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16 Jun 2007, 10:19
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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R22 stats
Is the R22 stats 'final' now?
This thread is to discuss and come forth with your own wievs in.
Cant say i think theyre much better than R21s stats but suppose thats to be expected with the same person in charge again.
I have to say I think ziks will find next round much harder than last, it wasnt a easy job to manouver up the ranks last round and this round imo ziks are worse defwise and perhaps a little better attackwise. I like the ability that Rogue now steals DE, but im fearing that the huge amount of co\fr incs(and pretty much every other class cept DE) really will make the ziks struggle.
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16 Jun 2007, 10:36
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#2
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: R22 stats
Link?
Quote:
Cant say i think theyre much better than R21s stats but suppose thats to be expected with the same person in charge again.
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Why was I under the impression that someone else was working on them?
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16 Jun 2007, 10:40
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: R22 stats
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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16 Jun 2007, 10:44
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#4
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: R22 stats
The stats look fine tbh. Im satisfied with it.
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16 Jun 2007, 10:46
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: R22 stats
And whatproblems has the adressed and fixed?
The most noticable is perhaps the merchant as co, which he actually 'stole' from a different set of stats.
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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16 Jun 2007, 10:50
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 531
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Link?
Why was I under the impression that someone else was working on them?
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Monroe came back at the last minute, Appoco for some reason still thinks Monroe is capable, I've no idea why.
These stats are quite simply 'awful'.
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16 Jun 2007, 14:16
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#7
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Monroe came back at the last minute, Appoco for some reason still thinks Monroe is capable, I've no idea why.
These stats are quite simply 'awful'.
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In what way are they awful?
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16 Jun 2007, 14:18
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: R22 stats
Possibly for the first time since I can remember I probably wont go zik based on these stats.
P.s. they are horrible
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16 Jun 2007, 14:32
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#9
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Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
In what way are they awful?
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Etd are still way overpowered.
Xan are still vulnerable to too many classes.
Terran and Cat aren't really fixed at all.
All that's really happened is some of the efficiencies have been modified slightly in line with Monroe's unilateral thinking on how he could fix his previous statset. There were a lot of good suggestions put forward that could have helped a lot more than these irrelevant changes.
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16 Jun 2007, 14:59
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 255
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Etd are still way overpowered.
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How so?
their anti fi has been weakened, their now roidable by other etd's in the form of co, with weakened stockpiles and an alternative roiding fleet their still roidable by de, their anti cr has been cnuted, as such etd's are now a much easier target.
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16 Jun 2007, 15:17
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#11
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Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
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Re: R22 stats
Their anti Fi was ridiculously overpowered last round, it's now been brought into line a little but it is still quite good. Almost every Etd will focus on Bs since it is the far superior fleet overall and in a value round fleet value can't really be wasted on 2 viable attacking fleets. De is pretty much the same as last round although there may be more Terrans in the universe this time out. If so then this is all the more reason to be Broker heavy (ie no Co fleet).
It's all a question of relative strength. I admit that Etd may not be as broken as last round, but they are still very unbalanced and will dominate once again.
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16 Jun 2007, 15:36
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 255
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Re: R22 stats
i agree with a lot of what your saying, but i think your understating the usefulness of their co fleets. As a value split on fleets goes their always going to have a fair amount of anti fi, doubling a roiding fleet as a def ship will make sure of this. And the fact that etd's can roid fellow etd's will almost certainly mean that domination won't occur like it did last round when it was pretty much impossible.
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16 Jun 2007, 15:40
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#13
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: R22 stats
The three non loss ships against etd bs have been considerably upgraded. The Syren is very powerful, the Investor too and the scorpion is still quite good.
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16 Jun 2007, 19:24
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 846
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Re: R22 stats
i see the harpy -thives issue insnt addressed either hehe
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16 Jun 2007, 19:41
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#15
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Up The Hatters!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kenilworth Road
Posts: 3,012
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
i see the harpy -thives issue insnt addressed either hehe
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It is supposed to be like that, the harpy primary def is against xan fr, and the bomber is against zik fr.
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16 Jun 2007, 19:56
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#16
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The PropaGhandi
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 796
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Re: R22 stats
Etd are still to overpowered like they were this round.
And why they weakened zik who already are close to total fubar is beond me
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16 Jun 2007, 23:34
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#17
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Crazy fin
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 20
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
i see the harpy -thives issue insnt addressed either hehe
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but now zik fr dont steal harpies so its not so bad what it was. but i dont get why zik what thing is to steal they have att fleet whit 0 steal ships and that fleet sucks big time cos there is 2 co-fr killer who shoot before zik fr and etd is still only race what can win round.
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R14-17 - HR
R17-20 - Omen
R21 - Angels
R22 - Jenova
R23 - Exilition
R24 - Excessum
R25 - TGV
R26 - Denial
R27 - Vision
R28 - Carebears / Asc
R29 - Asc
R30 - Omen
R31 - Asc
R32 - Apprime
R33 - Apprime
R36 - Excessum
R38 - [NFI]
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17 Jun 2007, 05:09
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#18
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Commodore
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 3,176
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
Almost every Etd will focus on Bs since it is the far superior fleet overall and in a value round fleet value can't really be wasted on 2 viable attacking fleets.
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Whilst this is true, the difference between last round and this round is that now that etd can hit themselves (even if it is with CO), once the etd planets start pulling ahead, there is a kind of first mover advantage with etd planets swapping to CO early in order to take on these (relatively) fat etds for (relatively) greater benefits.
People who have done any game theory know what happens in a situation with limited iterations and first mover advantage .
I need to look at the stats more - critical stats changes co-inciding exactly with my final uni exams was far from helpful - before i'll comment more on race dynamics. That, and if i get the time to redo/update the race guides for this coming round.
With my moderator hat on, i'll just say here and now to make it absolutely clear; people who post on this forum without either contributing to the discussion at hand and/or being on topic will have their posts deleted. This thread is about the stats for R22 - discussion on whether etd should exist at all is for another thread, your confidence in the statbuilders is for another thread, your opinions on the fundamental philosophies that stats should take (eg, being able to attack your own race, or not etc) is for another thread. Comments regarding race dynamics and how effective certain ships/combos etc will play out are relevent to this thread. Posts which i deem to be along the aformentioned lines will be deleted - though i strongly encourage posters who have strong convictions in these areas start up alternative discussion.
If you find that your earlier post in this thread has been deleted, then this is probably why.
<3
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17 Jun 2007, 12:26
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#19
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Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
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Re: R22 stats
You are failing to take into account that an Etd who focused primarily on Co at any point would leave himself wide open to attack from De, especially later in the round. Given the slight weakening on the Broker I expect most Etds to be even more focused on them as they are still the key component to best roiding fleet and a very important def ship.
The reality is that when all things are considered 90% of Etds will still go heavy BS to the point of not having a Co fleet thus rendering this supposed weakness invalid.
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17 Jun 2007, 13:13
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 255
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
You are failing to take into account that an Etd who focused primarily on Co at any point would leave himself wide open to attack from De, especially later in the round. Given the slight weakening on the Broker I expect most Etds to be even more focused on them as they are still the key component to best roiding fleet and a very important def ship.
The reality is that when all things are considered 90% of Etds will still go heavy BS to the point of not having a Co fleet thus rendering this supposed weakness invalid.
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And you are failing to take into account that an Etd that doesn't build any co will leave himself wide open to attack from fi. The fact of the matter is that etd's just can't cover themselves from both fi and de to the extent they could before, but it's incredibly likely that an etd after building a bunch of anti fi to selfcover will go looking for etd targets to hit.
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17 Jun 2007, 13:43
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#21
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Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
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Re: R22 stats
With the current high numbers of zik/ter compared to xan I think there will be ample def vs Fi ingalaxy and as a result I don't think we will see the same value % dedicated to this new Co as was spent on the merchant last round. And small Co fleets just aren't that scary.
Also, given that only the most suicidical Etd would send all his anti DE and anti Fi out on attack at the same time. This would be noticed by most alliances and he would be constantly retalled, which would make his planet uncompetitive in the long term anyway.
However, since all we can do is theorise as to what people will actually build when ticks start I don't suppose there is not much either of us can do to convince the other but the noises I'm hearing from the people I know playing Etd suggest they will be BS heavy again.
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17 Jun 2007, 23:11
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#22
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
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Re: R22 stats
Might see a few more cathaargh about this round as etd anti cruiser is pretty useless again and should be some easy roids against the bigger planets, just hanging on to them during your 8 million waves of incs as the usual problem
Xan, omg what a surprise they cant defend against bs, pretty much renders them useless again in an etd strong round,
etd co is alright, nightmare is lacking firepower, phoenix is pretty useless in general, and every other anti co gets fired at first by the etd co except the bw which pretty much owns the etd co. I suppose if you have a fair chunk of voyagers lieing about you might be tempted to build a few vendor and rambler, but its not really worth it when someone half your size can cover your attack if you focus on the co....bs again it seems,
Terran, good bs, defence ships seem to be as good as a chocolate fireguard, the def against de has alot of 0 loss against it so prolly not gonna work too well. will piss etd off though as they wont be able to attack if you target them.
zik, dunno if the round is etd heavy again they are gonna have alot of fun counter attacking etd but otherwise they will struggle again to choose big targets.
as you may have worked out all my assumption are based on etd being a majority of the big planets like r21, which if true makes cathaar not too bad to be if you can hope to hang on to a few roids, if the xp was any good this round i think cath would be pretty decent.
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18 Jun 2007, 01:41
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#23
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;D!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,810
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Re: R22 stats
I'd like to complain about not having an etd ship called 'magnate'. Having almost every etd ship end in 'er' or 'or' is irritating.
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18 Jun 2007, 07:36
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: R22 stats
I agree that Xan is open to BS, but i don't see it as a problem. Usually you always leave a gap or 2 in your def to concentrate on other ships... with Xans the choice is made for you, it's up to your BP/Gal/Ally to cover you.
A Etd BP friend will cover both your Etd BS and Xan FR incs with Investors and Tycs, as well as your ter BS with his rangers. In exchange you'll help the Etd with anti DE, anti CO and anti Fi.
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18 Jun 2007, 08:34
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#25
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
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Re: R22 stats
agreed makhil that you leave gaps however in what is bound to be an etd strong round, there are gonna be a lack of terran bs anyway and alot of etd bs so xans are gonna get swamped by bs like they did last round
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R4 - [The Collective/Newdawn]
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18 Jun 2007, 10:53
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#26
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Poblacht na hÉireann
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,167
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Re: R22 stats
Gonna be a lot of Terrans this round aswell. Bs will be strong because there will be so much of it around and it will be perfectly De fakable as always. Also, since only scanners can really build amps now FA should be pretty much a non issue this round.
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18 Jun 2007, 10:56
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#27
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juffled
agreed makhil that you leave gaps however in what is bound to be an etd strong round, there are gonna be a lack of terran bs anyway and alot of etd bs so xans are gonna get swamped by bs like they did last round
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if there is a lot of ETD, there will be potentially a lot of anti Etd BS (investors) and a lot of targets for Xan FIs
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19 Jun 2007, 03:55
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#28
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;D!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,810
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Re: R22 stats
Seriously, these stats would be at least 23% better if one of the Etd ships was renamed 'magnate'.
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19 Jun 2007, 09:54
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
if there is a lot of ETD, there will be potentially a lot of anti Etd BS (investors) and a lot of targets for Xan FIs
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And as we saw last round investors out of galaxy although not exactly rare are not at the same time common
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19 Jun 2007, 20:46
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#30
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Ultimate Thief
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5
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Re: R22 stats
Actually...the new ship stats make the stealing ability of the Etd just as good as the Zik...only because all the Etd has to do now is steal a Rouge, and then proceed to stealing the rest of the Zik ships, it might take longer, but potentially, a Etd with a Zik farm for ships would be a hair overpowered potentially...I think they should find a way to limit the potential overkill of 2 stealing races out and about
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Round XXII Race: Cath
Alliance: Icon of Sin - Battle Commander
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19 Jun 2007, 21:49
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 46
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Re: R22 stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celis
Actually...the new ship stats make the stealing ability of the Etd just as good as the Zik...only because all the Etd has to do now is steal a Rouge, and then proceed to stealing the rest of the Zik ships, it might take longer, but potentially, a Etd with a Zik farm for ships would be a hair overpowered potentially...I think they should find a way to limit the potential overkill of 2 stealing races out and about
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errrrr..........no i take it you either didnt play last round or didnt play etd, if you managed to steal a rogue you were one of about 3 ppl i imagine
edit - and if you do get any once you steal some cruiser with those rogues suddenly you havent got any of them left either
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R4 - [The Collective/Newdawn]
R5 - [Wrath]
R6 - [Fury]
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19 Jun 2007, 21:55
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Austria
Posts: 130
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Re: R22 stats
Could it be they overall strenghtened freeze-ships?
funny as they were all "downgrade them" last round
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20 Jun 2007, 05:14
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#33
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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Re: R22 stats
GrandAdm, are you trying to say cathaar efficiences were tweaked down *for last round?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celis
Actually...the new ship stats make the stealing ability of the Etd just as good as the Zik...
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In fact, it is even better. Zikonians have no ships that are faster than their targets, with the targets being of a pod class owned by zikonians, hence that would allow zikonians to directly steal ships to add to their own podfleets. The eitrades steal ship is very specifically designed to do all this - why it is safe to argue it's probably better than any other stealer in the game, at least on paper. A lot will depend on how terran fares.
Last edited by Tietäjä; 20 Jun 2007 at 08:12.
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