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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 11:18   #301
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Interesting thing is, that there's only 1-2 allies receiving the revenge for joining the block. At first it was poor pingu who initially wanted to stay uninvolved and later on it was rainbows who were bashed. Now it's Norse if rumors are correct.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 11:24   #302
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Do you know what they do to sick horses? They get put the **** down, like bows did, the sick horse of PA
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On a different note, Did you know that retards often band together in groups of 49, call their group something like, unicorns, rainbows or the princess gang?
… i am sure u are proud of yourself and 'pat yourself on the back' frequently, for such thoughtless statements...
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 11:27   #303
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
There's definitely some selective reading going on with you guys. I don't think anyone is suggesting this isn't fair other than the Ultores posters bringing it up time and time again. However as you attempt to correct others with your beliefs, I will continue to correct you where you are wrong.
I never stated it wasn't fair. I just stated a fact; We were being attacked by 4 alliances, We dealt with it, and we prevailed.


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Astatores planets has been seen escorting Ult members this round. Thats a fact.
Wich would explain why Ultores are able to outroid people so easily this round, due to having more attack fleets than everyone else, and having their 2nd tag escort some planets in main tag.
Escorts happen, its not the sole reason we roid better then everyone else. The reason we roid better then everyone else is because we are better. Way better. We proove this every round by being on top. I know this because that is usually the point we stop attacking to defend vs the block.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 12:29   #304
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Kalipso_ View Post
… i am sure u are proud of yourself and 'pat yourself on the back' frequently, for such thoughtless statements...
I am very proud of myself and it is a true statement
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 13:02   #305
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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I am very proud of myself and it is a true statement
sorry, maybe i was too fast with the judgment...and you are just too young or not having much real life experience outside PA to know better... i would bet on the second
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 14:00   #306
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Kalipso_ View Post
sorry, maybe i was too fast with the judgment...and you are just too young or not having much real life experience outside PA to know better... i would bet on the second
I like how you lack the intelligence to spot pure sarcasm. Lets hope it is just ignorance and that it doesnt reflect on real life.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 14:23   #307
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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I like how you lack the intelligence to spot pure sarcasm. Lets hope it is just ignorance and that it doesnt reflect on real life.
there is a thin line between sarcasm and arrogance
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 15:13   #308
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Eternity/Jumper. Not having any of that kind of discussion. Don't care who started it.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 15:42   #309
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Eternity/Jumper. Not having any of that kind of discussion. Don't care who started it.
Sorry good sir, will keep it clean from now on
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 15:53   #310
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Something is lost in interpretation here because you are responding again with some strange fringe argument.
I guess I can only dumb it down so much, but clearly its not enough for you to grasp, so I'll leave you to your fantasy world. I imagine its very much like the inside of Caboose's mind in Red vs Blue...
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 15:56   #311
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Kalipso_ View Post
there is a thin line between sarcasm and arrogance
Yeeeaaahh, as someone who literally said someone must be too young, or have too little experience outside of PA, I'd hold off on that arrogance label just a tad...
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 17:55   #312
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

PA must be the only community where they insult each other non-stop. You're all incompetent mini Butchers.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 18:52   #313
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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PA must be the only community where they insult each other non-stop. You're all incompetent mini Butchers.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 20:20   #314
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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PA must be the only community where they insult each other non-stop.
I agree. Why can't you all be nice and pleasant like Clou--
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You're all incompetent mini Butchers.
Oh.
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Unread 26 Apr 2017, 22:38   #315
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
You're all incompetent mini Butchers.
Does this imply we are incompetent at being Butcher, and therefor competent?
Does this also imply you are incompetent, by stating the rest of us are incompetent mini Butchers?
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Unread 27 Apr 2017, 00:30   #316
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Calm down with the aggro please. If you're just throwing insults or having digs without discussion about the game attached it's just not wanted. Keep the discussion on topic so the thread doesn't descend into a hole.

Cheers.
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Unread 27 Apr 2017, 16:46   #317
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Calm down with the aggro please. If you're just throwing insults or having digs without discussion about the game attached it's just not wanted. Keep the discussion on topic so the thread doesn't descend into a hole.

Cheers.
You're mistaken.

This game has been down a hole for a long time.
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Unread 27 Apr 2017, 18:20   #318
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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You're mistaken.

This game has been down a hole for a long time.
For the game to be at its best you need a large committed global player base where organisation, logistics and the geography of the universe dominate the game. Sadly it's unsustainable for enough people to keep up with.

Also I was talking about this thread. To be honest I read the thread and if you're upset about ult's dominance you might as well just go for it. Absolutely no reason to fear losing: even if you lose a war you can always make something from your round if you are good at the game. If you don't fight ult you've definitely lost. If you do fight them you might lose out to someone weaker but at least you are giving yourself a chance.
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Unread 27 Apr 2017, 20:49   #319
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Interesting thing is, that there's only 1-2 allies receiving the revenge for joining the block. At first it was poor pingu who initially wanted to stay uninvolved and later on it was rainbows who were bashed. Now it's Norse if rumors are correct.
This strikes me as an odd statement. Both because it is actually wrong; CT, ND, and Norse all seem to be taking incoming. And because there should be an expectation that only 1 alliance at a time will take the heat during any block style war as it is usually much more efficient that way so why make a big thing of it? It was absolutely correct that p3n took most of the heat on our side last time round as we were in 2nd. We hoped to stay out of the block long enough that app got to 2nd precisely because of this. And for the same reason we expected to take most incs again this time and have been rather surprised that as yet it has not happened.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 02:22   #320
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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This strikes me as an odd statement. Both because it is actually wrong; CT, ND, and Norse all seem to be taking incoming. And because there should be an expectation that only 1 alliance at a time will take the heat during any block style war as it is usually much more efficient that way so why make a big thing of it? It was absolutely correct that p3n took most of the heat on our side last time round as we were in 2nd. We hoped to stay out of the block long enough that app got to 2nd precisely because of this. And for the same reason we expected to take most incs again this time and have been rather surprised that as yet it has not happened.
I guess so late in a round where there is nothing to play for except payback, or revenge most people will pick targets wich have pissed them off the most.
ND has played pretty dirty politics according to many, including FAnG id guess.
Before the ult NAPing they had 5 top10 planets, now they soon dont have any in top20
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 07:05   #321
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

What has been dirty about ND politics? Please define it and explain rather than throwing around mud.

And of all alliances I don't think FAnG can complain about dirty politics. 3 agreements with p3n. All 3 broken without warning (though the last one did kind of totter on). That is the kind of thing I would consider dirty politics, is it what you are thinking of?
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 07:25   #322
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

I'm honestly surprised that ND and fang are the first to be mentioned with dirty politics. There is another one even more dirty...
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 07:40   #323
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

I'm guessing from that you mean p3n. If so could you please state what we have done that has been dirty. We have broken no agreements this round - not even any ambiguous ones where we think we did not break it but there are clear ways for the other party to think we did as with app a few rounds ago. I can see a couple of alliances have cause to be annoyed with us (Norse for our earlier fight and overreaction, ult because once on board we have been a key part of the block). However in neither case did we break an agreement or backstab anyone. The most underhand thing we have done this round was have a tg channel as a discussion shop with gm early in the round to discuss if anything was likely to be done about ult's dominance (this is slightly dirty as we had raid avoidance with ult at the time).

So Dorf as with bb please state your definition and tell us what we have done to fill that definition rather than random mud throwing.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 07:40   #324
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Dorf View Post
I'm honestly surprised that ND and fang are the first to be mentioned with dirty politics. There is another one even more dirty...
Yeah, but we really don't talk about BlackFlag like that anymore...
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 09:17   #325
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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What has been dirty about ND politics? Please define it and explain rather than throwing around mud.

And of all alliances I don't think FAnG can complain about dirty politics. 3 agreements with p3n. All 3 broken without warning (though the last one did kind of totter on). That is the kind of thing I would consider dirty politics, is it what you are thinking of?
Well id guess FAnG could/would claim that ND NAPed everyone else, and jumped FAnG with a 3 allie block?
Personaly i was rather unsatisfied with NDs politics for obvious reasons while we were sharing channels earlier this round, guess i allready explained why to you.
Also i know FAnG/ND had some sort of deal 2-300(?) ticks ago, no clue what happend to that.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 09:18   #326
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Booji I believe in this instance it isn't actually all about pingu for once and that dorf is referring to app when it comes to being the worst at breaking deals... also iirc fl have broken a good few deals in the rounds I've played (r59-present). It's fair to say most tags have all done a dirty in their time except maybe a handful.

Tbh I was actually surprised you guys in pingu didn't try your trick from a couple of rounds back, the one where a deal was ending at ptxxx and munkee decided to have his own meaning on it and that he could land attacks that tick
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 09:25   #327
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Ofc everyone has backstabbed someone in their time... particularly since different perceptions from each alliance tends to mean they view any particular incident differently.
However, this conversation came about from BB citing NDs top planets being brought down as an example of political karma. On that surely the best explanation is they are/were high ranked planets and most people like to xp at this point!
Any past betrayals are useful justification, but not really really the cause.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 09:39   #328
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Booji I believe in this instance it isn't actually all about pingu for once and that dorf is referring to app when it comes to being the worst at breaking deals... also iirc fl have broken a good few deals in the rounds I've played (r59-present). It's fair to say most tags have all done a dirty in their time except maybe a handful.
With Dorf having replied immediately after me, and me being the main representative of p3n on these boards (munks is rather sporadic in his posts) it made sense that he was replying to me, and therefore referring to p3n. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I cant say I follow FL politics but I agree that was their reputation a couple of rounds ago - particularly while nelito was in charge. I have however not noticed so much of that kind of backroom dealing and rapid changes in political orientation recently.

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Originally Posted by darkzidane View Post
Tbh I was actually surprised you guys in pingu didn't try your trick from a couple of rounds back, the one where a deal was ending at ptxxx and munkee decided to have his own meaning on it and that he could land attacks that tick
When we were negotiating with chimpie about the nap to tick 900 and we were unhappy with it being so long I did suggest to gm that it be inserted to the deal that tick 900 apply to landings not to launchings so that we could go on Tuesday evening. Gm responded that he always considered such deals to be about launch times, we are more flexible (need to try to remember to state which we mean in future). So yes we did consider doing that but having specified which was meant already we were not going to break it. Put simply if necessary we are sometimes willing to stretch things, or go through a loophole, but not outright break an agreement.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 10:01   #329
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
With Dorf having replied immediately after me, and me being the main representative of p3n on these boards (munks is rather sporadic in his posts) it made sense that he was replying to me, and therefore referring to p3n. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I cant say I follow FL politics but I agree that was their reputation a couple of rounds ago - particularly while nelito was in charge. I have however not noticed so much of that kind of backroom dealing and rapid changes in political orientation recently.


When we were negotiating with chimpie about the nap to tick 900 and we were unhappy with it being so long I did suggest to gm that it be inserted to the deal that tick 900 apply to landings not to launchings so that we could go on Tuesday evening. Gm responded that he always considered such deals to be about launch times, we are more flexible (need to try to remember to state which we mean in future). So yes we did consider doing that but having specified which was meant already we were not going to break it. Put simply if necessary we are sometimes willing to stretch things, or go through a loophole, but not outright break an agreement.
How is being hostile (launching at us) before the deal is over not breaking the deal?
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 10:19   #330
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
When we were negotiating with chimpie about the nap to tick 900 and we were unhappy with it being so long I did suggest to gm that it be inserted to the deal that tick 900 apply to landings not to launchings so that we could go on Tuesday evening. .
I think most people think of it being launching...

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero View Post
How is being hostile (launching at us) before the deal is over not breaking the deal?
... as eksero shows.
The idea that it is not specified so it might be either seems the worst sort of sophistry imo. And therefore likely to annoy people far more than the couple of ticks difference would warrant, for which reason best avoided.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 10:28   #331
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo
I think most people think of it being launching...



... as eksero shows.
The idea that it is not specified so it might be either seems the worst sort of sophistry imo. And therefore likely to annoy people far more than the couple of ticks difference would warrant, for which reason best avoided.
Why would it need to be specified? If we agree to not be hostile towards eachother until tick x and you decide to launch before that, you're breaking the deal no?

Unless of course you don't think launching attacks at eachother is being hostile
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 10:38   #332
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

This seems a silly objection from you eks. If it were specified in the deal that the time meant land tick not launch tick then it would make absolutely no difference to the hostility. It would be no more hostile than launching after tick 900. It was simply a proposal to get round tick 900 coming at a somewhat inconvenient time - as in practice given the way pa works you made a deal to tick 928 given how late the launches at tick 901 would be with cr it would be impractical. Since we wanted tick 800 choosing tick 900 was deeply disadvantageous for us and I am sure that chimpie knew it when negotiating.

Edit: also I am sure we (meaning the forums) have been through this before. Pa is sloppy in terms of its language. You use lt. Does it mean land tick or launch tick? I don't know so specify it in any deals. If not specified it can be either. You use 'hostile'. What does that mean? Is it hostile to launch a fleet you have no intention of landing? There is no contact, no conflict, no loss of ships. We could launch ships, you ignore because we have a 'nap' and ask us to recall. We recall eta 1. Was the nap broken? No it was resolved. Was it a hostile act by the alliance? No. It only becomes hostile when the alliance in question ignores the agreement and begins landing fleets. You should always specify that it is launching you mean. And if you really mean just launching irrevocably breaks the agreement then this needs to be specified too. Since we are talking about what was a cease fire there would clearly be no 'firing' until landing so land tick makes sense.
I know none of us do this (myself included) but this is in part because having a little wriggle room is good. We dont want a random member launching a random attack which he then recalls to destroy an agreement because it was too tightly worded. But you cant complain when that slight vagueness also allows an alliance to use it because it is within the agreement.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 11:00   #333
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
This seems a silly objection from you eks. If it were specified in the deal that the time meant land tick not launch tick then it would make absolutely no difference to the hostility. It would be no more hostile than launching after tick 900. It was simply a proposal to get round tick 900 coming at a somewhat inconvenient time - as in practice given the way pa works you made a deal to tick 928 given how late the launches at tick 901 would be with cr it would be impractical. Since we wanted tick 800 choosing tick 900 was deeply disadvantageous for us and I am sure that chimpie knew it when negotiating.

Edit: also I am sure we (meaning the forums) have been through this before. Pa is sloppy in terms of its language. You use lt. Does it mean land tick or launch tick? I don't know so specify it in any deals. If not specified it can be either. You use 'hostile'. What does that mean? Is it hostile to launch a fleet you have no intention of landing? There is no contact, no conflict, no loss of ships. We could launch ships, you ignore because we have a 'nap' and ask us to recall. We recall eta 1. Was the nap broken? No it was resolved. Was it a hostile act by the alliance? No. It only becomes hostile when the alliance in question ignores the agreement and begins landing fleets. You should always specify that it is launching you mean. And if you really mean just launching irrevocably breaks the agreement then this needs to be specified too. Since we are talking about what was a cease fire there would clearly be no 'firing' until landing so land tick makes sense.
I know none of us do this (myself included) but this is in part because having a little wriggle room is good. We dont want a random member launching a random attack which he then recalls to destroy an agreement because it was too tightly worded. But you cant complain when that slight vagueness also allows an alliance to use it because it is within the agreement.
When has people actually ever specified this? I suppose people could have started after the stun you guys pulled, but i've never in my time doing deals with people encountered anyone that actually specified that they want to land the tick the nap is over.

You however seem to prefer to have it that way, so it's pointless to keep discussing it, let's agree to disagree
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 11:01   #334
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Im not sure why eks responded to me in that way given I was clearly supporting his sentiment. It must be the presumption that I never say anything except to defend booji!

And yes booji, clearly if the agreement specified no landing before 900 that would allow launches from 891. But then the ordinary folk in the street would probably say thats a NAP to 891, not 900!
But if it wasnt said what was meant, then we automatically think of the red on our gal status as 'hostile' regardless of it landing.
If you specified no landing, but allowed launching, you could cause all sorts of trouble by escorting other alliances without breaking a deal yourselves!
I dont see that anyone would think such conduct was acceptable.

Yes clearly the timing of the ending played to ults advantage; but we could have not raided that night and not exposed ourselves to their FCs. Or could have daylight raided them - I dont see that it makes any difference what time of day we started, Ults defence efficiency doesnt drop off noticeably at night, all attacks on them are about going over their fleet capacity, so who cares if we launch at 8 am rather than 3 am.

[edit] Ultimately it surely comes back to our negotiating position at the end of the last round of hostilities - we wanted 800 but were not going to get it, if we wanted it badly enough we should have kept fighting. In practice we felt we were in the weaker position and had to accept what was offered.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 11:07   #335
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
This seems a silly objection from you eks. If it were specified in the deal that the time meant land tick not launch tick then it would make absolutely no difference to the hostility. It would be no more hostile than launching after tick 900. It was simply a proposal to get round tick 900 coming at a somewhat inconvenient time - as in practice given the way pa works you made a deal to tick 928 given how late the launches at tick 901 would be with cr it would be impractical. Since we wanted tick 800 choosing tick 900 was deeply disadvantageous for us and I am sure that chimpie knew it when negotiating.

Edit: also I am sure we (meaning the forums) have been through this before. Pa is sloppy in terms of its language. You use lt. Does it mean land tick or launch tick? I don't know so specify it in any deals. If not specified it can be either. You use 'hostile'. What does that mean? Is it hostile to launch a fleet you have no intention of landing? There is no contact, no conflict, no loss of ships. We could launch ships, you ignore because we have a 'nap' and ask us to recall. We recall eta 1. Was the nap broken? No it was resolved. Was it a hostile act by the alliance? No. It only becomes hostile when the alliance in question ignores the agreement and begins landing fleets. You should always specify that it is launching you mean. And if you really mean just launching irrevocably breaks the agreement then this needs to be specified too. Since we are talking about what was a cease fire there would clearly be no 'firing' until landing so land tick makes sense.
I know none of us do this (myself included) but this is in part because having a little wriggle room is good. We dont want a random member launching a random attack which he then recalls to destroy an agreement because it was too tightly worded. But you cant complain when that slight vagueness also allows an alliance to use it because it is within the agreement.
You make an agreement, "we are napped untill tick 900".
Which means any hostility before is breaking the agreement made, its like being able to launch fleets 8-10 ticks before breaking your ingame nap, no matter how you try to twist things. They just mean you are breaking deals early with an excuse that doesnt even make sense.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 11:20   #336
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

You need to come up with better argumentation than that. In this instance I was suggesting that it would be specifically included that it would be a land tick not a launch tick. You would know this, we would know this. Exactly as it should be. It would not be breaking the agreement, it would be making a better agreement that nicely specifies things.

When it is not specified you should not use your own assumptions as to norms to assume that others take the same assumption. If you do you are the one making a mistake. What would you do if there were a completely new alliance who did not follow any of these norms and conventions? It is fully within everyone's capability to specify which they mean rather than using sloppy language. Once you do everyone is much better bound. If we take what you just said "we are napped until tick 900" if that was the sum of what was said then I think you need to define napped - is this an ingame nap? if so this makes things much easier, you physically can't launch until tick 900. If not then what does it mean? No launching, no landing, not being on raids, are we just talking about hostile fleets, what about conspiring to get others to hit that alliance? Some could consider that to be the 'aggression' from non aggression pact. Specifics in the long run makes everyone happier because they know where they stand.

I am not a lawyer, or scholar of legal history, but I am sure that this is why legal agreements become long and tedious. Specificity means that both sides know exactly what they are getting rather than having something resting on unstated assumptions.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 11:21   #337
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
You make an agreement, "we are napped untill tick 900".
Which means any hostility before is breaking the agreement made, its like being able to launch fleets 8-10 ticks before breaking your ingame nap, no matter how you try to twist things. They just mean you are breaking deals early with an excuse that doesnt even make sense.
yes clearly that was what happened after all... we made that sort of agreement and stuck to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
When we were negotiating with chimpie about the nap to tick 900 and we were unhappy with it being so long I did suggest to gm that it be inserted to the deal that tick 900 apply to landings not to launchings so that we could go on Tuesday evening.
booji's point was that there was a thought of making the agreement so we could launch the night before... if it had been stated in the agreement that it was no landing before 900 and we landed 901 then that would not break the agreement.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 12:46   #338
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

The norm has always been that fleets wouldnt be showing before the expiry tick. Dont think that is debatebal.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 12:50   #339
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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So Dorf as with bb please state your definition and tell us what we have done to fill that definition rather than random mud throwing.
No need to feel attacked as I was not referring to pingu. But nice wall of text
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 14:00   #340
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

I did apologise for misinterpreting who you were referring to in my 2nd wall of text. And yes I do walls of text very well. Arguing requires explanation which takes plenty of writing. Otherwise things descend into namecalling too quickly and no one gets anywhere.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 14:21   #341
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

As an aside, we kind of thought we'd get inc 891, so were already grounded, so when that didn't materialize, than nothing really came at 900, kind of open up the ability for us to do those FCs, with so many idle fleets around. Worked out really well for us, in the end.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 16:59   #342
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
You need to come up with better argumentation than that. In this instance I was suggesting that it would be specifically included that it would be a land tick not a launch tick. You would know this, we would know this. Exactly as it should be. It would not be breaking the agreement, it would be making a better agreement that nicely specifies things.

When it is not specified you should not use your own assumptions as to norms to assume that others take the same assumption. If you do you are the one making a mistake. What would you do if there were a completely new alliance who did not follow any of these norms and conventions? It is fully within everyone's capability to specify which they mean rather than using sloppy language. Once you do everyone is much better bound. If we take what you just said "we are napped until tick 900" if that was the sum of what was said then I think you need to define napped - is this an ingame nap? if so this makes things much easier, you physically can't launch until tick 900. If not then what does it mean? No launching, no landing, not being on raids, are we just talking about hostile fleets, what about conspiring to get others to hit that alliance? Some could consider that to be the 'aggression' from non aggression pact. Specifics in the long run makes everyone happier because they know where they stand.

I am not a lawyer, or scholar of legal history, but I am sure that this is why legal agreements become long and tedious. Specificity means that both sides know exactly what they are getting rather than having something resting on unstated assumptions.
If 2 countries have a ceasefire and one starts attacks before it is over, you are breaking a deal. "No Aggression Pact" clearly if you have one of those, unless your "NAP" stands for something different. You are breaching the "No Aggression Pact", since clearly you agreed to not being aggressive untill a certain time.
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 17:03   #343
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

I havent read the last few pages, skimmed some of the replies but it is the same(5|-|17)thing over and over again.

Look, playing at a high level is draining and we are all older with lives that dont revolve around the internet and a game. Some even have kids that they want to spend time over some nameless strangers over the internet and of course all the trolls and lets not forget that some people act differently online where anonymity protects them over real life. Basically this means people dont want to go for the win all the time or rather play in smaller tags or have different goals. Deal with it and stop picking on them.
From my past experience going for the win is hard work and requires time and dedication. It is also very draining and not something I (and others) cant or want to do every round.

Now regarding ult and how they keep managing to pull wins after wins, good for them. They know what they are doing and the rest of us suck and dont. Lets be real, every single round (well maybe not every one but the majority of them) the other alliances that are not ult keep making the same mistake and expect a different outcome. If you give ult a little wiggle room they will exploit your mistakes and win. Letting them grow unhampered and get a roid lead that they can translate into a value lead will give them the win. Waiting till late in the round to hit them where they can just turtle gives them the win. Having them play their politics well enough to isolate the anti-ult block or minimize its members will give them the win. They have done that for several rounds and the rest of us, yes that includes me too, keep falling for it.

Do not hold ult responsible for being good at their game, look in the mirror. We all know how good they are so why is it that every time there is a anti-ult block it falls apart and squabbles, or worse yet (this really boggles the mind) members/alliances give up because they cant land them due to their awesome defense. Oh yeah giving up because they cant land and you expect things to change for the remaining part of the round. Lets face it, ult members are way more dedicated and can handle a beating in PA better than any other members/alliance. I have seen non-ult PA players whine and complain about not landing but I rarely see ult members complain about getting ganged up. They just hold on tight and wait for the anti-ult block and its members to implode which they do very often. It is very rare that the anti ult block will stay on ult for days (6+ days) without landing but still have the drive to continue. Ult knows this and its easy to get motivated as an ult member for 6+ days knowing that the anti-ult block not landing will frustrate the block and they will give up.

I dont know if this is a true quote from Albert Einstein and I am not bothering to google to verify but... "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Back to my small block and playing for fun and not the win
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Unread 28 Apr 2017, 23:36   #344
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
If 2 countries have a ceasefire and one starts attacks before it is over, you are breaking a deal. "No Aggression Pact" clearly if you have one of those, unless your "NAP" stands for something different. You are breaching the "No Aggression Pact", since clearly you agreed to not being aggressive untill a certain time.
I dont agree. Let us say Trump gives an aircraft carrier group in the Indian Ocean an order to sail to attack North Korea. They reach Taiwan and are ordered to turn around has an attack occured? No. They can even get all the way to the Korean coast. The attack does not occur until they launch missiles and combat begins. Now it is possible that the North Koreans will respond to the carrier group coming close with their own attacks beginning the combat phase but they dont have to. And the Americans still have a chance to change their minds until combat begins.

This is exactly the same. We launch. We can still recall. Combat does not occur. The big difference here is that in pa wars mostly consist of such manouvers rather than actual combat so it is more ambigious. As such your calling me into the real world if anything undermines your argument.

It would only not undermine your argument if you are in a situation where giving the order leads to instant combat. But we know that this is not the case in pa; there is always 7 hours in which to change your mind. We totally arbitrarily regard war as starting when we begin moving the pieces (what would be considered mobilization in the real world), not when the pieces reach their target. This is the opposite to the real world.

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Back to my small block and playing for fun and not the win
It has already been identified that a large part of the problem this round is that no one except ult is playing for the win and are only playing for fun. As such there is no one who has reason to as you say keep "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 00:26   #345
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
I dont agree. Let us say Trump gives an aircraft carrier group in the Indian Ocean an order to sail to attack North Korea. They reach Taiwan and are ordered to turn around has an attack occured? No. They can even get all the way to the Korean coast. The attack does not occur until they launch missiles and combat begins. Now it is possible that the North Koreans will respond to the carrier group coming close with their own attacks beginning the combat phase but they dont have to. And the Americans still have a chance to change their minds until combat begins.

This is exactly the same. We launch. We can still recall. Combat does not occur. The big difference here is that in pa wars mostly consist of such manouvers rather than actual combat so it is more ambigious. As such your calling me into the real world if anything undermines your argument.

It would only not undermine your argument if you are in a situation where giving the order leads to instant combat. But we know that this is not the case in pa; there is always 7 hours in which to change your mind. We totally arbitrarily regard war as starting when we begin moving the pieces (what would be considered mobilization in the real world), not when the pieces reach their target. This is the opposite to the real world.


It has already been identified that a large part of the problem this round is that no one except ult is playing for the win and are only playing for fun. As such there is no one who has reason to as you say keep "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
So what if you decide to escort other alliances on to our planet while we still have an agreement? I mean, you'd be launching, but not landing, right? Would that be all good in your books as well, as apparently you haven't been hostile yet?
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 00:39   #346
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I dont agree. Let us say Trump gives an aircraft carrier group in the Indian Ocean an order to sail to attack North Korea. They reach Taiwan and are ordered to turn around has an attack occured? No. They can even get all the way to the Korean coast. The attack does not occur until they launch missiles and combat begins. Now it is possible that the North Koreans will respond to the carrier group coming close with their own attacks beginning the combat phase but they dont have to. And the Americans still have a chance to change their minds until combat begins.

This is exactly the same. We launch. We can still recall. Combat does not occur. The big difference here is that in pa wars mostly consist of such manouvers rather than actual combat so it is more ambigious. As such your calling me into the real world if anything undermines your argument.

It would only not undermine your argument if you are in a situation where giving the order leads to instant combat. But we know that this is not the case in pa; there is always 7 hours in which to change your mind. We totally arbitrarily regard war as starting when we begin moving the pieces (what would be considered mobilization in the real world), not when the pieces reach their target. This is the opposite to the real world.


It has already been identified that a large part of the problem this round is that no one except ult is playing for the win and are only playing for fun. As such there is no one who has reason to as you say keep "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
By that definition, an alliance with a NAP with you could escort another alliance against you, but as long as they don't land, its not breaking the NAP. Logically you have to def vs the entire incoming, which means there really is no point in having a NAP in the first place. Guess its time to get rid of NAPs?
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 02:12   #347
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Booji is right there, ultores is the only alliance playing ftw, rest of us are tired, bored and have priorities in that real world thingie. The block isnt fighting ultores to give someone the win, we are doing it because what else is there to do, at least make them earn it. I think the most fun anyone in the block had was when we were all napped to ultores and could play the game with people on our level.
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 05:45   #348
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eksero View Post
So what if you decide to escort other alliances on to our planet while we still have an agreement? I mean, you'd be launching, but not landing, right? Would that be all good in your books as well, as apparently you haven't been hostile yet?
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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
By that definition, an alliance with a NAP with you could escort another alliance against you, but as long as they don't land, its not breaking the NAP. Logically you have to def vs the entire incoming, which means there really is no point in having a NAP in the first place. Guess its time to get rid of NAPs?
You lot seem to have lost the plot...
booji was originally arguing for more careful and concise terms for agreements, I presume you think you are arguing against him but you actually demonstrate exactly why it is necessary.
Suffice to say if you had a NAP based on landing times, a no escorting clause would be included, and it certainly wouldnt be forgotten as you two show by both coming to the same conclusion... although well behind me since I included the objection in my first post on this NAP terms section off this thread
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 07:23   #349
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
You lot seem to have lost the plot...
booji was originally arguing for more careful and concise terms for agreements, I presume you think you are arguing against him but you actually demonstrate exactly why it is necessary.
Suffice to say if you had a NAP based on landing times, a no escorting clause would be included, and it certainly wouldnt be forgotten as you two show by both coming to the same conclusion... although well behind me since I included the objection in my first post on this NAP terms section off this thread
But...why? I mean why would such legalese be needed, when, by definition, a NAP is a Non Aggression Pack. Agression, by definition, is a hostile or violent behavior, and by definition hostile is unfriendly or antagonistic. To me, the terms are in the name itself. We shouldn't have to bring harvard educated lawyers in just to tell someone not to piss on the other team until the tick agreed upon. :/
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Unread 29 Apr 2017, 08:18   #350
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Re: R71 Prediction, drama, and fun thread.

Because as booji has pointed out there is a gap between launch and actual hostilities - You say aggression occurs at the moment of launch but thats a sort of literal interpretation that is unsustainable when thought of more broadly:
Aggression as your sole criteria for a breach would mean the agreement would be broken by cov ops, or by any defence of one party, say ingal, against the other (intent to fight on behalf of a third party). Neither of these are normally understood as being against a NAP.

The original argument started by someone saying ND had 'played dirty' this round. No-one ever clarified what that actually meant, but it is fair to say that a significant proportion of PA agreement breakdowns are because the two sides disagree on what they thought the terms were.
Probably this is usually as simple as 'retals are/are not allowed' in an avoidance agreement, rather than splitting hairs over what NAP means.
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