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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 16:51   #1
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Round 24 "stats"

Return of multiple targets...it's been so long since we've had this, I can't say for sure whether it's good or bad. I got used to single targetting, and I think it made the game more interesting on the whole. Guess we'll find out...DC's will have to step up :/

As I normally play Xan, I'll comment on that race specifically. There seems to be a continuing trend of Xan initiatives going up with each passing round; unfortunately this round is no different. Their Fighter fleet seems pretty well useless against Terrans, though not too bad against everyone else.

I guess the Pulsar is finally dead.

The Frigate fleet looks pretty good, and now with the Ghost having a lower initiative than the Wyvern, Terran BS fleets are (somewhat) more manageable. The Syren is a wildcard though, and with the Nightmare targetting Destroyers before Cruisers, adding some to a DE fleet will cause problems for Xans--despite the increase in ETA it would probably be worth it. Adding them to a BS fleet will prove to be quite deadly, and quite effective.

For that matter, I may just go Terran next round




Anyway, let the comments fly!
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 17:13   #2
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

i've only had a quick look at the stats but i would have to agree with you that terran does look quite good

i'm not too sure if i like the idea of multiple targeting being back but i gotta admit the idea of it is kinda growing on me
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 17:20   #3
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

It goes open up more strategies which i think is good, it was getting very one dimensial the last rounds
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Unread 26 Oct 2007, 19:19   #4
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I’m not really convinced about the strength of Terrans. Their attack fleets are easy to stop. Each of their attack fleets can be defended by the alliance without being targetted back. Terran De can be stopped by Spider, Scarab, Nightmare, Thief and Vendor as alliance def. 3 of those are not even targetted. Terran Bs has the same problem with the Viper and can also be defended well with Chimera’s, Ghosts and Rangers.
I like the Cathaar attack a lot more. The problem they have is that they are the most obvious target if you want zero loss roids.
Xan have truly awesome attackfleets that target anything an alliance can send against it in defence. They are somewhat vulnerable to Cathaar, but not more so than others. If this doesn’t change then I’ve made my pick.
Zik just lack credible attack fleets. Anything they attack with dies because of their poor initiative. Against Cathaar they don’t have good enough emp resistance.
I do like Etd somewhat. Their attack fleets are not great, but I think they will do well defending their roids.
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 02:57   #5
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

this means just that ppl will not attack with one class only, they will put in their fleet like DE with FR and then attack. So attack wise its changed also, that means also not sending 2 attackfleets out. except for xan because fake attacks . but we will see what round will bring this time
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 04:02   #6
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

On a brief note.

It makes things less obvious.

It makes it less probable or even impossible to generate a single "winner solution" as there are more counteroptions.

It might make it too complicated.

It might end up generating an ultimate ship or ultimate fleet that can respond to anything very strongly (thief for zero-loss stolen terran destroyers).
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 20:45   #7
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Is anything being done to fix the blatant unbalanced stats?
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 23:13   #8
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

no point going terran, i'll just beat you anyway
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Unread 28 Oct 2007, 23:19   #9
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Is anything being done to fix the blatant unbalanced stats?
Maybe they're busy fixing the combat engine bro.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 01:10   #10
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I'll be surprised (and impressed) if Pa team have come up with the final stats on their first attempt (before public beta).
Which race to go will depend on the universe composition.
Ziks appear quite weak, but if there is a lot of Terrans, they could steal a big DE fleet early on with their Thieves.
Cath may have a hard time firing at their T2, as their T1 will be heavily flaked to prevent it. In more complicated battles, the easy option of attacking Cath will convince even more players.
On aside note, Caths have now only 1 kill ship and it doesn't shoot at any of the xans ships...
Xans seem the best choice at this point, but in a universe with 50% Xan (as it is in the beta) there will be more Xan on Xan battles and they are deadly.
Etd doesn't look too good at first glance, but I feel there is away to play them... still have to figure how.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 07:18   #11
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

the stats seem fairly interesting and had fun in the beta (also allowed me to get a tick plan done) only race that doesn't seem balanced is ETD attack fleets are underpowered. defense wise OK Terran 183(25%) Cathaar 120(16%) Xandathrii 209(28%) Zikonian 149(20%) Eitraides 70(9%) I think the distribution of the races amongst the players would indicate this this. Suggestion to the ETD fleet... Increase the armour on the CR class. Change the dealer from De class to Co (even make the dealer target t1 co and t2 fi) then make the voyager Emp instead of kill, makes roiding a bit easier and a bit more fun.
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Unread 29 Oct 2007, 10:02   #12
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

zik lack a decent roidfleet also..
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Unread 30 Oct 2007, 01:43   #13
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobbe
zik lack a decent roidfleet also..
Good, ziks are supposed to steal ships to build their roiding fleet.
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Unread 30 Oct 2007, 08:02   #14
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Its not exactly been easy to steal useful ships the last rounds though, especially if your relatively big. The only option is hide ships in prod and pray you get the inc you need.
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Unread 30 Oct 2007, 09:53   #15
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Ziks should get their old steeling abilities back with these stats.
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Unread 30 Oct 2007, 19:18   #16
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buly
Ziks should get their old steeling abilities back with these stats.
Erm... the fact using correct fakes means you could essentially steal ships for free anyway?

I think if we went back to how old ziks work (stealing without loss). it would be like.. suck.
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Unread 30 Oct 2007, 19:23   #17
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

The latest updates dont seem to help much im afraid, gonna be a tedious round
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Unread 31 Oct 2007, 13:06   #18
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
The latest updates dont seem to help much im afraid, gonna be a tedious round
elaborate?

been too busy to play beta, and just glanced at the stats, so I wont comment ( yet )
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Unread 31 Oct 2007, 14:30   #19
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Well there were a few more updates, but it still looks liek theres a few races that stick out ahead of the pack
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Unread 31 Oct 2007, 17:18   #20
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I just analysed stats a bit, i am probably completely wrong on some points

Terran
Attack:
DE ==> Mass de can overcome cat/etd emping, but is a bad choice
DE ==> Terran with low syren
CR/BS ==> Using Syren as flak, Terran BS can attack Xan
BS ==> A big BS fleet can overcome ETD emping

Defense:
Weakness:
FI:
Pegasus Take care of Xan Fi fleets, unless they are prepared to throw in some co as canon meet

CO:
Pegasus shoots nicely on Co

FR:
Cat Fr cld come for you With A teamup to scare of your wyvern

FR/DE :
Xan fr + DE will most probably see you as their best target

DE:
With both Chimera and Buccaneer shooting before Wyvern Terran is hittable by DE
==> having enough Syrens provides an answer or way to scare attackers off

CR:
Etd that are preparred to take some losses from your small de fleet including zik might see u as a target for their CR. With the ranger stunning your dragon they might be right

Cat cr could come for you (they'll need to emp you tough as they always do)

Cathaar
Attack:
FR: ==> Cat with low amount of Roach
==> Decent amount of bw makes it possible to attack smaller xan
==> Terran before BS comes out
==> With zik co being their roiding fleet – cutters prolly would get trough on you
==> etd is a good target if you have enough fr to overcome it's Vendor

CR ( Cruisers are very cheap and this is noticed by the dmg they do etc.)
==> A big enough CR fleet can take on terrans
==> Xans with low amount of spectre might be worth the losses for their roids
==> With buccaneers shooting before your tulas, zik might not be your best choice
==> Etd Ranger and tycoon will target your cr before your tulas get a chance to do anything.
Altho with only 60% efficiency, i think ETD cr are stronger then cat cr

Defense:
Weakness:
EVERYTHING (except maybe cr/bs with that tula)


Xandathrii
Attack:
FI: ==> mass fi fleets can hit ziks/etd with low amounts of co
==> mass fi fleets may overcome cat emping

FR ==> cat, etd

FR/DE ==> with spectre killing off wyvern, it is possible to take out terran targets


Weakness:
BS:
==> spectre shoot syren before they shoot wyvern, some terrans might find the losses worth your roids

CR: ==> Build enough spectre/shadow to kill of emping CR

FR: ==> CAT Fr might like you

CO: ==> big zik/etd co(with fi support maybe) can take out you precious fi


Zikonian
Attack:
CO:
==> A nice and decent sized co fleet can get through the cathaar bw's
==> If u are preparred to take some losses, attacking a xan might not be a bad idea

DE: ==> Your buccs will pwn Terran Wyvern
==> emping your de might proove difficult for cathaar
==> If you steal pegasus, bam suddenly xan becomes a target!
==> ETD if u get past the vendor

==> various combos possible as soon as you steal ships
xan/etd co won't hurt your co fleet when hitting xans

Weakness:
fi: ==> big fi whoring xans will eat your co alive
Fr: ==> cats with enough BW
FR/DE ==> xans with huge fr/de fleets might love you


etd
Attack:
Co:
==> A nice and decent sized co fleet can get through the cathaar bw's
==> If u are preparred to take some losses, attacking a xan might not be a bad idea
CR: (ETD Cr are stronger then Cathaar CR)
==> With a decent built CR fleet you should be possible to take Terrans and stn their dragons
==> xans with low spectre/shadow
==> ziks with low buccaneer

Weakness:
Fi:
==> large xan fi fleets might be a threat

CO: ==> Altough a decent amount of dealer should protect your from zik co incs, maybe some might attack u

FR: ==> Xan fr will eat ya alive

De: ==> IF de fleets get trough your vendor emp they will probably hurt you (certainly buc/drake)

CR: ==> with 3 classes shooting on cr in t1 or t2 u should be fine

BS ==> a big bs fleet might overtake your emping
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Unread 31 Oct 2007, 18:15   #21
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Its really hard to decide on race now imo, each race has some pros and cons which kinda makes the race choice up to what kind of player you are.
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Unread 31 Oct 2007, 18:19   #22
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I am rather concerned about ship costs. As it stands, Terran pretty much has an exclusive on ships costing more than 1k res (the only non-Terran combat ship over 1k is the Rogue). The Leviathan costs between 6 and 9(!) times as much as any other non-Terran Battleship, while the Drake clocks in at 3 to 6 times as much as other Destroyers. Syren costs 4 to 6 times as much and the Chimera is similarly afflicted, 2 to 4 times as much. Combine these stats with above average armor and EMP resistance, and you'll see that this makes the game extremely vulnerable to flakking, to such an extent that I'm thinking something should be done to restore balance at least a little bit.

Allow me to illustrate this with an example.

link

In this calc, even though the Terran and Zikonian sent the same value in fleet, the Zikonian loses 4.5 times as much as the Terran does (62k and 14k, respectively), and that's including the stolen Shadow. If the Zikonian pulls his fleet, the Terran suddenly loses 61k. The problem would be even more pronounced with Battleships, but fortunately Terran has an exclusive on that fleet, so it doesn't matter as much.

I understand Terran are famous for big sturdy ships, but this is ****ing batshit insane. So fix it.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 00:33   #23
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I am rather concerned about ship costs. ....
I understand Terran are famous for big sturdy ships, but this is ****ing batshit insane. So fix it.
You can't look at the costs, you have to look at the Armour per unit cost and damage per unit cost. As long as those numbers are relatively in line there isn't a problem. When you do that analysis terran armor is rather high, but when you look at their damage it is rather low. So while there is only one ship in the stats that have a higher a/c (broker) then the weakest terran ship (harpy) there is also only a hand full of ships that have lower d/c then the best terran ship (drake).

While the numbers may be a bit out of line, they are not seriously out of line. The other thing you have to factor in is the statsanalysis page which has all kinds of useful balance testing info. So the moral is: don't judge things based on one set of unnormalized data, look at all the data before you get upset.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 01:09   #24
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

No, you're wrong, that's completely irrelevant to my point. Guns are allocated by number, not by armor. Past experience and the calc I did show that clearly.

P.S. make the Scorpion a kill ship, for great justice. Xan can use a little nerf, and at the same time Cat can use a little boost.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 01:16   #25
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

no. the point he's making ( i think! ) is that because of the way that the combat engine distibute's emp/damage on fleets taking part in combat based on ship #'s, it makes the emp/damage dealt to ships with a lot fewer number that have a much higher emp res/arm is a lot less than a ship of the same class that is less costly but has a lower emp res/arm. His point therefore is that flakking ter de fleets with zik de will make it very difficult to do any real damage to the ter fleet, as the numerically larger zik de fleet will soak up a much higher precentage of the targetting.

EDIT: beaten to it
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 02:38   #26
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Latest changes has completely killed the Xans... when you consider that now Ziks has 2 kill ships with better init than their xan counterpart it gives you an idea of the mess.
Even Etd has a kill ship firing before any Xan ship...
If you kill the Xans initiative, compensate it with armour plz.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 03:07   #27
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

You mean the Buccaneer, which fires at Cr/Bs and the Cutter, which is both weak and fragile, and only fires at Fr at 60% efficiency? And the Tycoon, which isn't even in the primary roiding fleet and fires at De/Cr? Yeah, those ships are a real threat to Xans!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 21:49   #28
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by berten
stuff
dont forget that Etd have tycoon that eat DE as popcorn.


Please dont quote a long post only to reply with a one line answer, its messy. Thankyou -UN

Last edited by Ultimate Newbie; 1 Nov 2007 at 23:21.
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Unread 1 Nov 2007, 23:28   #29
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
You can't look at the costs, you have to look at the Armour per unit cost and damage per unit cost.
That was essentially irrelevent to his point.

Quote:
While the numbers may be a bit out of line, they are not seriously out of line.
This was the topic of discussion; whether the costs of terran ships were high enough so that they were out of line. It was argued that they were, as Mzy and Cederath have explained subsequently.


Frankly, i think that terran ships are becoming a little too pricey; it wouldnt be anywhere near as bad if they had low armour, but they dont - they've the highest, resulting in examples where Terran ships escorted will essentially win for free. Whether this is a good thing or not depends, but i think it might be time to redress the balance a little bit.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 04:04   #30
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Are they trying to remove xan from the game?
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 11:55   #31
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

You're an idiot if you think Xan is weak.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 12:01   #32
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're an idiot if you think Xan is weak.
They are weak, you're the idiot!

Init lower than most, wide range of targetting = bad.

right?
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 17:23   #33
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Race Count (%) Best Planet Score Rank
Terran 328(25%) criminal OF minds (2:5:14) 40,659 9
Cathaar 222(17%) Gravity OF Black Hole (1:4:8) 43,070 1
Xandathrii 347(27%) Wk OF Far Away (2:2:7) 42,028 2
Zikonian 309(24%) kill OF killer (2:6:46) 41,481 5
Eitraides 74(5%) Burning Flame OF Desire (2:8:5) 39,604 32

Apparantly people think that Xan are good. And very few people seem to like Eitraides. I didn't think them to be THAT bad.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 17:42   #34
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're an idiot if you think Xan is weak.
It is weak
Your the idiot.
I am xan
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 20:03   #35
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

no matter if xans are weak or not Mzyxptlk is an idiot for regularly posting rude comments and lacking elementary tolerance towards other's opinions.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 23:46   #36
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I tolerate idiots, so don't worry.

Also, Gerbie2 is right, Etd is not that bad, but the fact that they have so few players significantly weakens them. This in turn weakens Cat Cr and Zik Co, although Zik partly makes up because many players picked it.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 12:40   #37
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

xan is ****ing awesome
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Unread 6 Nov 2007, 19:38   #38
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Multiple targeting is stupid because it has no depth.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 00:48   #39
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
They are weak, you're the idiot!

Init lower than most, wide range of targetting = bad.

right?
http://sandmans.co.uk/?p=racestats

Those poor xans

Anyone want to venture as to why xan are so good this round?
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 07:14   #40
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Cause the round has barely started and xan always own the start?
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 09:18   #41
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're an idiot if you think Xan is weak.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 09:19   #42
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Cause the round has barely started and xan always own the start?
I hope that was sarcasm.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 11:58   #43
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Are you saying xans dont tend to start of well due to their cloaking ability?
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 12:22   #44
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

I'm saying that xans tend to get bigger during the late round while (usually) only few caths survive.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 14:00   #45
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Cause the round has barely started and xan always own the start?
What exactly do you foresee roiding all these massive xans without suiciding?
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 16:44   #46
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Nothing. That was basically the point of that post of mine that Hude quoted.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 18:52   #47
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Etd cr\bs(which aint around much), aswell as nasty xp whores and huge caths.
There is a reason xan is prolly the best race.
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Unread 12 Nov 2007, 19:16   #48
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Etd cr\bs(which aint around much)
This just isn't true. Reread the stats heh. Xan fr destroys etd cr.

Quote:
aswell as nasty xp whores
Agreed but this affects everyone.

Quote:
and huge caths.
To be honest good xans should be able to look at stats and realise that the banshee, despite the initiative disadvantage is a much better ship than the bomber considering phantom/illusion flakking advantages. And with cath cr needing to stun a whole attack fleet and then a decent number of the widely built spectre with T2 I doubt you'll see that many roiding xans late round except for pointless suicides.
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Unread 13 Nov 2007, 04:44   #49
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

A surprise for me is how good the Cutlass is. I was expecting a hard time vs xan incs... not so. Despite the initiative disadvantage, they don't take a beating, and the surviving ships really decimate the opposition.
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Unread 14 Nov 2007, 08:22   #50
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Re: Round 24 "stats"

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Cause the round has barely started and xan always own the start?
Whilst that's generally true, its rare that they would be dominating as much as they presently are. Further, the total absense of Cath domination at such an early stage is also unusual. Ziks arent too far behind, though - i wonder what that will mean later in the round when Ziks tend to outperform the others?
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