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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 06:03   #1
Summanus
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'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/me...obe/index.html

I can understand the frame of mind the marine would be in to do it, how do you think the investigation will turn out though?

Even Ollie North said it has to be thoroughly investigated an whatnot
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 06:14   #2
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

i don't think a one of incident constitutes 'us war crimes' but i hope its investigated/dealt with etc etc
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 07:17   #3
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

well this [explitive] sucks, where are these idiots comming from.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 08:18   #4
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

"he's dead now"

give that man a comedy award.

I think the marine will be sentenced and imprisoned regardless of his guilt, as a token gesture to make it look like the US isn't bad. I am not saying that the US is bad, but it will just be a PR exercise. personally I have no problem with what he did though. let the f*ckers rot.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 08:49   #5
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I blame computer games for this.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 09:21   #6
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
personally I have no problem with what he did though. let the f*ckers rot.
If you go to war with the express belief that you are morally superior, that you condem tactics that fall outside the laws of war...then you can't go ****ing executing unarmed wounded men lying on the ground.

Yet another case of the Americans ignoring the Geneva convention which they bitch, moan and complain about others ignoring.
Remember when captured American soldiers were shown on arab TV? Outcry! ITS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION!

Then they sumarily imprison people without any rights, torture them, abuse them, kill them, execute them while lying wounded in a mosque and just shrug and say "what?"
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 09:58   #7
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Originally Posted by IncubusGod
If you go to war with the express belief that you are morally superior, that you condem tactics that fall outside the laws of war...then you can't go ****ing executing unarmed wounded men lying on the ground.
these insurgents went to war with us, not the other way round. We went to war with Saddam and his cohorts, and that ended some time ago.
Quote:
Yet another case of the Americans ignoring the Geneva convention which they bitch, moan and complain about others ignoring.
Remember when captured American soldiers were shown on arab TV? Outcry! ITS AGAINST THE GENEVA CONVENTION!
I don'r much care about that and I think it was pissy whining to be honest.
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Then they sumarily imprison people without any rights, torture them, abuse them, kill them, execute them while lying wounded in a mosque and just shrug and say "what?"
exactly. the people they are killing are scum. less scum is good.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 10:24   #8
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Radical Edward , if you support extra judicial killings then why stop there?! Why not have roaming gangs of soldiers on the streets killing whoever they want at home?
I mean, the people who'll get shot will probably be 'scum'. Either that or people who just happen to piss the soldiers off.
It clearly wouldn't matter if they weren't a threat to anyone at the time, cause they MUST have been bad people. Clearly they wouldn't have been shot otherwise! Right? RIGHT?!?

A solider killing an armed combatant is one thing, a solider summarily executing an unarmed man on the ground stands against everything the U.S. says it represents. Deceny, morality, law and democracy.
Such killings fall under the category of a war crime as it is against international law.

Quote:
these insurgents went to war with us, not the other way round. We went to war with Saddam and his cohorts, and that ended some time ago.
Hang on? So the geneva convention shouldn't have applied to Japan then because they went to war with your in WWII? I mean, you didn't go to war with them!

Listen, this your points just illustrate how deeply hippocritical the United States is about everything it does.
Moral bankrupcy was achieved long before this but this will drag you lot down into the myre even more.

It was wrong. End of story.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 10:41   #9
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

so they completly destroy a whole city, then call everyone who is dead a terrorist (so that there are no civilian casulties) and then they call it a war crime if one guy gets shot in the head?
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 11:25   #10
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

There was a similar video last week that I saw on both the BBC news and the Channel4 news where one soldier said "There's one wounded in between the two buildings" then two soldiers went over, looked over the wall, shot a couple of times and said "He's done now".
I was appalled at that and very suprised that not many people said much about it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 11:58   #11
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Actually, I call it a war crime, because if proven that he shot a wounded, unarmed man in the head intentionally, that's what it is.

I can see the reasoning for why he did it, previous experience with booby-trapped bodies, state of mind etc. etc. Doesn't make it right though.

Oh and Edward, if invading another country, bombing it up the shitter and occupying their land doesn't constitute "going to war" with people, you'd better do some reading.

Before modern times, fighting forces fought fighting forces. Sometimes this was the entire population, but more often it was just those who could fight. In medieval times, moving up to the 19th century this was just regular fighting forces.

But in the modern era, entire nations go to war. Not just fighting forces are targeted, but industries which output these forces and the civilians which operate these industries. Increasingly, guerilla tactics have ben used, especially by forces numerically and militarily inferior.

You can't have it both ways - pick and choose who you fight in this day and age. Either the US goes in and conquers Iraq, or it gets out. You can't start complaining when the population starts shooting at you when you're the ones who've destroyed their homes, infrastructure, employment prospects, sense of order in lives, and make it hard for them to get food and water.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:01   #12
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

in defence of the marine... a comrade of his had been killed the previos day by a suicide bomb strapped to a supposedly "dead" enemy soldier. its down to the underhand tactics of the enemy....
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:49   #13
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncubusGod
Radical Edward , if you support extra judicial killings then why stop there?! Why not have roaming gangs of soldiers on the streets killing whoever they want at home?
nice strawman. This is called war in case you had forgotten. these people wander out of mosques waving white flags, knowing full well what the symbol means, and that the US is attempting to take cultural sensitivities surrounding attacking mosques into account, and then open fire on the soldiers who take their signals in good faith. If that is the way these insurgents are going to behave, f*ck em I say.
Quote:
I mean, the people who'll get shot will probably be 'scum'. Either that or people who just happen to piss the soldiers off.
oh there goes that shiny strawman again.
Quote:
It clearly wouldn't matter if they weren't a threat to anyone at the time, cause they MUST have been bad people. Clearly they wouldn't have been shot otherwise! Right? RIGHT?!?
pretty much. see what goes on there. these scum are hiding in religious buildings, strapping bombs to bodies, and breaking every law going.
Quote:
A solider killing an armed combatant is one thing, a solider summarily executing an unarmed man on the ground stands against everything the U.S. says it represents. Deceny, morality, law and democracy.
Such killings fall under the category of a war crime as it is against international law.
oh well diddums. perhaps these scum should have thought of that before they started cutting people's heads off and dancing around the bleeding corpse. You act like shit, you get treated like shit.
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Hang on? So the geneva convention shouldn't have applied to Japan then because they went to war with your in WWII? I mean, you didn't go to war with them!
well they at least followed the general rules of war right? though they were a bit harsh on the POWs that they got. Still they got nuked, and that was a bit of a violation of the GC, so they got it in the end.
Quote:
Listen, this your points just illustrate how deeply hippocritical the United States is about everything it does.
Moral bankrupcy was achieved long before this but this will drag you lot down into the myre even more.

It was wrong. End of story.
but they deserved it, and they got what was coming to them, so I have no sympathy for them. The last thing we need is bleeding heart liberals trying to stick up for these scum.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:52   #14
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Summanus
Oh and Edward, if invading another country, bombing it up the shitter and occupying their land doesn't constitute "going to war" with people, you'd better do some reading.
that was the initial conflict, not the people being fought against now. The insurgents are islamic fundamentalist maniacs who obviously don't have the interests of Iraq at heart. All the likes of Zaraqui(sp) et al deserve is to be nailed to a wall and left for the crows.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:52   #15
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Hmm, they pull him from his unit, start a formal investigation,try and get iraqi witnesses and you start bitching that the american forces are ignoring the rules of war and regularly commiting war crimes.

Would have preffered that they summarily executed him on the spot in front of a live audience?

--------------------------------------------

As for shooting the guy between the two buildings 1)they have so far been unable to clarify what the marine said 2) How the **** do YOU know that he was unarmed? they had just been taking fire from the roofs of those building and that guy was probably one of them, don't assume that because he is injured he isn't still a threat.


On a side note, it was UK forces and govt that was complaining about OUR troops being displayed on TV by Iran and OUR dead troops being show on al-jazzeera (sp?)
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:54   #16
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
in defence of the marine... a comrade of his had been killed the previos day by a suicide bomb strapped to a supposedly "dead" enemy soldier. its down to the underhand tactics of the enemy....
that's exactly my point. If they go round behaving like that, then they can't expect to bleed in peace. the day before someone was pretending to be dead and a soldier died. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Only in this case, being fooled the second time means having your brain splattered across the wall. no thankyou. rather the insurgents brain than your own.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 12:57   #17
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
On a side note, it was UK forces and govt that was complaining about OUR troops being displayed on TV by Iran and OUR dead troops being show on al-jazzeera (sp?)
do they ever show piles of Iraqi corpses from the insurgents' murders and car bombings? This is what I never get about these arab countries. they always seem to moan like hell when someone else kills an arab, but it's perfectly ok for arabs to butcher arabs.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:02   #18
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

flatten fallujah
squish the 'bad guys' and a heap of americans at the same time
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:07   #19
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
"The sound of a shot is then heard. And in the background, another soldier says, 'Well, he's dead now'."
lol
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:11   #20
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Originally Posted by madi
flatten fallujah
squish the 'bad guys' and a heap of americans at the same time
heh, ensure that fallujah is not used as an insurgent base for say, the next 10,000 years.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:17   #21
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
do they ever show piles of Iraqi corpses from the insurgents' murders and car bombings? This is what I never get about these arab countries. they always seem to moan like hell when someone else kills an arab, but it's perfectly ok for arabs to butcher arabs.

Sadly I cannot answer that as I do not have access to that News station, all I know of it is what I generally see plastered accross the news when they show things that we dont want people seeing.

I imagine they do though.

Oh btw Wu_trax where is this source of yours that has the yanks saying that every dead body they find is a terrorists? I only ask becuase I recall seeing footage of US marines clearing a house and finding dead bodies and stating that they were not sure if they were civilians or insurgents or who they were killed by.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:19   #22
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
...
i doubt the rebels care much if that guy was shot or not. in fact its even better for their cause if he was. the system is quite easy: the more brutal and against any laws the rebels act, the more the us needs to response in the same way. the more the us does that the more support the rebels get.they can only win, even if that guy 'deserved' to be shot.
for the us on the other hand this is bad news, no matter what reasons there might have been.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:25   #23
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

f'kin dumb idea having a camera crew in tow.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:36   #24
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I dont think it was war crimes, as you dont have to take prisoners, for all the US soldiers knew, they might of had the potential of having explosives around their chests... O.o
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:42   #25
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
I dont think it was war crimes, as you dont have to take prisoners, for all the US soldiers knew, they might of had the potential of having explosives around their chests... O.o
You can say that for everyone though. I'm quite sure I wouldn't want to be shot by the police when I'm walking down the street because I might have had the potential of having explosives strapped to me (and I imagine you wouldn't be overly keen on that particular experience either).
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:48   #26
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
as you dont have to take prisoners,

mmmmmmm you do, so long as they do not present a threat.


And jonny beat me to the other part

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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:53   #27
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
As for shooting the guy between the two buildings 1)they have so far been unable to clarify what the marine said 2) How the **** do YOU know that he was unarmed? they had just been taking fire from the roofs of those building and that guy was probably one of them, don't assume that because he is injured he isn't still a threat.
I heard him say "He's done now" on the video clip. It doesn't need clarifying.
I never said he was unarmed, just wounded. Although I'm guessing if he was armed he would have shot at the Soldiers looking at him.

This thread is more specifically about a different video clip however.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 13:58   #28
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You can say that for everyone though. I'm quite sure I wouldn't want to be shot by the police when I'm walking down the street because I might have had the potential of having explosives strapped to me (and I imagine you wouldn't be overly keen on that particular experience either).
well don't go walking round in a war zone where people do strap explosives to themselves then.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:00   #29
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I heard him say "He's done now" on the video clip. It doesn't need clarifying.
I never said he was unarmed, just wounded. Although I'm guessing if he was armed he would have shot at the Soldiers looking at him.

This thread is more specifically about a different video clip however.
A different clip but the same attitudes and problems are present plus this threads title is pluralised (is that a word?)..

Funny because I heard him say 'he is gone now' and most news sources say that its unclear.

Maybe he was changing clips, trying to unjam his weapon, trying to pull the pin on a grenade, reload an rpg,maybe he just hadn't spotted the marine looking at him yet or was trying to aim at him....all of which earn a free 7.62 mm round in the face because soldiers are not obligated to risk their lives or the lives of their fellows to take you prisoner.

War sucks and people die, some times they deserve it and sometimes they dont .
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:02   #30
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You can say that for everyone though. I'm quite sure I wouldn't want to be shot by the police when I'm walking down the street because I might have had the potential of having explosives strapped to me (and I imagine you wouldn't be overly keen on that particular experience either).
Oh come on Jonny. I'm not sure I agree with Qdeathstar, but firstly, they're not police. Secondly, you're not walking around the streets of Fallujah waving a gun and blowing things up. You've got the circumstances slightly muddled.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:05   #31
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

put yourself in the marines position....if you thort there was a slight chance of him being a danger, would you have pulled the trigger??

i damn sure would have
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:11   #32
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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I blame computer games for this.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:48   #33
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

o they're in the mosque

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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:54   #34
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
well don't go walking round in a war zone where people do strap explosives to themselves then.
Why go outside at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boogster
Oh come on Jonny. I'm not sure I agree with Qdeathstar, but firstly, they're not police. Secondly, you're not walking around the streets of Fallujah waving a gun and blowing things up. You've got the circumstances slightly muddled.
From reading that article it appears he was one of a group of wounded men who were found in a mosque which had been the source of mortar and small arms fire the previous day. There's a reasonable probability he was involved in illegal actions but did he deserve to be shot just in case he was carrying a bomb. What is the mark at which these actions become acceptable in the name of the greater good? For example if every Palestinian walking around Israel was shot on sight there'd be far less suicide bombings. There has to be some element of suspicion involved that something else is going to happen. Approach the man in question with the intention of checking him for weapons, inform him that if he makes any sudden movements he will be killed (I don't think they've invented psychically activated bombs yet). Have someone keep their sights on him while this is occurring. I'm quite sure someone more heavily involved in the military side of things in Iraq can make a better suggestion as to how to check people for bombs. They are an army, they're not children.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 14:54   #35
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 15:16   #36
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why go outside at all?
context
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 18:12   #37
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
From reading that article it appears he was one of a group of wounded men who were found in a mosque which had been the source of mortar and small arms fire the previous day. There's a reasonable probability he was involved in illegal actions but did he deserve to be shot just in case he was carrying a bomb. What is the mark at which these actions become acceptable in the name of the greater good? For example if every Palestinian walking around Israel was shot on sight there'd be far less suicide bombings. There has to be some element of suspicion involved that something else is going to happen. Approach the man in question with the intention of checking him for weapons, inform him that if he makes any sudden movements he will be killed (I don't think they've invented psychically activated bombs yet). Have someone keep their sights on him while this is occurring. I'm quite sure someone more heavily involved in the military side of things in Iraq can make a better suggestion as to how to check people for bombs. They are an army, they're not children.
I agree. I don't think he should have been shot either. However, I think it understandable, in the circumstances - and furthermore, I do not think it is reasonable to interpret these actions as standard miltary protocol and/or everyday occurrences in Iraq.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 18:23   #38
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Exclamation Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I don't think there's enough information on the video clip to conclude that the killing was or wasn't justified. An investigation is certainly warranted however and that's what they're doing.

And why were wounded insurgents left there the previous day?
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 18:59   #39
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Exclamation Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Shoot africans on sight before they infect you with aids!
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 21:18   #40
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I'm personally appalled at the criminal behaviour displayed by the insurgents. How dare they defend themselves against our glorious liberating army!

Radical Edward has been an idiot in this thread but this was the highlight :
Quote:
these insurgents went to war with us, not the other way round. We went to war with Saddam and his cohorts, and that ended some time ago.
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 21:43   #41
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm personally appalled at the criminal behaviour displayed by the insurgents. How dare they defend themselves against our glorious liberating army!

Radical Edward has been an idiot in this thread but this was the highlight :
Yes, we have liberated Fallujah from, er... Iraqis


In other news, war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 21:50   #42
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

and now they are liberating mosul...
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Unread 16 Nov 2004, 22:14   #43
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Let the US kill them all. Kneejerk reaction

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Unread 28 Nov 2004, 11:58   #44
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I didn't really want to start a new thread on this so I decided to bump this one...

Very interesting reading from the website of the reporter who taped the incident.
http://www.kevinsites.net/
The first article on the main page is an open letter to the marines.

What do other people make of it? Especially Tacticus and Radical Edward etc who were (kind of) defending the marine.
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Unread 28 Nov 2004, 13:00   #45
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

well having read that (my earlier posts were just being provocative and not really a proper reflection of how I feel on the issue) It seems to be a pretty complicated situation. The marine was shot in the face the day before (I assume with bullets and not....), and clearly it is not obvious what he has experienced before. I had heard that he was also present in the other incident mentioned, where a body was booby trapped, and the fact the marine thought the man was "faking" would obviously raise suspicion that he thought the man was perhaps planning something - and I think this is a critical point here. The other people were clearly not "faking" in his eyes, and so might have been viewed with less suspicion and hence not shot. - seems they were also bleeding too, having just been shot again and so probably less capable of doing something anyway.

If the killing was purely vindictive, then I feel the marine should be duly punished for his actions, however if he was concerned for some reason - for example concerned that the man was faking being dead in order to detonate a concealed bomb or whatever, , then I would tend to err in his favour.
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Unread 29 Nov 2004, 02:25   #46
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Exclamation Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I didn't really want to start a new thread on this so I decided to bump this one...

Very interesting reading from the website of the reporter who taped the incident.
http://www.kevinsites.net/
The first article on the main page is an open letter to the marines.

What do other people make of it? Especially Tacticus and Radical Edward etc who were (kind of) defending the marine.
I wasn't really defending the marine, except to say that I didn't think there was enough information on the video itself to come to any sort of conclusion.

I've already read Sites' account and it while he offers some observations which could be cited in the marine's defense, he also offers some that could be used against him.
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Unread 29 Nov 2004, 10:56   #47
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

to be fair, its a warzone, its not a fair and just situation where its easy to determine what to do. Possibly what the marine did was wrong, however, i personally dont think that the marine should be charged, but that is a personal opinion
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Unread 29 Nov 2004, 12:12   #48
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

From what I've read, seen and heard it would appear that the killing of the injured Iraqi was uncalled for. The marine should be brought up on charges. There were many other options open to him apart from murdering an unarmed unmoving man if he thought he was a threat.

The journalists open letter was eye opening alright. Seemed heartfelt and honest. I don'y like the way he's being painted as a liberal nut who hates "those brave american boys just doing their duty". If you are doing your duty then you follow your procedures. You make sure you keep the moral high ground. You do not act however you wish. I think the journalist gave his account on why he thought what happened needed to be told very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
put yourself in the marines position....if you thort there was a slight chance of him being a danger, would you have pulled the trigger??

i damn sure would have
I personally wouldn't have considered a wounded man, lying motionless, uncovered on the ground with his eyes closed a danger.
If I did consider him a danger then I'd have covered him with my weapon until a fellow soldier could search him for weapons, explosives and so on.

Having been in the army myself I find such actions sickening.
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Unread 29 Nov 2004, 12:27   #49
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Re: 'That' video of US War Crimes in Fallujah

I probably would have pulled the trigger as well because I'm a coward (and a civilian). If I was a marine who had been trained and such I hope I would feel differently.
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