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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 01:44   #51
BloodyButcher
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
It turns out that a lot of people think that fighting for the win is not actually as great as you do, Forest. Waking up at ungodly hours to defend, planning your life around checking the game at specific hours, interrupting your work day to run into a bathroom with your phone to respond to someone's inane requests... for many players, that's a 'thanks, but no thanks'. Certainly not everyone, maybe not even a majority of the current player base (which is heavily selection-biased in favour of no-lifers), but definitely a more than a handful of people.

Still, this game plays a big part in our lives, no matter how much we like to hate on it. If you want to keep in touch with the friends you met through the game, the best way to do that is by having a planet and being in their alliance, even if you don't actively play. Once you have a planet, but no real interest to invest the time and effort necessary to perform well, it's natural to engage in lolwaves. The mechanics of lolwaves dictate that only one in of twenty or so people needs to do anything (the BC), so it's perfect for alliances with member bases that have lost interest in high effort strategies. Just launch when and where the BC tells you to, and check (4-6)-(7-9) hours later if you need to recall. And even if you forget to check, whatever, it's not like it's very important.

Your claim that lolwaving hurts the game in the long term could be valid, though it's hard to tell without any numbers. Trolling keeps people at least somewhat interested in the game, but they also chase players away. We don't have data on which group is bigger: the trolls or the quitters. Orthogonal to that, it's definitely possible that they make the atmosphere of the game worse. Quality vs. quantity. Then again, it's not like PA was ever unicorns and teddy bears to begin with.

Anyway, even if we assume you're right (and at a guess, I think you are), you're misplacing your blame. It is up to the game designers to create an environment in which players can have enjoyable experiences. If players are incentivised to act in ways that reduce the amount of enjoyment other people can derive from it, by whatever mechanism, in-game or outside of it, physically, mechanically, psychologically, whatever, then that's 100% the game designers' fault. They should've created a game in which players are given incentives to behave in ways that make the experience for everyone better. That's their job description.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, check out some of the things Riot Games and other multiplayer game publishers are doing to foster a healthy and enjoyable environment for their customers.
I guess your position within some of the "troll tags" somewhat disqualifies you from the discussion if they are good or bad for the game.
FOCKERS was the first modern troll tag, lead by Dav the cheater, 15 rounds back, and they seemed to randomly target people to try ruin their enjoyment of the game.
All people who feel theyve been unfairly taken out by any of the troll tags, while going on about their day, will have a negative view of you.
I remember a few rounds back when HODORS kept FCing BowS on the commands of CarDi the cheater, saying that you FC those that roids you is at best a only part of the truth.
Now, i like the idea of being able to "enjoy retirement" in a smaller casual tag, and i hope you guys continue this as its good for the game, BUT sometimes i think you dont weighten the impact you have on the game negatively. The punishment dont fit the crime.

Now, anyone who think that having smaller, and more "elite" tags will make the game more competetive for the average joe is simply wrong, and they most likely are pretty new to planetarion or got very little history knowledge.
The demand of those 30 chosen players will be much much bigger than it is today, and there is no room for slackers in a tag going for the win.
The chance for a new player, or someone not waking up every night 5 weeks straight, to be in the position to win is slim to none.
All the c*** about you cant be competetive in todays PA with a lesser tag is simply wrong.
1up, eXi, Asc, and Ultores proved that this is possibole with 20-30-40 playerd less than the tag limit basicly, with some modification of the reality.
Id love to see Krypton or MrLobster go start a tag of their own, and have it running for 3 rounds straight atleast, to show the doubters that anyone can basicly go out and do this. Atleast it would shutdown one of the biggest arguments against lowering limits.
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 02:31   #52
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Re: Alliance size

Seriously, what does it realy takes to run a alliance?

Lets say you get 5 friends who wants to start a alliance with you, and the first thing you begin with is dividing roles and duties, much like in your childhood when playing football, everybody wants to be the attacker, the Ronaldo or the Maradona. Nobody voulanteers to be the Dunga or Emerson.

1. Everybody most likely wants to be the political chief, or the stats chief(who dosnt hate bad race strat or "bad" political moves?).
This usualy requires the least time, and makes you very adjustable to how much time you gotta put into the game on a daily basis.

2. Maybe one of you knows how to set up tools, or knows somebody who will help them setting up SMS/call services wich you will need to compete at a top level, so being incharge of tech aint that bad of a job for a HC.
Being avaible when the tech fails might force you to be avaible on certain times you rather not be online on.

3. Picking the right targets, and being able to choose who to hit(when the politcal chief aint deciding) is not the worst job you could get, though it requires you to set up a time of your day, every day, where you have to be at your computer or being able to set up raids at a set hour for impatient members, who often are unhappy with the targets being selected or angry cus they wernt fast enough to get the best ones for themself. Being incharge of attack could perhaps be a decent, not too time consuming job, if your it fits you schedule.

4. Internal affair/Intel/recruitment is often a job wich will give you headace. You need to keep up to date with who is where in regards of other allies, planets, and what not.
You will have to be very much up to date on who is who when accepting a new member, because you dont want spies to infiltrate and sabotage your alliance. Unless you got good contacts or has been around long enough to know basicly every alliance/players/groups the last 60 rounds you are unlikely to be able to pick out a imposer, from a player you want in your alliance. Your often told to go snatch the good players of other alliance to bulk up your own.
Every day you will have members not staying in line. They are cheating, they are attacking outside of raid, and generaly doing stuff thats often forbidden in your alliance. You need to keep newsscanning your members, and following their every movement to make sure nobody is harming your alliance reputation, or breaking deals you might have with other alliances.
Sometimes a member start fighting with other members of the spoils of war, and you have to be the adult person to make sure they dont create disharmony in your alliance.
You often are the one who has to make sure you got scanners for the upcomming round, and you are the one people point to if someone lacks access or stuff like that.
This is a free role, but its a very demanding role, and very few is actualy very good at any of these tasks.

5. If you lucky you got someone who is able to DC a few days a week, giving hours and hours of your life to save the rest of the alliance, often being repaid with anger from members feeling its your fault you didnt cover their incs the next day.
This requires you basicly to have PA as a second job if you are gonna do this good, or it requires you to have a job/life who actualy allows you doing this.

--

Now im sure many will say that HCing a alliance isnt so demanding, and that you will have members/officers who will do a lot of the pulling, but ironicly enough with less members in each tag, there will be less people "pulling the weight".
Im 1000000% sure that people like Zhil, Irvine, Forest, Connovar, GenChaos, SnowSeal, Bible, and everyone else who has ran a alliance the last 2-3 years, will say that its a VERY demmanding job to run a proper alliance, even worse a "competetive" one. And this is with having experince people pulling a lot of the weight in the everyday demands of BCing/DCing, a luxury for any alliance these days.
People thats willing to run a alliance either dont know what they are getting into, can fit it into their life, or actualy enjoy it(or are obsessed with it).
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 08:06   #53
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I guess your position within some of the "troll tags" somewhat disqualifies you from the discussion if they are good or bad for the game.
This is ad hominem that not invalidate anything I've said. On top of that, it's just plain wrong, which you would have known if you'd bothered at my planet for about 3 seconds. But no. Instead, better go with whatever you think I'm doing, without regard for facts or reality, in that acid dream you call a brain. If you cannot reply to the content of the post, just shut up.

(If anyone ever wonders why I sometimes lash out at people on the PA forums, this is why: it is incredibly discouraging to spend an hour or two writing a constructive and well-thought out post, in an attempt to have an informative discussion that both sides could take something away from, only to have some ****tard go "herp derp but aren't you like in NAZIHODOFOCKCENDANCY lolol". And then people have the audacity to call me a troll. Hilarious.)
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 6 Sep 2015 at 08:15.
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 08:20   #54
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is ad hominem, does not invalidate anything I've said, nor is it more than tangentally related to it, and just plain wrong, which you would have known if you'd bothered at my planet for about 3 seconds. But no. Instead, better go with whatever you think I'm doing, without regard for facts or reality, in that acid dream you call a brain. If you cannot reply to the content of the post, just shut up.

(If anyone ever wonders why I sometimes lash out at people on the PA forums, this is why: it is incredibly discouraging to spend an hour or two writing a constructive and well-thought out post, in an attempt to have an informative discussion that both sides could take something away from, only to have some ****tard go "herp derp but aren't you like in NAZIHODOFOCKCENDANCY lolol". And then people have the audacity to call me a troll. Hilarious.)
Suround yourself with trolls, cheaters and other questionable characters, and people will view you as one of them.
Afaik youve been playing with Fightin-irish/Asc/HODORS in the past, and to my knowledge theyve been spending time trolling.
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 15:07   #55
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Re: Alliance size

Apparently you know less than you think.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 19:38   #56
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
I'm not going to bother trotting out all the reasons why the "smaller tags would be great" faction is wrong. Please read the earlier threads for that.

However, I'll remind you of two of them:
1/ Who is going to run (all) these new alliances that you think will magically appear when tag sizes are reduced?
2/ What happens to the (suddenly) "surplus to requirement" players from the existing alliances? Bear in mind that these will not be the keenest or most active players in those alliances.

When you can provide credible answers to those questions please resume your call for tag sizes to be reduced. Until then, please, for the love of God, give it a rest.
1) there is a huge requirements gap between running an alliance of 60 versus an alliance of 20-25. These alliances would [almost] run themselves; people in those alliances are likely to be friends and thus cooperate a lot more effectively.

2) they would start thier own factions, ones with similar players, skill sets and activity.

There is no evidence to suggest this wouldn't work. It's not like we already have a winning formula. Nobody is here because the thought of joining BF fills them with ambition and drive. They're here because they have a few mates and they don't want to let them go. No homo.
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 20:04   #57
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
1) there is a huge requirements gap between running an alliance of 60 versus an alliance of 20-25. These alliances would [almost] run themselves; people in those alliances are likely to be friends and thus cooperate a lot more effectively.

2) they would start thier own factions, ones with similar players, skill sets and activity.

There is no evidence to suggest this wouldn't work. It's not like we already have a winning formula. Nobody is here because the thought of joining BF fills them with ambition and drive. They're here because they have a few mates and they don't want to let them go. No homo.
Whats the difference, and what is your experince with this in modern PA?
The average incs of a planet is daily 1 fleet, usualy in the night time, its safe to assume that either way you will have a DC alive to DC every day.
If it was so easy to create alliances why aint we seeing more of them?
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Unread 6 Sep 2015, 22:27   #58
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
1) there is a huge requirements gap between running an alliance of 60 versus an alliance of 20-25. These alliances would [almost] run themselves; people in those alliances are likely to be friends and thus cooperate a lot more effectively.

2) they would start thier own factions, ones with similar players, skill sets and activity.

There is no evidence to suggest this wouldn't work. It's not like we already have a winning formula. Nobody is here because the thought of joining BF fills them with ambition and drive. They're here because they have a few mates and they don't want to let them go. No homo.
1/ There is almost no difference in the effort required to run a 60 man alliance and a 25 man alliance. You need the same number of active people to run each of them. Members #26 to #60 are the foot soldiers who (more or less) follow the alliance line.
2/ No, those from the top alliances might join lower ranked alliances (thereby displacing even more members from those alliances) or they might quit - but they are unlikely to form new alliances. Don't forget that they will be the least keen and least active members of their former alliance.

As I said, *credible* answers are required - not the same old (discredited) drivel that crops up every time we "debate" this subject.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 06:33   #59
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Re: Alliance size

Neither of you have provided any evidence as to why this wouldn't work. It's just you two rambling on to maintain a game you're not willing to see change in.

BB you're running a 50 man alliance, so the current game set up suits you perfectly. ArcChas, I have no idea who you play for but I'm assuming it's in a 55+ tag.

You're both right, I have no experience in this and nor do I claim to be an expert. I'm just asking why we can't run a beta using the new proposed alliance model and we can evaluate after.

Survey the players on their initial reaction - did the enjoy the experience, is it something they wish to see again?

Review the round data - how many planets stayed till past t1000? Was there a clear divide in the t3 alliances versus the other 20?

Impact on the next round - have less planets signed up? Have more?

We could even do it in a speed round? although this data wouldn't be an identic match to standard round; it would at least be an indicator.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 07:56   #60
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Re: Alliance size

Actually, Veil05, you're wrong. There's plenty of evidence to support the statement that changes to the tag limit have never had any noticeable effect. The body of evidence to support that statement is not missing, it's overwhelming: it's every time the tag limit was raised or lowered in the last 50 rounds of PA, with undetectable impact on player numbers.

Which brings us to the reason people get so tired of threads like this: no one has ever managed to explain why this time, it'll work, honest. They can't, because the original premise is wrong: changing the tag limit has never had much effect because it's not a major factor in determining the success of PA.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 08:08   #61
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Actually, Veil05, you're wrong. There's plenty of evidence to support the statement that changes to the tag limit have never had any noticeable effect. The body of evidence to support that statement is not missing, it's overwhelming: it's every time the tag limit was raised or lowered in the last 50 rounds of PA, with undetectable impact on player numbers.

Which brings us to the reason people get so tired of threads like this: no one has ever managed to explain why this time, it'll work, honest. They can't, because the original premise is wrong: changing the tag limit has never had much effect because it's not a major factor in determining the success of PA.
Thanks Mz. To be honest, I'm indifferent on the matter. I just wanted to see if it had been trialled before.

What were the limits raised or lowered to? How many consecutive rounds were they kept lower or higher - was it significant to allow the change to take place? What other data was pulled - player reactions etc?

Was trialled over a number of rounds with both low and high (currently) tag limits? I never recalled a time when this was embedded over a number of rounds or with the limits as low as 30/40.

I understand if you don't have all the answers but where would I find them? Were these posted on one of the original threads?
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 08:48   #62
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
..., Innsomnia, ..., 13 alliances gone the last 10 rounds? Why is this?
I can't speak for the other alliances that came and went away again, but the round InSomnia played was meant as a one time reunion round. We never had any intentions of forming a long term alliance
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 11:36   #63
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
I understand if you don't have all the answers but where would I find them? Were these posted on one of the original threads?
We've never had tag sizes as low as 30 - but the arguments against such a reduction (and the evidence to support them) are indeed in the many previous threads.

You're right about me being a member of one of the larger tags though.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 13:38   #64
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
BB you're running a 50 man alliance, so the current game set up suits you perfectly. ArcChas, I have no idea who you play for but I'm assuming it's in a 55+ tag.
No. We would be 30 man tag if we were to cut inactives and new recruits this round.
If we didnt have a limit to comfortably move within, we wouldve been way harder on who we are allowing inside our tag now. Only the 20-25 most active would been considered from last round.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 16:08   #65
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Re: Alliance size

So are you suggesting that only rainbows runs with 30 actives from their near 50 and other alliances with 50-60 therefore must all be active?
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 16:15   #66
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
So are you suggesting that only rainbows runs with 30 actives from their near 50 and other alliances with 50-60 therefore must all be active?
No, what im suggesting is that due to big tag limits we are allowed to not be super strict on what activity levels is required, and due to big tag limits alliances like bows has to recruit a lot of new players each round to keep up with the top tag normaly.
If it wernt for big tag limits a lot of players wouldnt get the opportunity to be in BowS just cus they wouldnt be up to the standards required.
Im not sure how many new players each allie takes in each round, but im sure BowS takes in more than the likes of BF/Ult/CT
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 16:50   #67
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Re: Alliance size

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
What were the limits raised or lowered to?
Absolutely, the tag limit has been between 60 (r25 and r48-now) and 100 (r14, r30, r36, r37).

Relatively, we've seen 1 tag per 30 players (r16-18), 1 tag per 20 players (r26-r29, r33-r34), all the way down to 1 tag per 10-13 players (r36-r37, r44-r47, r53-now). In the current universe, that would be equivalent to tag limits of 24, 36 and 71, respectively.

Here's my spreadsheet and a screenshot of the central graph. Four notes:

1) The alliance limit is charted on the right axis, all other numbers on the left one.

2) When downloading the spreadsheet, you should get a warning because my SSL certificate is not signed. Ignore it, but only in this specific instance.

3) The idle planet deletion mechanism was changed for r23 (causing more planets to be deleted), causing an instant drop in the size of the universe from 2100ish in r19-21 to 1700ish in r23-25. The numbers before and after should therefore not be taken at face value. My best attempt at compensating is to divide the total player numbers by 1.26 for the rounds prior to r23.

4) You can see significant peaks in the actual player numbers and alliance member numbers. See r16, r22, r27, r30, r31, r44, r50 and r53. Without exception, these coincide with free rounds and other major events, like PA (supposedly) getting axed or sold. Since these peaks never last for more than 1 round, I've compensated for them by simply averaging the numbers of the rounds before and after. I've indicated those rounds with comments in the raw inputs, and they are clearly visible in the graph as well.

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
How many consecutive rounds were they kept lower or higher - was it significant to allow the change to take place?
The best data we have is for 80 man tags, between r38 and r47, when the player base was between 850 and 1200; and for 60 man tags, from r48 to now, with a player base between 700 and 850. During both eras, the trend shows a slow decline in the PA player base. The tag limit going down had no significant effect that I can see.

The tag limit was set fairly haphazardly in earlier rounds, when the player base was larger, so the data for those rounds is rather useless.

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Was trialled over a number of rounds with both low and high (currently) tag limits? I never recalled a time when this was embedded over a number of rounds or with the limits as low as 30/40.
The tag limit has never been that low in an absolute sense, but the alliance limit to universe size ratio has regularly been as high as 1 tag per 20-30 players (r14-r33), which would be equivalent to having a tag limit between 24-35 in the current universe. It's worth mentioning that this ratio has never been as low as it is now, relatively speaking.

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
I understand if you don't have all the answers
I've never been insulted like this in my life.

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
What other data was pulled - player reactions etc? (...) but where would I find [the answers]? Were these posted on one of the original threads?
The only data we have comes from here. There hasn't been no attempt at gauging the opinions of the PA player base since I started playing in r16, at least.

(Personally, I'm not sure it's fair to expect that kind of research from PA Team, nor whether such research would be useful in the first place.)
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 7 Sep 2015 at 16:57.
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Unread 7 Sep 2015, 20:32   #68
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Re: Alliance size

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Absolutely, the tag limit has been between 60 (r25 and r48-now) and 100 (r14, r30, r36, r37).

Relatively, we've seen 1 tag per 30 players (r16-18), 1 tag per 20 players (r26-r29, r33-r34), all the way down to 1 tag per 10-13 players (r36-r37, r44-r47, r53-now). In the current universe, that would be equivalent to tag limits of 24, 36 and 71, respectively.

Here's my spreadsheet and a screenshot of the central graph. Four notes:

1) The alliance limit is charted on the right axis, all other numbers on the left one.

2) When downloading the spreadsheet, you should get a warning because my SSL certificate is not signed. Ignore it, but only in this specific instance.

3) The idle planet deletion mechanism was changed for r23 (causing more planets to be deleted), causing an instant drop in the size of the universe from 2100ish in r19-21 to 1700ish in r23-25. The numbers before and after should therefore not be taken at face value. My best attempt at compensating is to divide the total player numbers by 1.26 for the rounds prior to r23.

4) You can see significant peaks in the actual player numbers and alliance member numbers. See r16, r22, r27, r30, r31, r44, r50 and r53. Without exception, these coincide with free rounds and other major events, like PA (supposedly) getting axed or sold. Since these peaks never last for more than 1 round, I've compensated for them by simply averaging the numbers of the rounds before and after. I've indicated those rounds with comments in the raw inputs, and they are clearly visible in the graph as well.


The best data we have is for 80 man tags, between r38 and r47, when the player base was between 850 and 1200; and for 60 man tags, from r48 to now, with a player base between 700 and 850. During both eras, the trend shows a slow decline in the PA player base. The tag limit going down had no significant effect that I can see.

The tag limit was set fairly haphazardly in earlier rounds, when the player base was larger, so the data for those rounds is rather useless.


The tag limit has never been that low in an absolute sense, but the alliance limit to universe size ratio has regularly been as high as 1 tag per 20-30 players (r14-r33), which would be equivalent to having a tag limit between 24-35 in the current universe. It's worth mentioning that this ratio has never been as low as it is now, relatively speaking.


I've never been insulted like this in my life.


The only data we have comes from here. There hasn't been no attempt at gauging the opinions of the PA player base since I started playing in r16, at least.

(Personally, I'm not sure it's fair to expect that kind of research from PA Team, nor whether such research would be useful in the first place.)
Thank you. You've put this to bed nicely.

I do however feel there would be a huge benefit in gauging player reaction to changes. It's fairly basic in terms of marketing and almost cost free. Maybe 15 minutes of coding and some sort of 'reward'.
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