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Unread 24 May 2014, 17:33   #1
Paisley
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Refineries V Finance Centres

Just thought it would be a worthwhile discussion...

I know some Folk on IRC have said the magic number of roids to have is 800-1300 before Finance Centres are more effective than refineries.

I know of light's spreadsheet is getting a Bit dated by the changes in governments ( in the last 20-25 rounds) , 10% Increase in refineries Output (last round) and consecutive contruction costs (this round)

Might be an Idea for the PA team to code a tick Simulator (using game code mechanics to be accurate) or run an experiment on the beta server with every different person going different govs, roid counts and refinery and Finance centre counts to work out the optimum resource Output.
(This something a PA research and development team could do as an example)

Ok factors that can affect Refs v Fi centres

1. Roid count.
2. Government type
3. Core mining research.
4. Refinery Count.
5. Finance Centre Count.
6. Time / What tick was the Refinery or Finance centre was built.
7. Cost of the construction and "return" it generates by having it.
8. Cost / loss in conversion in other resources in ship purchasing (like transfering excess C and E for M v Having a metal refinery Excess to generate a metal stagger if you are playing terran)

As a rough Guide I tend to have say 25 metal Refs and 10 to 15 crystal and Eonium refineries going terran on either a total or corp government before switching to Finance centres.

What is your thoughts and Comments on this? If you care to talk strategy please respond.
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Unread 24 May 2014, 18:52   #2
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Let me start by saying the idea of a single "magic number" of roids is nonsense, neither the same for everyone nor the same for one planet at every tick.

Government, population mining (you forgot to list this) and number of finance centres all affect the same element of the income formula, percentage bonus. Similarly roid count, core mining research and number of refineries can be merged into a value I call extraction.

To make things easier, assume that government, core mining research, population mining and heavy cargo transfers research (I guess this last one is implied) can be ignored because you maximise all of them ASAP. Also, assume we can't predict the future - if you lose or gain roids, obviously that has a knock on effect to which structure is better to build next but you can't change what you've already built and it's wasteful to change what you're currently building.

Then the question to be asked is "Given my roid count this tick, which becomes profitable first: a refinery or a finance centre?".

Since r56, a new refinery will generate
Code:
1100               *  (100 + current_bonus)%      * (100 - tax)%
of 1 resource per tick. A new finance centre will generate
Code:
current_extraction * (100 + current_bonus + 0.5)% * (100 - tax)%
of every resource per tick.

Both structures become profitable after having existed for longer than cost/income ticks. Obviously you need to add the number of ticks before the building you want can exist (build time). Cost goes up every time, a different amount starting in r57 than before. For finance centres, I use the resource type with the largest cost/income to be certain of profit - others might prefer to take an average, that's probably something worth testing.

Now it's simply a case of plugging a few numbers in to
Code:
cost / income + build_time
for each structure. The smaller answer is the one that becomes profitable first. The more roids you have, the more likely that answer will indicate finance centre as the best thing to build, but I hope it's clearer how there is no single line to cross where before you build only refineries and after you build only finance centres.
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Unread 24 May 2014, 19:12   #3
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

nice topic, on a sidenote im upset with last rounds 10% refinery boost, and this rounds change to lower building cost based on x ammount of buildings.

Both changes favores resource whoring for value, and indirectly makes other buildings less viable. I think the pa crew should rather think of ways to make disting, amping, military centres and security centres better.
As it is a well known fact that neither of those options pays off in the short or long run. Spamming refineries and finance centres and going corp is so much better than any other option, if you have any remote goal of doing well at the rankings.

So why make consecutive changes to further force people going refs/fc's + corp?
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Unread 24 May 2014, 19:55   #4
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

A cost reduction in massing one constructions favours amps/dists/mil centres much more than refineries/FCs, since the latter two actually help pay for themselves, whereas scanners/distwhores/xpwhores will not have as many resources to afford the massively increased cost.

I don't understand your point of how reducing contruction costs would push more people towards the 'standard' of Refineries/FCs - if anything, this standard spreads out more than any other between the 4 Constructions, rather than focusing on one.
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Unread 24 May 2014, 20:30   #5
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will View Post
Government, population mining (you forgot to list this)
Soz forgot to mention that, Its a given mainly because

Most cases 25% mining on Pop is never "off" only in cases of extreme shipwrighting (60% pop) whilst having Pop on security (to be immune to anarchy gov cov op) is the only real senario of 25% mining being turned "off"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will View Post
but I hope it's clearer how there is no single line to cross where before you build only refineries and after you build only finance centres.
I agree there isn't 1 single magic number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
nice topic, on a sidenote im upset with last rounds 10% refinery boost, and this rounds change to lower building cost based on x ammount of buildings.

Both changes favores resource whoring for value, and indirectly makes other buildings less viable. I think the pa crew should rather think of ways to make disting, amping, military centres and security centres better.
As it is a well known fact that neither of those options pays off in the short or long run. Spamming refineries and finance centres and going corp is so much better than any other option, if you have any remote goal of doing well at the rankings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
A cost reduction in massing one constructions favours amps/dists/mil centres much more than refineries/FCs, since the latter two actually help pay for themselves, whereas scanners/distwhores/xpwhores will not have as many resources to afford the massively increased cost.

I don't understand your point of how reducing contruction costs would push more people towards the 'standard' of Refineries/FCs - if anything, this standard spreads out more than any other between the 4 Constructions, rather than focusing on one.
Think I'm Going to start a Planetarion discussion thread on Value whoring V Dist whoring V Mil Centre (XP) whoring as there is an Imbalance imo favouring Value whoring (hence no fair strategy to discuss)

See below and compare last t100 stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
make consecutive changes to further force people going refs/fc's + corp?
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Unread 25 May 2014, 00:45   #6
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

1100 is the number willynilly and I came up with last round.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 02:23   #7
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

I could have sworn I'd seen that number before last round...

Either way, there are more variables than just roids - but to do well you need Finance Centres. Personally I'd rather plan to do well and possibly end up with inefficient Finance Centres, than to plan for possible failure!
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Unread 25 May 2014, 09:06   #8
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

I was always told that over 75-80k a tick income a FC would make more than 1k and become better than a ref.

Wether this is true I dunno.

I used to follow it but I have found personally that apart from distorting whichever resource your race needs ie. Pumping 10 crystal refs as a cat that building refineries is overly pointless.

If you follow the game path of Corp+fc+pre tick 300 magma then fcs will have paid for themselves and be generating a much higher income early on compared to people that dither with refs first.

But obviously it comes down to the player, as fcs are based as a % bonus of total income then if you can keep your roids then you wouldn't even consider refs as an option.
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Unread 25 May 2014, 12:33   #9
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Depends on ally ship strat, ETA/hulls and inc scans are always put ahead of planet ranks in most allies. Then ofc you see people like Delgado and Shaz last round being #1 with no amps and a lot of FCs.
Most people will escort or ground and research core before HCT
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Unread 25 May 2014, 14:34   #10
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Depends on ally ship strat, ETA/hulls and inc scans are always put ahead of planet ranks in most allies. Then ofc you see people like Delgado and Shaz last round being #1 with no amps and a lot of FCs.
Most people will escort or ground and research core before HCT
lmao
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Unread 25 May 2014, 19:19   #11
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Depends on ally ship strat, ETA/hulls and inc scans are always put ahead of planet ranks in most allies. Then ofc you see people like Delgado and Shaz last round being #1 with no amps and a lot of FCs.
Most people will escort or ground and research core before HCT
Tbh saying most alliances is wrong. In most alliances you have played in is more accurate.

In the alliances i have played in there has either been freedom of gates>core or atleast a compromise of gate>core>gate>core.

I think a lot depends on hellbent the alliance is on performing well in the first 400 ticks of a round. Vikings seemed that way to me, Ultores less so. I feel that Ultores got the whole idea of the last 500 ticks is what matters whereas Vikings were too full of rules and regs to bend a little and concentrated on the starting 400 ticks of a round above all else.

Two different styles, one won a lot and one didnt. Personal opinion and what a lot of my arguements with Influence were about tbh.

Back on topic of Butchers reply saying that MOST PEOPLE will ground and escort or research cores before HCT is complete BULLSHIT. Seriously the crack you smoke must be strong.

People will just get the hulls they need to roid and then push cores and do HCTs as needed. Everyone expect defwhores and even some of those will attack a lot in the first week tho and sometimes all through the 2nd week. Then people settle down a little as politics start. Actually sometimes if you are above the avg round count not doing the HCT and getting the cores done can be more benefical as there is a high chance of incs
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Unread 25 May 2014, 21:12   #12
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Tbh saying most alliances is wrong. In most alliances you have played in is more accurate.

In the alliances i have played in there has either been freedom of gates>core or atleast a compromise of gate>core>gate>core.

I think a lot depends on hellbent the alliance is on performing well in the first 400 ticks of a round. Vikings seemed that way to me, Ultores less so. I feel that Ultores got the whole idea of the last 500 ticks is what matters whereas Vikings were too full of rules and regs to bend a little and concentrated on the starting 400 ticks of a round above all else.

Two different styles, one won a lot and one didnt. Personal opinion and what a lot of my arguements with Influence were about tbh.

Back on topic of Butchers reply saying that MOST PEOPLE will ground and escort or research cores before HCT is complete BULLSHIT. Seriously the crack you smoke must be strong.

People will just get the hulls they need to roid and then push cores and do HCTs as needed. Everyone expect defwhores and even some of those will attack a lot in the first week tho and sometimes all through the 2nd week. Then people settle down a little as politics start. Actually sometimes if you are above the avg round count not doing the HCT and getting the cores done can be more benefical as there is a high chance of incs
You are mistunderstanding what im saying.
Most team players will do their cores/TT/hulls when they come to like 750 roids(or what ever that cost a lot of RP), continue roiding and researching for more HCT when your allie mates are behind in roids is not something most people would do.
Researching core towards getting more HCT is just a question on what can earn you the most res for the NeXT 100 ticks, nobody wants to be a fat target and get a lot incommings, therefor prolly will go for the more secure core mineing wich will guarantee you the Resources.
If your allie strat requires TT4 by PTxxx and hull 3 by PTxxx, you cannot continue researching your HCT just because you want to get a lot of score/value/whatevah
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Unread 25 May 2014, 23:15   #13
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
You are mistunderstanding what im saying.
Most team players will do their cores/TT/hulls when they come to like 750 roids(or what ever that cost a lot of RP), continue roiding and researching for more HCT when your allie mates are behind in roids is not something most people would do.
Researching core towards getting more HCT is just a question on what can earn you the most res for the NeXT 100 ticks, nobody wants to be a fat target and get a lot incommings, therefor prolly will go for the more secure core mineing wich will guarantee you the Resources.
If your allie strat requires TT4 by PTxxx and hull 3 by PTxxx, you cannot continue researching your HCT just because you want to get a lot of score/value/whatevah
If your alliance is so regulated on TT and hulls 3 then your alliance most likely will have crap sheep players who do poorly all round.

Just chuck rankwhores on no def until they have TT4. Simples. These people come good over 1200 ticks, invariably end up biggest deffers and they have whacking huge value to boot.

Take mikee for example last round, did **** all defensively for 700 ticks still ended up with around 60-70 def fleets sent by round end. Would have been more in an active alliance. And he provided his alliance with huge score and had a fleet that could 1 shot cover incs. TT4 by PTXXX is amateur strat play by amateur alliances.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 00:31   #14
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Lets take your Hero Valle ... Goes From Top defender in ND and then goes to less than 10 defence fleets in Omega.
Omega was an amateur alliance run by selfish people with egos. It lasted 300 ticks then fell apart. I am not saying everyone should do there own thing but stiflingg your best players to conform will make them disinterested.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 01:46   #15
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

I'm not even sure why you guys are bothering to reply to bitchers comments, they are totally irrelevant and unlogical.
And furthermore, if your alliance forces players to go a route that is crap to begin with... then there is something really wrong with the leaders.
Playing to do well in the short run, is just utterly pointless when the round is 1177 ticks. (And it's not even a valid strategy for a short run set up)

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Unread 26 May 2014, 12:14   #16
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Will is correct. There is no single fixed roid count number at which the statement "FCs are better than refs" suddenly becomes a universal truth.

The reason is that FCs increase the income you get from refs. Put simply: the more FCs you have, the better refs become. And because they influence each other in this way, there's a grey area.

At very low roid counts, starting with refs is always better. The more roids you have, the better FCs are. But because FCs improve refs, there's a large grey area in which you should build both FCs and refs. And finally, at some inordinately high number of roids, FCs are just plain better, at which point you start with 60 FCs before you build any refs at all.

Choice of government affects this as well: mining bonus works additively with FCs but multiplicatively with refs, while ship cost reduction works multiplicatively with both FCs and refs.

And finally, it is worth keeping in mind that the value gained at tick 0 is used to gain more roids ( = higher income = more value), while value gained at tick 1177 is just value. This works against FCs, because they do best when you have lots of roids, which is late in the round. This factor is by far the hardest to quantify.

So it is not at all a simple question to answer. However, you don't need a tick simulator to work out the best way to set up your structures. You just need a bunch of math.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 13:59   #17
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Well there is always a magic number, but yeah this number varies with ur gov, core level, roids, refs and fcs. But really the only number you need is when ur first fc pays off with ur current gov and core level as you should be gaining roids fast enough to make fcs more profitable while building them rather then less.

Since the real problem isnt finding the number(tho it seems its hard for alot of people in here) its how soon BEFORE you hit that number as you wanna start fc's when it doesnt pay off in anticipation of you getting more roids(and keeping the ones you have) cause if you could insta build fcs it would be a easy task to start it at the excact time. What I can say is that most pa players 95%+ start building fcs way too soon.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 14:58   #18
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

On the flipside tho from my viewpoint of constructions unless I am needing 10 refs to distort income I wouldn't bother with them. I look at as I'm aiming to complete 60 fcs by tick 500. I would like to think I'll have atleast 1k roids by then. I don't want to fanny on with refs and still be doing fcs at tick 700-800. I would rather have the 30% boost earlier and then build on it. Plus each FC adds .5% to every income type every 9 ticks (at worst) a ref adds 1k to 1 type every 6-7 ticks. In the time I can add 1k to each resource I can add 1% to everything so I guess once you make more than 100k a tick its FCs all the way and a negliable difference down to about 75k so I can now see why someone said 75k a tick to me
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Unread 26 May 2014, 15:03   #19
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

Thats the thing with finishing FCs early the only thing to focus on after that is Amps for inc scanning

edit- Distorters also if you are non cath
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Unread 26 May 2014, 16:04   #20
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Thats the thing with finishing FCs early the only thing to focus on after that is Amps for inc scanning

edit- Distorters also if you are non cath
As Mz says Dists are just a waste of time in current PA.

a) They leave you miles behind the people building FC's

b) There is always a scanner than can scan you

c) Unless you are cloaked then U scan can bypass your dists and see a good guess at your fleet.


When i play Xan i dont even bother with dists. I just 50/50 my pods and match my fi fleet to the size of my FR fleet. That way I scans are irrelevant as they dont prove anything and its a construction i dont have to bother with.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 17:10   #21
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

dists are very much worth building, just dont try and block everyone. just block inc scans and they will be massively beneficial.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 17:53   #22
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

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Originally Posted by Reincarnate View Post
dists are very much worth building, just dont try and block everyone. just block inc scans and they will be massively beneficial.
tits and tats... i've seen inc scans with only fr pods, matching planets entire fr fleet, so ofcourse planet got covered against fr.. Issue on the battle report was that it wasn't fr flying with the pods. It was fi hitting the anti fr.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 18:24   #23
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

I'm quite familar with faking meta classes from previous rounds and how this is dependent on your target not being able to inc scan you etc.

personally Im sticking with having 30-50 refs (depending on race) before switching to Finance centres.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 22:38   #24
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

It isn't dependant if you are xan
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Unread 28 May 2014, 19:01   #25
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Re: Refineries V Finance Centres

I started last round building refineries to maximize my resource output depending on how many of each roid type I capped every night, purely so I wouldn't be wasting resources on the exchange or ally/gal funds.

I switched to FC's after about 500 roids and alternated between stuff until I hit the FC cap, then back to refineries mainly, and distorters.

Didn't bother with Military Centres as that was new to me. Might have been a better way to get xp, but I ran a pretty decent planet (for me!) and had good lands.

Is there a "magic number"? I doubt it. Will and mz already pretty much summed it up. I think it comes down to personal play style and what you're trying to achieve.

In all honesty, getting this deep into PA is pretty silly A good discussion nonetheless, which these forums could certainly use more of.
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