Round 22 Races: A longer Overview

[Ultimate Newbie]

Its Back! Soveh’s Race Overview thread for Round 22. This time, done before tickstart .

The purpose of this thread is to again assess each of the race's attack combos, compare them against likely defenders, and thus determine their "strength" in attack - which is the primary determinate of success in Planetarion. Similarly, defensive strength of a race can be deduced through this procedure. The structure of the thread will look at attacking fleet by classes, and the units that fire on those classes (ie, the normal way). Only interesting or common multi-class attack fleets will be briefly touched upon at this stage, though may be added to later if I get hit by the boredom stick.

Again, this round’s stats were done by Monroe, based on fixing some of the more obvious flaws in the previous round’s stats. Also, again I used the Stats Analysis Page – thanks for that, Appoco .

Fighter Pods
The only fighter pods this round are Xan's. They have two escorts (as per all attacking fleets), namely the Banshee (FI targeting DE) and Phantom (FI targeting CO).

Ships that target FI are:
Pegasus (DE)
Beetle (CO)
Wraith (CO)
Thief (FR)
Buccaneer (DE)
Voyager (CO)

Thus, just like last round, Xan FI will be able to target Terrans quite effectively as the Banshee fires before the Peg. Similarly, attacking Cathaar and Etd is possible via outflakking any EMP defence they have. The good news for Xans is that the change to the Voyager being the anti FI, is that every time you cap roids, you’re killing some Voyagers, making it just that much easier for you next time (or some other Xan). This is an important change and should reduce the availability of Voyager anti FI due to a) it dying, and b) there is less incentive to produce them because defending against FI is no longer ‘free’.

The other major change to anti FI this round was the change in the Buccaneer’s targeting to FI. This makes Ziks change from a pretty bad target (due to Thieves) to a terrible target for your FI unless you send in a ‘proper’ CO fleet along with to kill all the FR and Cutlasses as well, which clearly leaves you open to any anti CO defence too (like Merchants, heh). Thiefless Ziks, however, are effectively just like Terrans; enough Banshee will probably make them flee. But because of that, I doubt all that many Ziks will be thiefless even though Thieves no longer steal.

So, again, the best targets for your FI fleet will always be any Cathaar or Etd that you can overrun with your FI, followed by Terrans (where you run the risk of loosing ships, assuming they have roids. Heh). Bad targets are other Xans, and (most) Ziks. Nevertheless, I think the FI fleet has seen an improvement in potential over last round, mainly due to the changes to the Voyager, but to a lesser extent, also the Thief.

Corvettes
Two races have CO attack fleets this round, Cathaar and Eitraides.
Cathaar: Viper (FR), Beetle (FI), Mosquito (RO).
Eitraides: Voyager (FI), Vendor (FR), Rambler (RO).

Ships that target CO;
Phoenix (CO)
BW (FR)
Phantom (FI)
Nightmare (FR)
Cutlass (FI)
Cutter (FR)
Merchant (FI)

A lot of changes have happened to the CO fleet of Eitraides, and more importantly, the ships that defend against CO. However, I’ll deal with Cathaar first.

The Cathaar fleet is essentially unchanged, and as such its still quite possible to attack Xans (assuming you’ve enough beetles/vipers for the FI/Nightmares), and other Caths (if you can outflak the BW fire). However, the changes to the Zik’s anti CO (Buccaneer target from CO to FI) means that you can now also attack Ziks with this fleet effectively, again assuming you have enough to overcome their FR/FI. This is an important consideration, as it potentially makes the Cath CO fleet viable in attack, depending on how many Ziks rely on their FR fleet this round. Also importantly, Etd become vulnerable to CO attack as the Merchant fires after Beetles, resulting in a situation where etd might be easier to hit with CO than Xans. I actually think that Cath CO is actually pretty good as an offensive weapon for a change – you’ll be building them for defence anyway, so whether they’ll be home or not will depend. Attack Terrans will still be problematic, even with the changes to the Chimera (cough), due to the Phoenix – sending BW to stun the Phoes defeats the purpose of a low ETA attack fleet.

Etd CO is affected in a similar way, as both fleets are essentially the same; the only difference is that the Etd CO is just a less efficient EMP / later initiative kill version of the Cathaar fleet. However, the differences are important: Attacking Xans is pretty much out of the question due to the initiative advantage that the Nightmare has over Vendors – even if you do manage to stun the FI, the damage potential of Nightmares is probably going to make Xans bad targets. Outflakking Caths or other Etds will still be viable if you can find those targets, and again the Voyager has the initiative advantage over Merchants which means that Etd can actually hit themselves. This could be important for late round play, when Etd planets dominate all the top ranks, there *may* be quite a bit to gain to switch to CO and attack other Etds. Attacking Ziks is again contingent on how many FI and FR they have, but because your Vendors kill with the initiative advantage (although not overly efficiently), you might eventually become scary enough to just flee from. Voyagers are paper thin though, so be careful when landing. Terrans are again a problem, but unlike Caths you can send Merchants along to stun Phoenixes. This, however, leaves you vulnerable to Pegasus fire, so its unlikely to be useful – assuming any Terrans have roids anyway, that is.

Overall, both CO fleets have received a boost, and importantly; Etds are surprisingly vulnerable to both Cath CO and Etd CO. Both CO fleets have difficulties against Terrans.

Frigates
Two races have FR attack fleets this round, Xandathrii and Zikonians.
Xandathrii: Shadow (CR), Nightmare (CO), Vampyre (RO).
Zikonian: Thief (FI), Cutter (CO), Privateer (RO).

Ships that target FR;
Harpy (FI)
Viper (CO)
Roach (CR)
Bomber (CO)
Corsair (CO)
Vendor (CO)
Tycoon (BA)

Both race’s fleets are effectively unchanged from last round, and the ships that are arrayed against Frigates are also unchanged in terms of targeting. Again, countering Corvettes is important in Frigate fleets.

Similar to last round, attacking Terrans with Xan FR is probably a bad idea as Harpies (FI) are not targeted by your FI fleet, thus you need Wraith escorts. Nightmares should make it unprofitable for Phoenixes to stay, and this round there are no Chimera targeting those Wraithes either, thus Terrans are more viable targets for FR this round in comparison – assuming you have enough Wraiths to kill Terran Harpies, which is surprisingly hard to so. Against Cathaar, its just a matter of having enough frigates to outflak any Vipers, however n00b bashing like this isn’t cricket. Xan FR against other Xans last round demonstrated to be about the most common targets; Nightmares still have superior initiative over Bombers, and thus Xan FR incs will again be common. Xan FR should also be able to perform against Ziks as well, again due to the initiative advantage of Nightmares, and Etd planets with their Battleships are wide open to Xan retal – though Tycoons are obviously untargeted by a Xan FR fleet so stay away from them.

Personally, I think the Xan FI fleet is just a little stronger overall due to the boosts its had this round, however there will definitely be targets of opportunity for FR fleets to exploit (namely other Xans, but also random Ziks and Etds with their pants down).

Zik FR’s major change from last round is that the Thief is no longer a steal ship, but it still has the initiative advantage over Harpies. Zik FR does have the better targeting than Xan, as they are able to target Terrans, however due to the initiative advantage that Bombers have over Cutters, attacking Xans is definitely not going to be as easy. As neither ship steals, Zik FR isn’t the attack fleet that is going to pick up ships – which may or may not be your intention – but as such, I don’t think its going to be as common as it was last round.


Destroyers
Two races have DE attack fleets this round, Terrans and Zikonians.
Terran: Drake (DE), Pegasus (FI), Demeter (RO)
Zikonian: Buccaneer (FI), Pirate (BA), Ironclad (RO).

Ships that target DE;
Drake (DE)
Wyvern (BA)
Spider (FI)
Banshee (FI)
Ghost (DE)
Rogue (CR)
Broker (BA)

The major change from last round is that Cutlasses no longer target DE, which is generally a good thing for Ziks. Otherwise, the fleets are essentially the same.

The Terran DE fleet of Drakes (DE) and Pegasus (FI) will have a simple game of chicken against other Terrans, except the Wyvern will inflict damage for no return fire. The Wyvern and the Drake arent very powerful in terms of attack, and the high armour on both sides, means that you will probably still pick up roids. Attacking Cathaar, on the other hand, should be quite easy and profitable for much of the round. Spiders are very efficient given that they are targeting Terran ships, though still manage to stun Drakes/Dems at ~120% and Pegs at ~150%. However, like usual, its just a matter of out-flakking any defending Spiders to get "free" roids. Universal Banshee might prove to problematic, and as such attacking Xan is probably a bad idea. Whilst your Drakes are superior to Ghosts (mainly though the init advantage - they both kill eachother at ~80%), the main problem Terrans will have are Banshees and their plentiful quantities. Avoid attacking Xans as much as you can, however you might find opportunity to retal a Xan attacker with your DE which would most likely just die defending your home anyway (you know his Banshee are out, after all ). Terran DE attacking Ziks is also probably a bad idea, as your fleet cannot target Rogues – you might be able to ride out the storm as per other Terrans, however this isn’t likely to be the case. The good news is, Terran DE is a potent threat to Eitraides; only the Broker (BA) targets DE (plenty of time for early raiding), and even then it only stuns DE at 100-130% - the flip side of the story is that Etds will be building vast quantities of Brokers as they are essential attack ships. If you can get through, then free roids.

Terran DE is again not the strongest of Terran fleets. Like usual, they’ll be handy to fake your battleships with, and may actually work against some Etds and most Caths, but most races will be able to defend against them quite well.

Zikonian DE is a bit different, but Buccs steal rather than kill after Banshee have fired. Furthermore, the Pirate targeting BA will be reasonably effective at attacking Etd, and can potentially target Terrans as well. This round, the Wyvern still has the initiative advantage over Pirates, but it seems to have had a firepower boost as well, as such its still possible to attack Terrans with your fleet, its probably not the best idea. Drakes are problematic as well. Again, like Terran DE, Zikonian DE will be able to attack Caths if they can outflak the efficient Spiders. However, attacking other Ziks will not be effective due to Rogues being untargeted, and in another non-shocker attacking Xans is a bad idea as both Ghosts and Banshees are now effective anti DE.

Thus, Zik DE is only ‘good’ at attacking Etd with Pirates to steal Brokers and roids. The bad news is that there will be a lot of Brokers floating around, so only a strongly specialised DE fleet will be able to get though.

Interestingly, Ziks this round don’t seem to possess an attacking fleet that inspires awe – at least until other ships are stolen – which could result in Zik not being an overly effective race choice for R22.

Cruisers
The only CR fleet again for R22 is Cathaar’s Tarantula (BA), Roach (FR) and Hornet (RO).

Ships that target CR are:
Chimera (FR)
Dragon (BA)
Scarab (FR)
Shadow (FR)
Marauder (BA)
Dealer (FR)

The good news for Cath CR is that their fleet targets all enemy ships, and has the initiative advantage in most instances (only the Scarab is superior). The bad news is, both ships are EMP and thus any and all defence sent against CR calls will survive - and all current and former Cath players know what that means; plentiful and willing defenders. Nevertheless, Cathaar CR will be able to cap roids for zero losses provided you have enough value to stun the enemy. Again, the major anti CR ships (Shadow, Dealer, Scarab) - mainly due to their ETA - have the Roach as their main opposition. As such, who you can attack will depend entirely on how many Roahces you have – Xan is particularly vulnerable due to their total lack of anything resembling EMP resistance, though Dealers are surprisingly weak to Roaches so Etd could potentially be viable. Like usual, if you can get through the EMP barrier, you can attack other Caths – however the ease of defence (Scarabs at home, Shadows et al universal) should mean that you wont be landing all that often. Terrans are bad targets due to the Dragon being one of their attack ships, and the general strength of Terran ships against EMP, however by sending Scorpions/Tarants along to discourage Dragons defending, your Roaches will stun any Chimera, and so you’re only vulnerable to Syren. Don’t n00b bash the Terrans though; actually, why are you launching against Terrans – they wont have any roids anyway .

That aside, when attacking in general, don’t neglect sending Tarants along - Marauders will be good defensive ships due to the Tarants relatively inefficiency against them, plus Ziks always being out on the prowl for free ships to steal .

Again, the CR fleet is only good at Xan bashing and potentially against Etds who don’t have enough Dealers (yeah, right :\). R22 might be the round to take a good long look at the Cath CO fleet.

Battleships
Two races have BA attack fleets this round, Terran and Eitraides.
Terran: Wyvern (DE), Dragon (CR), Leviathan (RO).
Eitraides: Tycoon (FR), Broker (DE), Baliff (RO).

Ships that target BA;
Syren (CR)
Tarantula (CR)
Scorpion (BA)
Spectre (DE)
Pirate (DE)
Ranger (FR)
Investor (CR)

Again, Terran BA has the initiative advantage against someone - other Terrans. Dragons will still target Syren before they fire, however at the abysmal rate of 56%. The good news is, the only thing worse than this is Syren firing back on Terran BA - at the comedy value of 52-54%. As such, Terran v Terran battles will be largely determined by Initiative, and it favours the attacker (although i highly doubt there will be all that much salvage available to the defenders, as nothing actually dies). Nevertheless, other Terrans will be potential victims for Terran BA fleets. Strangely, Cathaars are well positioned to be bad targets for both Battleship fleets; the Scorpion targets Terran BA at ~65% (not bad considering), and Eit BA at 70(Tycoon)-100%(others) - as such i can see the Scorpion being a mainstay of Cathaar fleets, and thus a frequent nuisance to all Battleship fleets. As such, Cath are going to be bad targets (Shock, horror!).

Just like R21, Xan are farms for all Battleship fleets, and the Terran BA fleet is no exception. The Wyvern has the Initiative advantage of the Spectre (DE) – definitely a crime against the Xan race - although the Wyvern is fairly inefficient at killing, “tis enough, tis enough”. Spectres return fire at ~74% which isn’t too bad against Terran ships (cf Scorpion @65%!), but still, the Initiative is what counts here. Again, against Ziks, Wyvern enjoy the initiative advantage against Pirates, however they suffer from a poor kill efficiency; killing Pirates at ~64% with Pirates stealing back at ~82%. However, the worst targets for a Terran BA fleet have to be Eitraides; Rangers will kill Terran BA at ~62-64%, whilst not being targeted in return, thus making Etd bad targets.

In general, however, with the very high armour of Terran Battleships, it is rare that you will crash and "burn" - as Xandathriis find it all too easy to do. As such, you will frequently pick up roids even if you "crash", with (relatively) minimal losses. Terrans as a race should just take advantage of Xandathrii’s total inability to defend itself from heavy classes and wave Xans to death all round. Its hard to go wrong with initiative advantage and 1000000000000 armour.

Again, because not all that much has changed from last round, Etd BA fleets are essentially good at what they were doing before. Etd BA will have hard times against Terran Syren, Cathaar Tarants/Scorpions and Eitraides Liquidators, enjoy the same problems as Terran BA Zik, and steamroll Xans. The prevalence of Brokers (and there will be *a lot* of them), makes Spectres a complete waste of time in defence, and you might as well go off and attack someone. Just like Terrans, all you need to do to ‘win’ is to wave Xans to death.

Attacking other Etds with Battleships is probably a bad idea, unless you manage to steal a decent number of Dragons. However, if you feel inclined to pick upon your own race, then the Corvette fleet is very definitely the way to go.




So, that’s it* for the attacking fleet combos, however, I think it might be worthwhile me stating what I’ll be doing as well as some general comments.

I almost exclusively play as a Xan, because I love initiative (I used to play Cath, but I’m too inactive for it ), plus Xan tends to be better at defending generally. Anyway, R21’s stats were effectively just an exercise in fleeing/despairing whenever a BA or CR wave popped up. Xandathrii, last round, were essentially unable to help themselves against something resembling a decent heavy fleet, and pretty much nothing has changed this round – thus Terran BA/ Etd BA / Cath CR / Zik CR will all be able to roid Xans for essentially free, as well as Xan FR doing the same. Thus, Xans will probably be farms all over again, but having said that, I don’t think Terran will be all that much better than they did last round, and Cathaar has certainly become more difficult to play with the changes in production meaning that they cant build out of incomings as easily or as effectively as in the past. As such, my recommendations for races are definitely pick Etd or Zik if you want an easy ride – but if you want a challenge, go Terran or Cath.

Anyway, on a related matter, due to the changes in Production etas this round, Factories are far more important than they have been in the past, and thus so are Structure Killers now important. The depressing news is – of the five SKs, four of them are Battleships or Cruisers – essentially Xans are now no longer just farms, their factories and structures are buggered too! \o/. Hooray!



*I feel as though I’ve missed something. Ah well, it can wait until after sleep/work tomorrow .

[Juffled]

i think your being overly harsh on terran, i think they might be ok this round

-they are ok against xan if you get enough pegs, and harpy obviously
-against zik, theres a hole against the frigs, the de is unlikely to land as you should have alot of bs anyway.
-against etd you are just stone cold safe, wont get hit
-cath, again of all the useless races with no actual cr defence the terran has the best as its an attack ship aswell with high emp res
-terran v terran, get your etd mate with ranger who will be begging you to defend against it but a hole here yes

attacking is alright, bs can always land somewhere and the de is ok and against etd aswell which should be rather large this round

[isildurx]

If i had played this round actively i would definitively go etd as it is imo the best race by far.

Zik and Ter is ok, cath and xan is baaaad

[Cocteau]

Incestor is CR

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Cocteau

Incestor is CR

Indeed, the Investor is a CR, i listed it incorrectly as a DE, but i was still talking about it being shot at by Dragons, so i wasnt completely loopy at the time .

Originally Posted by Juffled

i think your being overly harsh on terran, i think they might be ok this round

Well, they were terrible last round, and frankly not all that much was changed for Terran this round (Thieves no longer steal, but still fire before Harpies, Wyvern seems to have had a firepower upgrade), which doesnt seem to justify warranting them as all that much better this round. Sure, its probable that they'll do quite a bit better than last round - but frankly, they could only do better this round. That still doesnt make them a good choice.

Etd is so far out in front in terms of a good race to play its depressing. Zik shouldnt be too bad despite it being nerfed, and Caths/Xans/Terrans will all be fighting eachother over who comes last - i'm not sure that the order is all that important.


Good luck with your round though, everyone .

[Makhil]

People who go Xan may consider building only Fi and CO (gain on research and construction) as their FR and DE if not used in attack, are useless in defense. Mass product the fast ships, take 2 targets (or counter your attackers) and try to steal more roids than you will lose. If you have 1 or 2 Etd in your BP than can help you to that, as they could stop your biggest enemies.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Makhil

People who go Xan may consider building only Fi and CO (gain on research and construction) as their FR and DE if not used in attack, are useless in defense. Mass product the fast ships, take 2 targets (or counter your attackers) and try to steal more roids than you will lose. If you have 1 or 2 Etd in your BP than can help you to that, as they could stop your biggest enemies.

I tried doing that last round, but all i think it achieves is that you become this massive incoming magnet to every man and his dog. You get really large numbers of incs for no real reason - except the free roids. Also, XP formula hasnt changed (much) this round, so running off XP probably isnt the best way to play.

Having said that, i'd suggest (and this is what i did last round), is that you pick whether you want to defend against Cruisers or Battleships, and build sufficient defence against that class only, and leave yourself open to the others and try and hope for in-gal def. Last round, i chose to build Shadows as anti CR, because it fit in with my Nightmares/Pods as well (ie, flak), and because all Etd do is build Brokers then Spectres wouldnt actually get to fire anyway - that, plus Spectres being bad against Terran BA didnt make it all that much better. But that's all just my opinion - this round, it might be more important to build anti BA because both Terran and Etd BA fleets will be really common, and having nothing against them could be problematic.

I still havent decided for myself at this stage yet. I'll see about my galaxy when i get there, i suppose.

[Makhil]

the middle way would be to decide that FR/DE is not a top priority and to research some other things like Core Extraction first, then to build a decent fleet of Shadow or Spectre. Ofc that applies only to xans who would choose the FI attack fleets. Tough choice, I haven't decided either

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Makhil

the middle way would be to decide that FR/DE is not a top priority and to research some other things like Core Extraction first, then to build a decent fleet of Shadow or Spectre. Ofc that applies only to xans who would choose the FI attack fleets. Tough choice, I haven't decided either

Indeed, though Core Resources tends to always come with strings attached; because its a fixed number, its best to do it early on, but for some reason whenever i actually do it, its at a bad time. Eg, it delays Infrastructure research so i get capped out at 10 (or 20 or whatever) constructions for a while, or delays a critical roid research or my fighter hulls or something. It somehow manages to never quite fit at the right time .

But i suppose that's for another discussion.

At hte moment, i'm leaning towards going for a FI fleet, and seeing how many etds/caths i can pounce on. There isnt really much point risking your FI against Terrans at such an early stage, when they can still "build out" your fleet reasonably easily (ie, already have pegs in production or whatnot).

[isildurx]

Originally Posted by Makhil

People who go Xan may consider building only Fi and CO (gain on research and construction) as their FR and DE if not used in attack, are useless in defense. Mass product the fast ships, take 2 targets (or counter your attackers) and try to steal more roids than you will lose. If you have 1 or 2 Etd in your BP than can help you to that, as they could stop your biggest enemies.

Im doing that this rnd, for that reason and one other(not telling that one though ). Hopefully i can exile into a big gal and have a slim chance of a half decent round.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Anyway, on a related matter, due to the changes in Production etas this round, Factories are far more important than they have been in the past, and thus so are Structure Killers now important. The depressing news is – of the five SKs, four of them are Battleships or Cruisers – essentially Xans are now no longer just farms, their factories and structures are buggered too! \o/. Hooray!

This is something that needs to be highlighted of the post. Especially xandathrii, but also cathaar to an extent, are in a grave danger here. With the slower construction speeds than on the engineering times, the higher importance of factories thus the higher importance of constructions at large, the two given races will have one significant problem to face: they will be thrown to a situation where they will be forced to sacrifice an amount of their fleet in order to hold on to their structures. With the investor and tycoon hitting the ships that would be able to stop the eitrades structure killers, you will have to field enough shadows or scarabs (that is, on the scenario that there won't be enough defences to cover all such waves on you as "normal" nowadays) to stop the investor-liquidator bulk and be prepared to have those torn to shreads when the tycoons blaze off. Even an attempt to protect yourself with scorpions as a cathaar might well face an investment your scorpions can't handle. What is freaky, is, that it seems that these are the two races who suffer of this problem the most, and eitrades seems to be the only race with such blatantly easy possibility to trash people's structures. So, to underpin it more, xandathrii and cathaar will need to watch out those nasty things, and eitrades may consider this as a tactical tool. Especially during wars.

Edit: oh, well, the love applies to zikonians too - though marauders are a hard nut to crack.
Edit: a pre-shuffle planet/ruler rulername sums up the idea well. 94 28 1:2:42 Exploiting the Stats DestryoingNewPlayers Etd 86 25,628

[Kargool]

Xans have an advantage this round and that is that they only need to build light and medium factories.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Xans have an advantage this round and that is that they only need to build light and medium factories.

Caths only really need to build Light and Heavy factories (CO and CR fleet, FR/DE used for universal defence wouldnt need all that much investment). Terrans might really only *need* heavy factories, though a few lights for Phoenix/Harpies wouldnt hurt.

Frankly, i'd trade the necessity to research Siege weapons and needing to build Heavy factories for a Spectre that was something other than totally crap.


The ETD SK should have been a Frigate (ie, one higher than the CO fleet), or hell, even a Destroyer (the lone Etd DE), imo.

[Gerbie2]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Xans have an advantage this round and that is that they only need to build light and medium factories.

I'm not sure that is a great advantage. Factory output is slightly less than linear to the amount of factories of each type that you have (^0.98). You will need slightly more factories as a Xan, just less different types.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

The ETD SK should have been a Frigate (ie, one higher than the CO fleet), or hell, even a Destroyer (the lone Etd DE), imo.

The eitrades structure killer was discussed in #support, but remained unchanged - too bad.

The "need" for factories depends on if you actually plan on trying to self-cover something through a stockpile or not. Obviously, if you won't even try, you'll need far less.

[Hude]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Zikonian: Buccaneer (CO), Pirate (BA), Ironclad (RO).

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Zikonian DE is different. As no CO ship targets BA, the Buccaneer is probaly a useless escort for this fleet and is (afaik) unique in that dubious distinction.

I guess you should change that since Buccaneer targeting was changed from CO to FI.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Hude

I guess you should change that since Buccaneer targeting was changed from CO to FI.

Not sure what i was on; i copy/pasted to keep the same style as last rounds, but i thought i re-wrote the paragraphs .

Anyway, its kinda ironic how even with such a major error, what i said about the fleet is still essentially the same. :\

[Tietäjä]

It's probably because you talked about it as if it was a DE-FI instead of a DE-CO.

[isildurx]

0 terrans in the top 25, 2 xans in top 25(theyll be gone soon enough). Stats sure seem 'well balanced'.

[Tietäjä]

It's still a little early for critique, but I'm sure the lack of terrans in top ranks surprises nobody. Except maybe Monroe himself, who went with terran.

[JonnyBGood]

Terran still suck fairly spectacularly. The bs fleet is reasonable but pales in comparison to the etd bs fleet (which has started accumulating a lot more terran bs from rangers this round). De is good but best used, as always with terran, as part of a fake.

Versus de in def you're obviously fine. Bs sucks and with the etd accumulation of dragons you might even see some etd bs fleets roiding you. I've been roided by fairly small cath cr fleets this round, which i wasn't expecting to be that possible. Anti-fi is fairly hopeless at this stage of the round but this isn't really a problem per se, everyone can get roided by some things. Widows+beetles roid you fairly easily but any def fleets basically stop it.

From an overall race perspective the research times are decent and the quicker construction is really nice, especially in a round like this, albeit slightly useless when you can't really build out of anything anyways. You can't really do covert-ops at all with the lower stealth rating but this isn't that important.

[JonnyBGood]

Looking over the race stats it's fairly clear this round is heading down the same road as last. 5/17 planets over 1k roids are etd, while only one is cath and one is terran. 10 of the top 20 value planets are already etd. Etd can still hold their roids. Zik can still steal and get a good fleet. Xan still suck. Cath still blow. And terran manage to both suck and blow at the same time.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Looking over the race stats it's fairly clear this round is heading down the same road as last.

Given, that there was a discussion that evidently concluded that "improving existing statistics" is better than "creating a new set", if despite improving the set remains very unbalanced (I've not observed as closely as you seem to have, so I'm not sure), wouldn't it already call for more dramatic changes than just adjusting the poor parts of the poor races in order to generate a status quo?

[Gerbie2]

I disagree. Improving existing stats generally creates a better balance than creating a complely new set of stats. This round is somewhat unbalanced, but not dramatically so.

I'm a terran and despite the fact there is no Terran in the top20 atm. Terrans are not horrible to play with. A great problem for Terrans is that Xan currently prefer to build fighter fleets and have no other good target to hit with it then Terran. There is no safe defence against these ships with a suitable defence eta (or even superior defence eta), like other fleets have to cope with.
The problem for the Xan now is the lack of terrans with a decent amount of roids. This could cause more xan to switch to frigate fleets. (Hint, hint: plz., plz. build frigates and leave me alone. )

I'm not sure what to fix about the Etd, but you might take a look at the Tycoon. Take that away and Etd are suddenly a lot more open to Fr. (Not sure what to give them back for it though.)

[isildurx]

I will be surprised if not 70% or more of the top50 end of round is etd\zik.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Gerbie2

I disagree. Improving existing stats generally creates a better balance than creating a complely new set of stats. This round is somewhat unbalanced, but not dramatically so.

Such directions have the tendency to escalate - if after a few hundred ticks (main researches done) some races start becoming predominant, they usually continue on that path for the reminder of the round, and the less fortunate ones get crumbled. There's still plenty of time, in 500 more ticks we'll have a better clue how it turned out.

If, at that point, it appears worse (what I'd predict), some thought definately needs to be given - or at least more radical "improvements".

[Game^]

Planets over 1k roids

15 = ZIK
8 = ETD
6 = XAN
3 = CATH
3 = TER

Can't say I am at all surprised.

[JonnyBGood]

It's fairly illuminating to look at who has these roids as well in terms of alliances. The top 20 jenova/conspiracy combined planets by roids has one cath and one terran, neither at the top end of the scale. These are alliances who have been heavily targetting each other and the ability of planets to actually hold onto roids is best seen in these scarce defence situations as opposed to outliers like officers and planets with high def priority in other alliances with a wider base for defence at most times.

[Gio2k]

Imo, xans should be roidable by terran bs, and not easily by etds. That would have brought a bit more balance. I mean, if you are going to give spectres such terrible initiative, you should at least have given them a good emp resistance.

[Gio2k]

What i don't understand is the reluctance of PA team to correct stats throughout a round. If small adjustments to the stats will give a more balanced round, why wait for another round?
Stats this round are not that screwed, but still, i can't think of a reason not to apply adjustments on-the-fly, especially when you already did it for example with security engineering.

[Game^]

What I dont understand more is allowing a person who produced such terrible stats the round before the opportuntity to do so again.

[JonnyBGood]

Terrans bs on xan isn't really that good at all this round. If you look at the stats by value weight xan de are harder to kill than zik de by about 40%.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Terrans bs on xan isn't really that good at all this round. If you look at the stats by value weight xan de are harder to kill than zik de by about 40%.

But they still fire before, and are Terran's main attacking options.

What sane Xan do you know willing to dump enough resources into a ship that they cant attack with, and is awful against the other attack make-up it should be there to stop.

Xans will never at any point be able to produce enough spectre and bombers, whilst also maintaining the ability to attack effectively.

Xan's are better off building hardly any, and hoping on alliance/ingal defence to cover both classes.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Gio2k

What i don't understand is the reluctance of PA team to correct stats throughout a round. If small adjustments to the stats will give a more balanced round, why wait for another round?
Stats this round are not that screwed, but still, i can't think of a reason not to apply adjustments on-the-fly, especially when you already did it for example with security engineering.

Because it reduces one's ability to decide one's own fate. The decision which ships to build is up to me, I decide how strong my fleet becomes, no one else. If then, PA Team were to change the stats (presumably to weaken the stronger ships or races, and strengthen the weaker ships or races), would that not reward stupidity?

[Gio2k]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Because it reduces one's ability to decide one's own fate. The decision which ships to build is up to me, I decide how strong my fleet becomes, no one else. If then, PA Team were to change the stats (presumably to weaken the stronger ships or races, and strengthen the weaker ships or races), would that not reward stupidity?

This is not an issue of 'rewarding stupidity', it's an issue of race balance. Regardless of how intellectually superior you might consider yourself for choosing the least ****ed up race, every player should have a chance to compete with his race decision, even if his race choice was not the optimal. In an ideal situation, you win or lose by your own actions or strategy, instead of being predestined to lose by your starting choice.
As i said, stats are not terrible, but still you can see there is a disparity when most top planets are either etd or zik, and the rest of the races are quite under-represented.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by Gio2k

This is not an issue of 'rewarding stupidity', it's an issue of race balance. Regardless of how intellectually superior you might consider yourself for choosing the least ****ed up race, every player should have a chance to compete with his race decision, even if his race choice was not the optimal. In an ideal situation, you win or lose by your own actions or strategy, instead of being predestined to lose by your starting choice.
As i said, stats are not terrible, but still you can see there is a disparity when most top planets are either etd or zik, and the rest of the races are quite under-represented.

This is wrong on so many levels.

First of all stats changed were only made in earlier rounds, when the ships were changed were available to everyone (if I remember correctly).

Secondly addressing any of the changes to attempt to balance ETD and Zik more would require more than the 'odd' change to a ship, its just not as simple as that. These races already have an advantage now as it is anyway, and so any balancing would actually require Ziks and ETD's to be made worse than the other races, which im sure all the average Ziks and ETD's would just love.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Game^

But they still fire before, and are Terran's main attacking options.

What sane Xan do you know willing to dump enough resources into a ship that they cant attack with, and is awful against the other attack make-up it should be there to stop.

Xans will never at any point be able to produce enough spectre and bombers, whilst also maintaining the ability to attack effectively.

Xan's are better off building hardly any, and hoping on alliance/ingal defence to cover both classes.

Logically the answer here is that xan have some fairly useless def ships against certain attack fleets. With 10 different attack fleets in the game this is hardly surprising.

[Gio2k]

Obviously you can't even out the initial advantage by making zik or etd worse than they should be, but you can at least give the other races a better chance for the remainder of the round.
In other online games, when you notice imbalances, you issue patches to fix them. The same approach could be used in PA. Of course you will meet reluctance from the people who chose the "right" race, but i think that is not a reason not to try and balance the game.
I myself get bored if i notice i am playing against someone with a "handicap" since it's not a fair fight, while on the other side, you get the most satisfaction knowing you beat your opponent on fair terms.

[Game^]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Logically the answer here is that xan have some fairly useless def ships against certain attack fleets. With 10 different attack fleets in the game this is hardly surprising.

True.

But the point is, they may as well remove the spectre for what good it is.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Gio2k

This is not an issue of 'rewarding stupidity', it's an issue of race balance. Regardless of how intellectually superior you might consider yourself for choosing the least ****ed up race, every player should have a chance to compete with his race decision, even if his race choice was not the optimal. In an ideal situation, you win or lose by your own actions or strategy, instead of being predestined to lose by your starting choice.

This is this exactly the situation that I strive for. However, you're suggesting that my decisions (and the point at which I make them is irrelevant) are to be undermined by stats changes during the round. But then it would not my decisions that determine how well I would do, it would be based (in part) on which changes are being made by whomever deems them necessary. For me, this is unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Gio2k

In other online games, when you notice imbalances, you issue patches to fix them. The same approach could be used in PA. Of course you will meet reluctance from the people who chose the "right" race, but i think that is not a reason not to try and balance the game..

I dislike comparing PA to other games, but I consider changing the PA ship stats halfway during a round somewhat (keyword) like issuing and installing a patch during a Starcraft match, when strategy choices have already been made.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

I dislike comparing PA to other games, but I consider changing the PA ship stats halfway during a round somewhat (keyword) like issuing and installing a patch during a Starcraft match, when strategy choices have already been made.

Imagine, once you have built your rush troops to attack with, they make them half as efficient as they used to be and you get crushed.

[Achilles]

Originally Posted by Game^

But the point is, they may as well remove the spectre for what good it is.

This is why you were only second xan last round! The Spectre might be a shit ship but that just means that the discerning xan needs a lot of them. (Unless it's even shitter this round?)

[Game^]

Originally Posted by Achilles

This is why you were only second xan last round! The Spectre might be a shit ship but that just means that the discerning xan needs a lot of them. (Unless it's even shitter this round?)

Extra terrans around now, the chance of losing them is now alot higher.

[Gio2k]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

Imagine, once you have built your rush troops to attack with, they make them half as efficient as they used to be and you get crushed.

With the difference that you probably only lost at couple of minutes of playing and can restart the match with updated stats anytime you like, and don't get stuck with useless ships for 2 months.
If you had the same imbalance situation in a game like WoW for example, you would have no other option but to patch on the fly.
I think PA lies somewhere in between.