Racism

[HRH_H_Crab]

Mzyxptlk: yup. I do actually think PA prob. would be a lot better if it was G rated, certainly in terms of what a large number of the users contribute.

******master *sigh*: "The great thing about racism is that if you don't talk about it, it goes away."

I dunno that I agree with this 100%. There is an implication in that, that I should just sit back when I witness it and do nothing which I find extremely distasteful for a number of reasons which should be too obvious to need any more discussion.

But if you are saying that my posting "inflames" the matter, yup.
You probably have an excellent point there, but hey, big up Firey and co., because they will soon be banning the people that make me want to post. And thats much much better than me suffering their drivel or getting banned myself! *smug*.

Regarding IRC... hmmm.

I was very misguided in what I wrote about IRC.
It is a very different thing from a space based web game, and the forums that surround it.

I should sadly expect to see racisim and homophobia when I connect to a relatively open IRC server, but I don't feel I should expect that when I log in to PA (particularly as I may very well have paid for it).

As for the "problem" well, I'm backpeddling here and making one up after the fact as my original discourse on the subject was really rubbish, but:

I do get so tired of all the /ignore-ing /kickban-ing etc. that is required to make ones stay as nice as possible, and I dunno, I just feel that its sad that Im probably missing out on a few really cool channels where the s/n is just a little bit worse than what I can just about tolerate!

There. Thats a nice selfish response for Wishmaster as I know he is very concerned about reading stuff that he doesn't care about!

Yay I can be edgy and push buttons on the internet too! \o/

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by ******master

The great thing about racism is that if you don't talk about it, it goes away.

And if you don't see it, it's not there.

HRH, contribute to making PA G-rated and consider yourself banned. You used "hell", which is PG-rated, as per the MPAA rating system. I also think that by "big up", you're referring to a penis. That's PG-13 at the very least.

Lets make PA safe for all the 8 year olds that play it!

[horn]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

My view on that is that this is a space based webgame, played by an extremely wide range of people, and probably a fair few young children.

It is not an edgy news journal with a pressing need to protect its journalistic integrity.

you're right it isn't an edgy news journal. but then no one's suggesting that overly sensitive moderating of the game or forums is about to result in an orwellian state. it's just ****ing annoying and completely pointless. hiding any and all pictures of organisations like the KKK from a child only serves to create yet another cretin who treats the concept of racism with a mix of confused reverence and repression.
it's no coincidence that the people causing you problems with this issue are statistically speaking, the least likely to have chosen fascism as their planets government.*

Originally Posted by crab

I mean look at this very thread, its a simple message from Firey stating that the appallingly lax status quo is finally being addressed and what do you get?

Lame attempts at humour, based on the subject of racism.

well if lame jokes are the result of allowing something then i think we should seriously reconsider the lax censorship of said issue and really ratchet up the punishment a notch. maybe we should report everyone to their isps or something.


* http://pa.wiki.clawofdarkness/racismsurvey420.htm

[HRH_H_Crab]

Im really not sure what to make of this quote horn:

"hiding any and all pictures of organisations like the KKK from a child only serves to create yet another cretin who treats the concept of racism with a mix of confused reverence and repression."

I think not hiding them in inappropriate contexts (such as online game communities) where they are frequently used for the purposes of "humour" rather than education, is far more likely to induce the characteristics which you have so sensitively described as "cretinism" than not hiding them.

Having said that, pa crews intention to clean this up does seem to have generated a lot of "cretinism" in this thread hasn't it?

You will no doubt attribute that to me.
I have a different opinion.

I guess we will just have to disagree.
Fortunately it seems I side with the people who will be doing the vile evil censorship, and removing your (lol) free speech and impeding your ability to use your galpic to (roflmao) educate impressionable youngsters about the cruelty of mankind.

[Game^]

Literally can't believe the direction this game and now the forums are going as regards this. VenoX's ban for being 'racist' (are you taking the piss with that?) was absolutely laughable. I'd love to hear how that can be considered to be racist...

Is a comment like "most black people have an attitude problem" also now racist? Bare in mind that within the comment I am not labelling ALL blacks, just an opinion based upon the people I have met in my life...

[HRH_H_Crab]

Originally Posted by Game^

Is a comment like "most black people have an attitude problem" also now racist? Bare in mind that within the comment I am not labelling ALL blacks, just an opinion based upon the people I have met in my life...

Yes. That is a racist comment.

"The people in this thread that cannot understand that are idiots."

Is not a racist comment.

Who we have or have not met has no bearing on whether either statement is racist.

Disclaimer: this is of course just my opinion. I don't pretend to be the worlds authority on this stuff, and unfortunately when you are working in a climate where people are pushing stuff for "lulz" then you obviously have to use the authoritarian approach to a degree.

horn: "it's just ****ing annoying and completely pointless." The thing which will be annoying and pointless will be the work that PA crew will have to put in to evalute each offense as people use increasingly bizarre justifications to wriggle out of taking responsibilty for using lulz-worthy ruler / planet / galnames / pics and ensure that people are treated fairly. By God that will be a horrible task knowing you lot, and I am so so happy that I don't have to do it. BUT, whether its been born of genuine altruism, fear of litigation, concern about financial implications of unsavory content or whatever, I think its bloody ace, and thats why I heartily support it.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Who we have or have not met has no bearing on whether either statement is racist.

So people are no longer able to post about their own experiences and derived opinions from these experiences. Remember Crab, this isn't a statement where I am prejudging EVERY person based on the few I have met, I am however giving a statement based upon the people I have.

[HRH_H_Crab]

Originally Posted by Game^

So people are no longer able to post about their own experiences and derived opinions from these experiences.

sure you can.

you can say what you want in /b/ (with pretty pictures too).
you can say what you want in the Asc channels or anywhere else on netgamers (you might get banned or ignored though).

you can sign up to some lovely National Front website or the BNP if that floats your boat.

But you will have certain restrictions about what you can use as a ruler / planet / galname / fleetnames / galpic or write in tedious tedious threads to justify why you should be able to do what you want everywhere.

Capice?

[HRH_H_Crab]

Something occured to me which I really found hilarious.
I know most members of the pa forums won't understand this at all, but for those who might here goes:

I never understood what was funny about winding up people with "Demotivator" type images featuring starving Ethiopian children (come on, don't be coy, you've all been playing pa for a while, or been on IRC, so you DO know the kind of stuff I'm talking about), but through the insane euphoric joy that comes from witnessing you lamers getting so wound up at the prospect that that source of pleasure might be at risk, I think that the opposing sides are actually finding some common ground!

The internet! Isn't it absolutey fantastic?!

[Game^]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

sure you can.

you can say what you want in /b/ (with pretty pictures too).
you can say what you want in the Asc channels or anywhere else on netgamers (you might get banned or ignored though).

you can sign up to some lovely National Front website or the BNP if that floats your boat.

I fail to see what any of this has to do with what I have posted. Or am I also now a racist, a member of the BNP and hate all people not of my own skin colour?

But you will have certain restrictions about what you can use as a ruler / planet / galname / fleetnames / galpic or write in tedious tedious threads to justify why you should be able to do what you want everywhere.

Capice?

Not really, as one would think the point of a thread instead of a locked announcement would be to promote discussion!

Capice?

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

I never understood what was funny about winding up people with "Demotivator" type images featuring starving Ethiopian children (come on, don't be coy, you've all been playing pa for a while, or been on IRC, so you DO know the kind of stuff I'm talking about), but through the insane euphoric joy that comes from witnessing you lamers getting so wound up at the prospect that that source of pleasure might be at risk, I think that the opposing sides are actually finding some common ground!

At risk? I disagree.

[HRH_H_Crab]

Game^: the point is you can say what you want, just not everywhere.
If you naively expect that you can go around saying "all black people have an attitude problem" on the basis of your personal experience (which I'm sorry to say is absolutely meaningless to most people) and not expect a reaction then you are very foolish. But you DO expect a reaction don't you? Thats why you and Mz keep posting isn't it?

Indeed Mz pretty much confirms that with his response to my other post.

Well, enjoy boys, I hope you are having as much fun baiting the white liberal middleclass bleeding heart politically correct do-gooder, as I am feeding the trolls.

Mz: we will see. As I have said I actually think that this initiative is one of the most positive things I've seen in PA for ages. It will remain to be seen how its handled.

[HRH_H_Crab]

Not really, as one would think the point of a thread instead of a locked announcement would be to promote discussion!

You are right Game now: which of these two topics do you think it was for discussion of:

1./ The zero tolerance anti racism policy.
2./ Games life experiences with people of varying ethnic backgrounds, and how these experiences have moulded his opinions, beliefs, and attitudes toward them.

My guess Game, is that the answer is no.1
I am more than happy to be corrected (harshly if necessary - and that is not a bdsm reference if anyone is interested), if I am not right.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

]"all black people have an attitude problem"

I didn't say that!

[Game^]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

You are right Game now: which of these two topics do you think it was for discussion of:

1./ The zero tolerance anti racism policy.
2./ Games life experiences with people of varying ethnic backgrounds, and how these experiences have moulded his opinions, beliefs, and attitudes toward them.

My guess Game, is that the answer is no.1
I am more than happy to be corrected (harshly if necessary - and that is not a bdsm reference if anyone is interested), if I am not right.

Are you really this stupid?

I asked if an example comment would be seen as being racist, I didn't rant on about personnal experiences or beliefs. Do you just skim read posts, could you read them properly before replying? (you've already proven you don't read posts by misquoting me).

The point is though Crab, it's people like you that really annoy me in terms of this topic, jumping on a comment, misquoting it and then applying logic to it derived from your misunderstanding.

Can I take a stab in the dark, and guess that you are a white person?

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

But you DO expect a reaction don't you? Thats why you and Mz keep posting isn't it?

Obviously. I thought that was the whole idea of the forums. I post and you read, then you post and I read. Ad nauseum. (And then Game comes in and acts like a moron. We can't all be winners!)

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Indeed Mz pretty much confirms that with his response to my other post.

You're making it seem like I'm doing something horribly horribly wrong. Please point out what it is.

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Mz: we will see. As I have said I actually think that this initiative is one of the most positive things I've seen in PA for ages. It will remain to be seen how its handled.

"This initiative". Are you even listening to yourself? What exactly do you hope this will achieve? A huge influx of minors, blacks and homosexuals, who so far have been kept away from PA by our hilarious wit?

[HRH_H_Crab]

Originally Posted by Game^

Are you really this stupid?

I asked if an example comment would be seen as being racist, I didn't rant on about personnal experiences or beliefs. Do you just skim read posts, could you read them properly before replying? (you've already proven you don't read posts by misquoting me).

The point is though Crab, it's people like you that really annoy me in terms of this topic, jumping on a comment, misquoting it and then applying logic to it derived from your misunderstanding.

Can I take a stab in the dark, and guess that you are a white person?

Yes you have correctly spotted a misquote.
I hold my hand up to that.

Are you really so stupid though that you think use of "most/all" in that comment has any bearing about whether the comment is racist or not? It doesn't its your use of a colour that makes it racist.

People like you really annoy me up because you just prove you don't read posts by ignoring the fact that I pretty much stated that I was white previously (not that that matters at all) and asking the question.

[HRH_H_Crab]

"This initiative". Are you even listening to yourself? What exactly do you hope this will achieve? A huge influx of minors, blacks and homosexuals, who so far have been kept away from PA by our hilarious wit?

What I hope it will achieve is suppression of the ability of people to make unfunny and offensive planet / rulername etc. , forum posts, galpics, etc. etc.

What I want is for the community to be moderated really heavily, just like (for example) the BBCs internet forums are moderated, and not like /b/ is moderated.

And if that winds you and Game up, thats just icing on the cake.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Are you really so stupid though that you think use of "most/all" in that comment has any bearing about whether the comment is racist or not? It doesn't its your use of a colour that makes it racist.

Crab's entire argument falls apart in one post, thanks

[HRH_H_Crab]

Can I take a stab in the dark, and guess that you are a white person?

Honest question Game, as I am interested:

Why do you ask this question?

For the record when I stated I was a white liberal politically correct etc. etc. the reason I mentioned it was because I had a funny feeling that you might have a particular dislike about people who conform to that stereotype.

I don't actually feel I do conform to that stereotype as strongly as you may assume, but for you to then ask the question suddenly makes me really interested in why you might have asked it...

[HRH_H_Crab]

Crab's entire argument falls apart in one post, thanks

Please explain what you think my argument is, and why that statement makes it fall apart.

I think my argument really is this:

Sadly this community is beyond sane self moderation particularly on the subject of racism and that a zealously enforced zero tolerance anti racism policy is a really good idea.

[JonnyBGood]

It doesn't its your use of a colour that makes it racist.

Actually racist comments require some concept of inherent differences in order to be racist. As in, 'most black people I've met have an attitude problem' isn't racist (it's an observation which may be true or false), whereas 'most black people I've met have an attitude problem because they're black' is a racist opinion (you're stating that the difference depends on race rather than it just merely being so).

[HRH_H_Crab]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Actually racist comments require some concept of inherent differences in order to be racist. As in, 'most black people I've met have an attitude problem' isn't racist (it's an observation which may be true or false), whereas 'most black people I've met have an attitude problem because they're black' is a racist opinion (you're stating that the difference depends on race rather than it just merely being so).

So if I say to you: "Johnny, I would never let my daughter marry a black man." and you reply "Yeah, most black people I've met have an attitude problem."

If another person hears us, then he shouldn't be concerned that you are a racist because you are just making an observation which may or may not be true?

What about me?

Saying that I don't want to let my daughter marry a black man isn't really an observation is it, its just a statement? It still may or may not be true (I might say that but actually have limited influence on what my daughter does).

Does the fact that its just a statement or an observation make it more or less racist or equally as racist?

Now lets suppose I'm not there at all. You are just some sort of loony that talks to himself and just suddenly says, "Most black people I've met have an attitude problem."

Would someone overhearing that be wrong to infer some racist comment in your statement?

Im no more comfortable with your definition of what constitutes a racist comment, than I am if I hear someone saying:

"but I don't understand how the n word can be offensive because I hear so many rappers referring to each other using that word, and in any case its just an informal form of negro!"

And its precisely because these things are so murky that in certain environments it might be best to just bring the banhammer down on anything that even looks like it might be contentious (which is my real point).

I think most of the users, once they have dealt with the shock of Fireys post, can probably come up with galpics etc. that won't cause problems, so I really don't see what the problem is.

[HRH_H_Crab]

Heres another one for you Johnny:

Actually racist comments require some concept of inherent differences in order to be racist.

I think thats wrong and here is an example, if you are black, and we just met, and I ask you if you like hip hop based on some lunatic stereotype which I have latched onto because of the colour of your skin, I think thats racist.

But the statement "do you like hip hop?" lacks any reference to "inherent differences" whatsoever.
So I think what you wrote is not true.

Do you agree?

[JonnyBGood]

You're just replacing "complete sentences" with "sentence fragments" (I've abused those terms so I've put them in inverted commas).

So if I say to you: "Johnny, I would never let my daughter marry a black man." and you reply "Yeah, most black people I've met have an attitude problem."

My sentence, to make sense without yours, would need to be "yes it's reasonable to not let your daughter marry a black man because most black people I've met have an attitude problem.

Does the fact that its just a statement or an observation make it more or less racist or equally as racist?

Observations aren't racist. Obviously if I went around randomly blurting that (or anything out) I'd probably have some sort of problem and I might in fact be a racist but one doesn't demonstrate the other.

I think thats wrong and here is an example, if you are black, and we just met, and I ask you if you like hip hop based on some lunatic stereotype which I have latched onto based on the colour of your skin, I think thats racist.

But the statement lacks any reference to colour or ethnicity whatsoever.
So I think what you wrote is not true.

Do you agree?

Again context. The fact I've seen you are black impacts on my question. For the sentence to make sense without your presence it'd need to be something like "I assume all black people like hip-hop based on their skin colour" (although the fact it's phrased as a question just means it's implicit in what I say).

As I said it requires some "concept" of inherent differences. It doesn't require that concept to be explicitly mentioned in what you say. You need to look at the whole scenario (context!) to see if something is genuinely racist or not.

I think most of the users, once they have dealt with the shock of Fireys post, can probably come up with galpics etc. that won't cause problems, so I really don't see what the problem is.

Better yet, remove gal banners and gal names.

[Goatsemaster]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

I think thats wrong and here is an example, if you are black, and we just met, and I ask you if you like hip hop based on some lunatic stereotype which I have latched onto because of the colour of your skin, I think thats racist.

I think you're conflating prejudice with racism.

[Mzyxptlk]

And for the love of God, stop double posting.

[HRH_H_Crab]

Originally Posted by ******master

I think you're conflating prejudice with racism.

Nice post.
I particularly liked this line from the page on racism:

"Though the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and hotly contested definitions."

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Nice post.
I particularly liked this line from the page on racism:

"Though the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and hotly contested definitions."

You know what else was hotly contested a while ago? Whether or not racism had a scientific basis.

By a while ago I actually meant right now.

[Goatsemaster]

Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Nice post.
I particularly liked this line from the page on racism:

"Though the term racism usually denotes race-based prejudice, violence, discrimination, or oppression, the term can also have varying and hotly contested definitions."

Congratulations, you are one of us. One of us! One of us!

[lokken]

I'm sorry, this discussion is just pathetic, and I won't let it continue. It's not very often I opt to use "life's unfair, deal with it" to moderate a thread but I don't see this as being a very productive discussion at all. If other mods take issue, they are welcome to discuss it with me. While this thread wasn't initially to do with the forums, it certainly has become one. I'm certainly displeased that someone dropped an incendiary bomb in the middle of PD, then proceeded to behave badly and needed moderating accordingly. I would rather we had gone without this particular thread.

Personally I think we should let moderators use their own discretion to determine what's racist/offensive because we have the expertise and appointed each other on this basis. I did warn PA team that they were causing unnecessary chaos on the forum by misunderstanding borderline jokes, but it seems they have a bee in their bonnet about this and they've been increasingly demanding regarding posts that I would consider 'borderline' or ones that simply needed moderating of late where people crossed the line from 'joke' to 'offensive'.

I have always strained to give users the benefit of the doubt, but it seems anything remotely controversial is resulting in outrage and emails from senior people in PA flying into my inbox telling me to do something via the report post function. I'd rather moderate, give out warnings and help people make better posts than ban people. My advice to all of you is if you wouldn't say it to your friends down the pub, you probably shouldn't say it here. Other than that, post what you want. If you're dubious, you can pm a mod at any time.

I would rather return to the previous situation and have moderators deciding how moderators moderate, but right now the forum is run by PA team and they do what they like with it. All me and the other mods can do is advise them strongly against their current policy. We shouldn't need to discuss this issue, because I think people are pretty much aware that even the current moderators have limits and aren't afraid to ban people if they have to.

As for what happens in game - people should take note of the first post in the thread - that's Fiery's domain and I have no intention on commenting on it.