I think XP is the point to change the game at.
While I like the idea of the bravery factor I definitly miss some way to loose XP again. I'd implement these two XP reductions:
a) 0.01% of your XP gets lost per tick (aka worn out) -> stops XP whoring somewhat efficient, perhaps needs other rates, 1% (probably very harsh), 0.1%, ...
b) The possibility of negative XP for attacking small planets. e.g. half your size = -1*XP/roid, same size=0*XP/roid, 2*your size=1*XP/roid. (simplified formulas, just extrapolate it to the bravery factor.
Old bravery factor:
bravey_factor=10*(target_value/your_value)
New bravery factor:
10 * ((target value / your value) - 1) = 10 * (target_value/your_value) - 10
The '-1' states at what point we want to start and punish people for attacking lower valued planets. -1 = 100% your size to gain 0 XP, -0.6 -> 60% your size to gain 0 XP, ...

*might be* some negative XP should be added for Ziks stealing of much smaller planets at that smaller planet. While I personally don't like Ziks it might still cripple them to much.

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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 11:46   #12
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Re: protecting the small guys?

rop, i'll give you the ultimate in-game tip for success.

Don't do anything all day, don't touch a button.

Then launch an attack based on a Planet Scan (see how much resources they spend, assume they spend it on the ships that mess you up, and then add this to the bcalc you'll make with the Unit Scan), a Unit scan and the galaxy the player is in. I suggest you don't go for a top galaxy unless you have Jumpgate scans and/or friend/alliance help.

Then send your primary roiding fleet to the target, prelaunch +11 or whatever so that you attack at around 2am GMT. Then here's the genious bit:

Prelaunch all your other ships to defend 1:1:1 +10 or so, so that no bigger players can hurt you while you don't login for half a day again. You lose a few roids, but appear active, and can happily roid targets, gaining score but not too much value, and your incomings will be kind for your ability.

Or something.
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 11:54   #13
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
rop, i'll give you the ultimate in-game tip for success.

Don't do anything all day, don't touch a button.

Then launch an attack based on a Planet Scan (see how much resources they spend, assume they spend it on the ships that mess you up, and then add this to the bcalc you'll make with the Unit Scan), a Unit scan and the galaxy the player is in. I suggest you don't go for a top galaxy unless you have Jumpgate scans and/or friend/alliance help.

Then send your primary roiding fleet to the target, prelaunch +11 or whatever so that you attack at around 2am GMT. Then here's the genious bit:

Prelaunch all your other ships to defend 1:1:1 +10 or so, so that no bigger players can hurt you while you don't login for half a day again. You lose a few roids, but appear active, and can happily roid targets, gaining score but not too much value, and your incomings will be kind for your ability.

Or something.
Listen to almost everything bwtmc says. Except that you can and must of course do constructions and researches even through the day and that attacking a planet based upon planet- and unit scan would be more likely to provide the desired success.
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 11:58   #14
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Re: protecting the small guys?

It's funny when the individual discovers they can kick ass logging in twice a day.
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 12:23   #15
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowmando
one of the main problems with bashing in my opinion is that people with no alliance are unable to get decent cover on a gal and wont get defence in when they are attacked. So they will go looking for the smaller gals so they can land an attack as the people in bigger gals will almost certainly get defence against a single player,sothe smaller players that make up the smaller gals end up getting bashed like this. So part of the problem is not just the experianced players bashing infact i think that most of the more expirianced player don't bash. It is the newer players bashing other newer players so perhapps one answer to this problem lyes in the people who have nwer players in their gal/alliance teaching them not to bash and getting new players to join an alliance (i recomend this to anyone who joins my gal) no matter if they can't join the top 10 alliances there are still other alliances in the top 20 that could benifit from new members and new members could benifit from also getting people to do this will enable the main advantage that has been added this round for smaller alliances allowing them to have more players than the top alliances (which means more fleets so potentually more growth)
While the bashing does encourage more bashing you cant really say that that most experianced players dont bash as the evidence doesnt support this. Last round and this round I have had a TOTAL of TWO attacks on me by planets the same size or larger than me. Now I havent had a great galaxy in either of these two roud so I have had more than my fair share of incoming but so few actually after gains. Most people attack me, get away with maybe 50 roids but grab so little xp that its largely unprofitable, in fact most see their score drop after an attack. And we are talking about someone here who has bads of experiance, always holds a fairly good rank thus meaning those attacking are not your inxperianced and new players yet they are still hitting close to the bash limit.

Simply put the problem isnt something thats just a small players issue, its a problem that plaugues the game from the very top and spreads its disease slowly but surly through most of the game
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 12:31   #16
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Note to self, don't tell wakey's alliance players to login twice a day and defend 1:1:1 with all their defence ships in future. :S


Though, bashing isn't a problem, you have to adapt your player style to the current status of the game. If you can't out-do it, there's a whole host of people on this forum who'd probably be willing to give you the five minutes of plain English advice you need to succeed.

In round 13, I was your typical all out, sleepless Cath who couldn't self-cover anything, got raped several times on a daily basis, but somehow managed to finish nicely in the t100 with a not too embarrassing ~2-3mil value.

In round 14, I was Xandathrii, which defensively was by far the best race and bashed players all round, simply because 1up had no one bigger to hit. The resultant effect is, the guy I just hit probably thought about roiding people smaller than him too, but the game didn't allow me to play any differently.
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 12:36   #17
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
As I suggested a few times already, I think XP is the point to change the game at.
While I like the idea of the bravery factor I definitly miss some way to loose XP again. I'd implement these two XP reductions:
a) 0.01% of your XP gets lost per tick (aka worn out) -> stops XP whoring somewhat efficient, perhaps needs other rates, 1% (probably very harsh), 0.1%, ...
b) The possibility of negative XP for attacking small planets. e.g. half your size = -1*XP/roid, same size=0*XP/roid, 2*your size=1*XP/roid. (simplified formulas, just extrapolate it to the bravery factor.
Old bravery factor:
bravey_factor=10*(target_value/your_value)
New bravery factor:
10 * ((target value / your value) - 1) = 10 * (target_value/your_value) - 10
The '-1' states at what point we want to start and punish people for attacking lower valued planets. -1 = 100% your size to gain 0 XP, -0.6 -> 60% your size to gain 0 XP, ...

*might be* some negative XP should be added for Ziks stealing of much smaller planets at that smaller planet. While I personally don't like Ziks it might still cripple them to much.

_are_
Losing XP defeats much of the object of it. The point of XP is to reward you for good actions no matter what happens later and its eastreamly liberating for new players because it makes losing ships and roids a little less damaging. If it was to degrade then any time you decide to defend someone or you go on the run of bad luck that we all experiance at some point your damaging them.

Ss for neg XP i have always said I believe there should be a score punishment for attacking too small, the problem is with your formula it seems like your actually removing the reward somewhat for attacking larger planets. Atm for example I am attacking with a Bravery Factor of 18, this more than covers any ships i might lose and makes an attck profitable. Under your sytsem though the xp gains would fall to 8 thus leaving my attack struggling to break even, I would hence be forced to take smaller targets than i am because the acceptable ship loss level shifts dramatically
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 13:08   #18
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Note to self, don't tell wakey's alliance players to login twice a day and defend 1:1:1 with all their defence ships in future. :S
TBH F-Crew players are probally the last people you need to tell such information to as they hear it a couple of times a week from me. Rop certainly knows better than most that he should be attacking regularry, prelaunching ships to saftey when he leaves his pc and no worrying about toid loss BUT as you can see from him even with this information it can be very demorilising to see members of top alliances landing on you when your just half the attackers value and people shouldnt be sitting back and taking it. Its only buy raising the issues that atttudes can change and help make the gaming enviorment better for all

Quote:
Though, bashing isn't a problem, you have to adapt your player style to the current status of the game. If you can't out-do it, there's a whole host of people on this forum who'd probably be willing to give you the five minutes of plain English advice you need to succeed.

In round 13, I was your typical all out, sleepless Cath who couldn't self-cover anything, got raped several times on a daily basis, but somehow managed to finish nicely in the t100 with a not too embarrassing ~2-3mil value.

In round 14, I was Xandathrii, which defensively was by far the best race and bashed players all round, simply because 1up had no one bigger to hit. The resultant effect is, the guy I just hit probably thought about roiding people smaller than him too, but the game didn't allow me to play any differently.
I'm guessing thats at me and if so you have misinterpreted what I am saying and havent bothered to read anything else ive posted. I think it would be fairly safe to assume that of any alliance in PA F-Crew is up there with having adapted the most to the new game. Over the last couple of rounds our membership numbers havent risen BUT our relative performances have significantly. We have gone from an alliance whom would be around the 15-20 mark to one thats able to mix it with alliances with a much better 'pedigree' when it comes to acheiving ranking and military success. And all this is because we have adapted, we dont worry about not being able to defend everything, we defend what we can, keep ships safe where we cant and make sure people are out making gains to cover any losses.

And yes at times the game may dictate that you have to seemingly 'bash'. However theres more people whom undertake this action than there are people whom are in a position where the are somewhat forced to do so. For these people its either a fact of its their choosing to bash or their alliance is making them through the NAP's they hold or with the targets they assign for attacks. IF its the members choice to hit lower targets even though better ones are availabe then their alliance should be making an issue of reversing this and if its the alliance then the players should be making their voices heard to help change alliance policy a little
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 13:58   #19
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Losing XP defeats much of the object of it. The point of XP is to reward you for good actions no matter what happens later and its eastreamly liberating for new players because it makes losing ships and roids a little less damaging. If it was to degrade then any time you decide to defend someone or you go on the run of bad luck that we all experiance at some point your damaging them.
A slow timeout won't hurt much for a honest player that doesn't rely on the so-called XP-whoring we have seen earlier. It is not like you loose it all of a sudden, but I see no rreason that someone who does a great strike in an early tick ten goes inactive should be able to win the game.
Currently this is solved by capping the bravery factor, after Gerbie showed it can be 'abused' in r10. This part is solved by capping, XP-whoring is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Ss for neg XP i have always said I believe there should be a score punishment for attacking too small, the problem is with your formula it seems like your actually removing the reward somewhat for attacking larger planets. Atm for example I am attacking with a Bravery Factor of 18, this more than covers any ships i might lose and makes an attck profitable. Under your sytsem though the xp gains would fall to 8 thus leaving my attack struggling to break even, I would hence be forced to take smaller targets than i am because the acceptable ship loss level shifts dramatically
See the formula as suggestion. What makes up for the ship loss is what you gain from the XP. E.g. gain 120*XP instead of 60*XP score. Ofc this punishes bashers more, too. I can live with that.

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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 14:02   #20
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Zhukov and lokken (surprisingly enough) are quite right.
If you lose roids, just go get new ones. Just don't lose the stupid fleet.

Of course that might mean that you yourself will have to bash some more smallies then :/


Yet if there'd be well worked-out and tested systems that help abit against bashing via XP or capping, that might be quite sensible.
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Unread 13 Nov 2005, 14:21   #21
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Re: protecting the small guys?

That was definitely aimed at the average individual player and not you wakey, i'm not that misinformed that i'd make claims about alliances i'm so proud to have in PA five years on from signing up, no way!

Bashing actually stems, a lot of the time, from a fear of three things for players in general:

Insufficient information, hit a much smaller player and even without much scanning information you can try to shape a reasonably safe land.

Concerns about a big player being more active, or a big galaxy covering them, a player solo-attacking for instance is (to a point) unlikely to seep through on big targets without any co-ordination with other attackers.

Fear of retaliation.
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 03:26   #22
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Re: protecting the small guys?

What i want to point out, is that a player of twice your value can cripple you over and over till he cant hit you anymore, then he ll just do it again to someone else...

there s 3 way to cripple a player:1) having multiple incoming on many close ticks (8 wave on 9 tick as exemple, 2)getting attack by "basher" who just steal your roid blind, often waiting for you to initiate more so he can do it again!, 3)stealing a fleet on multiple fleetcatch.

having 8 attack or more within8-12 consecutive hours will most probably leave a player near roidless, and may also see the player lose half his fleet, and from expereience, no alliance defend such an unlucky player, cause he become too big a drain on possible defense.

basher (2x value of target) dont care about xp, value or score, they see only short term easy roid gain, thinking, to more i ll get from easy target , the more i ll have to build my fleet" attitude, which only gonna frustrate those trying to rebuild their roid stacks or fleet. try making a fleet with 50 roid all round long! because players come and get your new roids you got within the next 4 hours.

while there s little to be done about fleetcatching, as it s yhe main weapon of ziks.. they too seem to have a tendency to target way below their value (and considering they gain value bu stealing ships) and are just promoting the same ideas as basher do.

and i know attacking is better to get roids than defending.. but when you get no ships to attack with (not necessarily cause you lost them, but because you cant produce enough to keep up) it because almost hopeless to keep going. again i dare anyone to produce ships with next to no roids, especially after we pass mid round..

personally , i m one of the busiest guy in my gal and alliance, and i strive to hit equal or higher target. but when i get crippled, then i see players attacking me for next to very small amount of roids while target of bigger size are available infuriate me, cause that force me to attack weaker players back. thus creating a vicious circle.. the weaker a player get, the more weaker a target he ll try to find.. deafeating the reason to award experience in the first place, and creating frustration in those players at the end of the ladder..

i dont know how many players we have this round, let s say 4000. what do you think those players are thinking right now(rank 3500 and less) do you really think they enjoy being attack constantly by bigger guys that grow stronger as time goes by?
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 10:03   #23
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Re: protecting the small guys?

well, not many players hit the same target over and over again like that for fear of being closed.

and what you're saying doesn't really make sense. there's no way you're not capable of being bigger than 99% of allianceless planets.. and players in alliances don't attack the same guy repeatedly in that manner.

the general idea in this game, is just to do something about it. i think i saw dunkelgraf finish t100 despite being allianceless last round, (can't really remember), and t200 rank is easily possible alone with no alliance, in any galaxy
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 15:31   #24
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I have a feeling the problem will solve itself if there is a cap limit reintroduced. Bash limit is gone, but roid gains get reduced by a certain factor, instead of 25% cap you can only cap 5% roids of a planet 40% ur value for example. This in most cases would make bigger planets not want to bother attacking the smaller ones, simply because they won't gain. It ofcourse leaves the Zik stealing problem, but i guess a similar system could be put it to make attacking (much) smaller value planets less interesting.
Unfortunately this only works if people are smart.

They're not.
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Unread 14 Nov 2005, 15:45   #25
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Re: protecting the small guys?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
My advice to you is:

attack more

defend less
I have never been the selfish kind.
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