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1 Dec 2007, 11:39
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#1
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Autonomous
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 125
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Salvage
I have probably misread something somewhere but:
http://parser.lch-hq.org/index.php?s...25491196504992
I have just lost 11800 chimera in a battle report at my planet as a defender. The total resource cost of the destroyed ships was therefore 11, 832, 000 resources.
I am terran so I get a race bonus of 20%. The top 20 average score at the time was approximately 2.7M and my score is 2M.
The salvage I should have received is therefore 11, 832, 000 * 0.3 * 1.4 * 1.125 which gives a value of approximately 5.6M resources.
Yet I only received 2,348,658 resources.
Have I worked this out correctly, and has anyone got any idea why this is the case? I havent even included the resources from the 'killed' clippers in my calculations.
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1 Dec 2007, 11:45
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#2
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
The new salvage rules completely threw me off my balance, I have no idea what to expect any more. So even though they may (keyword, I really don't have an opinion on it) be better for the game, it's nullifying that by being too complex.
I vote for removing it again for next round.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Dec 2007, 12:23
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#3
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xVx techie
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Norway
Posts: 52
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The new salvage rules completely threw me off my balance, I have no idea what to expect any more. So even though they may (keyword, I really don't have an opinion on it) be better for the game, it's nullifying that by being too complex.
I vote for removing it again for next round.
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I agree. You never know what you get any more.
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1 Dec 2007, 18:22
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#4
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Planetarion Forum Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,289
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Re: Salvage
He only got salvage from the dead enemy ships, you receive no salvage for your own ships being stolen.
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Romans 10:9-10
#strategy
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1 Dec 2007, 18:23
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#5
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ND for life
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 94
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Re: Salvage
I don't know what is so complicated about it, other than maybe the score modifier. The only things that have changed are that and the fact that salvage for lost ships for the defender is given to the person who lost the ships. The salvage bonuses for terran/cath might have been introduced this round as well but that doesn't increase complexity much either.
Also I don't see why salvage being complicated is a reason to remove the new features. I don't know when you'd ever need to calculate exactly how much salvage you will get and most battlecalcs will give you a rough idea as to how much you can expect to get (I think it's never less than the bcalc says).
__________________
'Soaring where angels fear to fly'
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1 Dec 2007, 21:20
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#6
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
He only got salvage from the dead enemy ships, you receive no salvage for your own ships being stolen.
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Er? So you're sayin that if my entire fleets gets blocked and stolen, I get no salvage whatsoever? I'm sorry, but that's both retarded and untrue.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Dec 2007, 21:48
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 255
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Er? So you're sayin that if my entire fleets gets blocked and stolen, I get no salvage whatsoever? I'm sorry, but that's both retarded and untrue.
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as i understand it, you get the salvage from the ships that die stealing your own, but no actual salvage from the ships you lose, as they don't actually die just get half inched etc.
EDIT: looking at the manual it says you recieve salvage for destroyed/lost ships in combat, and if i remember correctly stolen ships don't count as destroyed/lost ships, though perhaps the terminology could be clearer as it doesn't specifically mention whether ships that get stolen in defence contribute to the salvage.
__________________
[F-Crew], Wolfpack, Destiny, Urwins, Ascendancy & Jenova
-Cead
Last edited by Ceadrath; 1 Dec 2007 at 21:53.
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1 Dec 2007, 22:17
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#8
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
Looks like I was wrong indeed. It's not untrue, but it is retarded.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Dec 2007, 23:02
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#9
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: saved your ass
Posts: 194
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Re: Salvage
increasing salvage for 1 side firing or so wouldnt be untrue
compensate for fact of time needed to defend whitout having salvage
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2 Dec 2007, 03:45
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#10
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
la récupération croissante pour 1 mise à feu latérale ou ainsi n serait pas fausse
compensez le fait de l'heure nécessaire de défendre snas avoir la récupération
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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2 Dec 2007, 03:54
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#11
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: saved your ass
Posts: 194
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Re: Salvage
from being a mainly lonely player i can tell that you get load of attack from small player whn you attack them. good player will get cover op to hurt player that want to be to ruff and doest have the bak for it.
usualy get in gal help if you help them , so happen a few time that we trash a 5 M fleet to end whit to few salvage for a 100% fleet .
pour se joindre a vous , ce n est que logic que les pilotes puisse attacker certaine parti du vaisseau. permetant de ne pas trop abimer les vaisseau designer.(scorpion should kill fi , since it not hard for a bs , and that why the made (cruiser) actualy)
a 33% would be fair
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2 Dec 2007, 14:31
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#12
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Autonomous
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 125
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Looks like I was wrong indeed. It's not untrue, but it is retarded.
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I agree here. If a planets fleet gets stolen as it was in the battle report then the base salvage is only 15% (since its the attackers fleet that has 'died'). I dont really see how it matters to a defending planet whether their ships were killed or were stolen - they are still in the same position of having lost x amount of ships.
All fleet catches should really be done with zik steal ships if possible then - it will limit the amount that the defender can rebuild the ships he has just lost.
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2 Dec 2007, 14:47
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#13
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: saved your ass
Posts: 194
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Re: Salvage
zik and cath , would only wreck enemies fleet , but make the balance unstable as alaince matter , even if attack just sent part of theyr fleet both
and i dont what about what your saying , fleet catch are pain in the ass since only small , non top allaince player can be fleet catched.
maybe a increase in salvage , 35% if the whole fleet is destroyed .let the player have a chace at staying in top 400-500
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2 Dec 2007, 21:04
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#14
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfection
I agree here. If a planets fleet gets stolen as it was in the battle report then the base salvage is only 15% (since its the attackers fleet that has 'died'). I dont really see how it matters to a defending planet whether their ships were killed or were stolen - they are still in the same position of having lost x amount of ships.
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The difference, however, is that the ships have not been lost from the game. If the game gives salvage for ships that simply trade hands then it's essentially creating something out of nothing and opens a window for abuse. You don't want to create a situation where allies could steal ships from each other and gain salvage in the process (specifically, more salvage than their losses).
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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2 Dec 2007, 21:19
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#15
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
The difference, however, is that the ships have not been lost from the game. If the game gives salvage for ships that simply trade hands then it's essentially creating something out of nothing and opens a window for abuse. You don't want to create a situation where allies could steal ships from each other and gain salvage in the process (specifically, more salvage than their losses).
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Your argument punishes everyone who loses ships to stealers in order to suppress (ineffectively, at that) a small group of cheaters.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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2 Dec 2007, 23:09
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#16
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Your argument punishes everyone who loses ships to stealers in order to suppress (ineffectively, at that) a small group of cheaters.
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Yes it does; but if stealing were to yield a significant net gain then it might not be such a small group.
It's axiomatic that players will seek out advantages and unfortunately in my experience they won't always stay within the rules to do so. Sometimes the only way to control the cheating is to eliminate--or greatly reduce--the advantage.
PA's history is littered with rule changes intended to help the 'unfortunate' but which had to be yanked because they were exploited by the 'fortunate.' On the other hand, maybe the hunter-to-player ratio is high enough now that enforcing the rules is no longer a problem.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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2 Dec 2007, 23:21
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#17
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Ensign
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 23
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Re: Salvage
I can't find the logic in this one at all.
When a zik defends, he gets 25 % (+ score bonus) salvage from the ships dying from stealing afaik, even if there is no value loss on his side.
The right solution would, in my opinion, be that those who gets ships stolen by attacking ziks should get 25 % salvage back, and defending ziks should not get more than 15 % salvage which corresponds to kill salvage for the attacking stolen ships.
__________________
I came. I saw. I didn't understand what was going on. I left.
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4 Dec 2007, 02:24
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 386
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delver
I can't find the logic in this one at all.
When a zik defends, he gets 25 % (+ score bonus) salvage from the ships dying from stealing afaik, even if there is no value loss on his side.
The right solution would, in my opinion, be that those who gets ships stolen by attacking ziks should get 25 % salvage back, and defending ziks should not get more than 15 % salvage which corresponds to kill salvage for the attacking stolen ships.
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And why on earth nerf the zik even more...
__________________
Adapt has never been an official ND HC. He was on his way to promotion for some reason, but then got denied promotion. Lol at the muppet claiming he has been
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4 Dec 2007, 02:32
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#19
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: Salvage
What do you mean "even more".
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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4 Dec 2007, 14:57
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#20
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly
And why on earth nerf the zik even more...
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If there is an issue with the stats making ziks relatively weak, fix it with the stats. Dont fit it with.... Salvage. Or Research Bonuses. Or some other arcane thing that used to be popular, like PDS* or universal trade bonuses.
Whilst its true that receiving no salvage from stolen ships is "retarded" or at least defies the principle of having salavage in the first place; ie, to permit players who loose their fleet or ships from their fleet to partially rebuild using resources from salvage, the simple fact is that the game will be creating something from nothing as those ships still exist (lo Tac, been a while!! ). Essentially, if you're looking for a more "fair" system, some amount of "stolen" ships being destroyed rather than stolen (thus generating salave) in addition to the present system of loosing stealers after xy value (or armour, etc) stolen could be an alternative. Or, devise something out of the box that is more fair, assuming that you can avoid the "something from nothing" problem, and generating salvage for those whose fleets have been stolen and are left with nothing, then i think it will definately get some serious consideration.
*God, i hope i didnt just open a pandora's box there!
__________________
#Strategy ; #Support - Sovereign
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"The Cake is a Lie."
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4 Dec 2007, 20:46
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#21
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Autonomous
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 125
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
The difference, however, is that the ships have not been lost from the game. If the game gives salvage for ships that simply trade hands then it's essentially creating something out of nothing and opens a window for abuse. You don't want to create a situation where allies could steal ships from each other and gain salvage in the process (specifically, more salvage than their losses).
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Fair point of course. However, such an exploit is already covered by numerous laws on cheating. And it already exists within the game at the moment anyway - a defending zik will get salvage for his 'killed' ships at 30% plus his 'stolen' ships at a value of 100% therefore making 130% when defending a planet. Is this not also creating something out of nothing?
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9 Dec 2007, 22:02
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#22
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Salvage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfection
And it already exists within the game at the moment anyway - a defending zik will get salvage for his 'killed' ships at 30% plus his 'stolen' ships at a value of 100% therefore making 130% when defending a planet. Is this not also creating something out of nothing?
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No.
That's like saying "When I kill ships for 0 losses and gain salvage I'm creating resources".
The attacking ships die. Total universe resources decrease.
I assume that some of the posters want some sort of custom hack where you're a defender and you get ships stolen to get salvage from them.
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r8-10 RaH r10.5-12 MISTU
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