Santa Stats

[SantaCruz]

Here's a calc I did in my head.
Fart + flame = krypton
Stop being an ass man. People would take your more serious.

[Krypton]

Etd fr would be even worse with your estimations of emp efficiency vs what I was figuring your figures to be.

Stop taking honest feedback on your stats so personally that you just disregard what was said.

Then I will give you the time of day, instead of thinking you are another one of the a-holes that think they know best regarding the game but continuing to contribute to it's downfall by posting another sh*t set of stats.

[BloodyButcher]

Why dont you go into the stats database, and look for as set you would want to rerun then. Im sure people are more than happy to rerun some old set than taking the risk on a new one

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Why dont you go into the stats database, and look for as set you would want to rerun then. Im sure people are more than happy to rerun some old set than taking the risk on a new one

I talked to appoco about this a few rounds ago. He doesn't like reusing stats.

Back to my stats. I can finally get my emp in order as appoco fixed the error i was getting when i tried to edit. So will be working on that abit tonight.
1. Get Emp Base to start
2. Tweak A/C D/C E/R (atm everything is just a basic race avg) Which i believe i've said about 20 times now lol. So process can be made again!
3. drink beer
4. drink beer
5. i can't think this far ahead

[Krypton]

Let me know when these changes are up plz

[SantaCruz]

A/C D/C are fully updated. They will still need to be tweaked to balance classes.

E/R i'm 40% done. I'm falling asleep. I will finish updating tomorrow. I've got everything written out. Just takes stupid amount of time to get the numbers you want.

Changes I've made with targeting and ships
ETD
Defenders T1 BS switched to T1 Cr
Rangers T's swamps now T1 Bs T2 Cr
Lancer T2 is Gone

*These changes should help Fr being to weak. Plus my E/r it should be ok.

Xan
Spirit is Gone
Saint Switched to DE T1 Bs T2 Cr init 7

I will finish E/R tomorrow night. I won't be working so late, as I did tonight.

[Krypton]

Looks better. Will look again when e/r is done.

Can i confirm then that what I said was correct by your changes and that you owe me an apology for giving you accurate feedback?

[Krypton]

Also, with these changes, just wanted to confirm that you dont mind def ships + attack ships having same inits when firing into each other.

e.g. Xan's Saint and Etd's Tycoon?

Don't know if you saw this or it's an oversight

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Krypton

Also, with these changes, just wanted to confirm that you dont mind def ships + attack ships having same inits when firing into each other.

e.g. Xan's Saint and Etd's Tycoon?

Don't know if you saw this or it's an oversight

I told you fr was fine. The changes were more to help bs and help etd against Cr. I hadn't did my a/c etc yet. Ashtrays of your want me to say that I'm sorry. Than I'm sorry. I'm not here to fight with you.
Tycoons are going to be edited. Saints init will change also. There is also dragons that are init 7. So I will be fixing that tonight.

[SantaCruz]

Ive fixed those inits. In order to switch Saint from FR > DE and target T1 bs t2 Cr init 7

Buccs init 7 > 8
Wraith 8 > 9
Tycoon 7 > 9
Black Widow 7 > 10
Boardsword 9 > 10

The higher init shouldn't effect these ships.

Going back to finishing up emp now.

[SantaCruz]

arg server just went down again. These stupid multi galleons just keep coming back to screw me over. Finally figured out you can delete ships by setting everying to 0. Soon as i do that to get rid of the extra. CRASH!!!!!!!

i'm going to wait a few and then see if the comes back.

[SantaCruz]

BACK IN ACTION. TURNS OUT YOU CANT NOT DELETE A SHIP BY PUTTING IT TO 0.

I misunderstood appoco and i broke the sever!

w00t w00t

[SantaCruz]

E/R is ruffed in

I'm not sure i want to call A/C D/C or E/R "done".

Now lets figure out how to finish balancing this bugger.

Make sure if i'm changing anything we got solid info on why we are changing it. Just make Beetles eff 180% isn't going to be enough information for me to change anything.
Make beetles 180% cause you need to Co init 2 to be more effective vs etd fi when it gets to fire. etc etc

Have at it boys

[SantaCruz]

Few changes tonight
Chimeara - gone - was pointless
Mantis t2 - gone - was pointless with BW t1 norm on DE
Brigand T1 Fi > T1 Bs. Now Brigand T1 Bs T2 Cr - Zik didn't T1 Bs and already hits fi 3 times.

[fortran]

Imo, if one ally decides to go DE only as attack class (Zik/Cath), they will struggle considerably against FI and DE.
Idk if this approach is correct. But considering only investors, beetles, harpies and cutters, the defense side would need 50% more to get a 30% value loss on the attacker's side and guarantee a recall.
If banshee is added, considering a CO/DE ally, still that relation wont drop below 40% more value.
Added to that, if cutter is also THE only anti-de that can make ally eta, that ally would be in bad situation making DE probably only playable in 60p allies.

Anyway, I dont know how I should put vendors and nix in the analysis and how they would affect it nether what is good or bad. Just wondering if this was intentionally.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by fortran

Imo, if one ally decides to go DE only as attack class (Zik/Cath), they will struggle considerably against FI and DE.
Idk if this approach is correct. But considering only investors, beetles, harpies and cutters, the defense side would need 50% more to get a 30% value loss on the attacker's side and guarantee a recall.
If banshee is added, considering a CO/DE ally, still that relation wont drop below 40% more value.
Added to that, if cutter is also THE only anti-de that can make ally eta, that ally would be in bad situation making DE probably only playable in 60p allies.

Anyway, I dont know how I should put vendors and nix in the analysis and how they would affect it nether what is good or bad. Just wondering if this was intentionally.

I don't really understand what your trying to say? You saying attack is to strong or that DE is the only playable class?

Every race but cath has eta 7 anti de. That was intentional. At this point everything, every ship does is intentional. The point is to find the ships that don't need to do what they do, as it's unneeded or unbalancing stats.

Let me know what you meant so i can understand.

[fortran]

I said an ally going DE as attack ship which means going Zik/Cath seems too fragile to DE and FI incs. But I dont have a scale of fragility to know if everything is right or not. Only it seems not to me.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by fortran

I said an ally going DE as attack ship which means going Zik/Cath seems too fragile to DE and FI incs. But I dont have a scale of fragility to know if everything is right or not. Only it seems not to me.

oh yes De is supposed to be weak to Fi and Bs. De can roid Zik but, it can't roid Cath very easily. De is a Fort setup. It cant be to strong.

Basicly Zik is weak to de but, cath isn't. DE attack setup in general is weak to fi and Bs

[fortran]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

oh yes De is supposed to be weak to Fi and Bs. De can roid Zik but, it can't roid Cath very easily. De is a Fort setup. It cant be to strong.

Basicly Zik is weak to de but, cath isn't. DE attack setup in general is weak to fi and Bs

Idd, DE can work as a fort setup. DE without forts would focus on Cutters and Beetles for DEF against DE and FI. It seems to me Cutters and Beetles are not good against FI incs and that DEF setup would need the same Cutters against DE.

So my conclusion, DE strat is for an ally that could go a mixed strat to fill those holes.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by fortran

Idd, DE can work as a fort setup. DE without forts would focus on Cutters and Beetles for DEF against DE and FI. It seems to me Cutters and Beetles are not good against FI incs and that DEF setup would need the same Cutters against DE.

So my conclusion, DE strat is for an ally that could go a mixed strat to fill those holes.

There has to be holes or a better word "weakness". Or else the setup is to strong. :-P

Every strat has weakness in these stats. The goal is to have no setup over powering the others.

I've tried to set them up so that there is a setup weakness (or two) and a race weakness that is fixed by your attack class pairing.

Like zik being weak to de but, cath having bs that emps and kills de. But both can be roided by fi and bs.

[SantaCruz]

Few people have msged me and brought to my attention that they believe Fi De Bs is to strong.

I'm looking into it

[fortran]

Maybe as you said what makes DE less viable is the fact that FI and BS are strong. That's the balance there imo.
When I thought FI was too strong, I tried to stop it with CO in calcs and saw I needed 150% of the value of the atk fleet to do so. Imo this should be between 125% and 135%. So maybe just small adjusts like these...

[Kez]

Are these the stats which have been chosen? (Still being tweaked I know)

[SantaCruz]

No they haven't been chosen. I believe it's up you people to pick the stats they believe in. I'm just working on regardless. If they don't get picked I will take this round to tweak them more.

[Munkee]

Whilst im not for or against these stats until they are finalised by yourself Santa it would be great if appoco can just let you know whether you will be making the stats for next round. I think we tend to waste so much time commenting on a particular set and then suddenly a few quiet people drop a new thread with their stats a few days before the round starts causing mass confusion all over again.

If it does get confirmed, I'm more than happy to provide comments and tweaks as I'm sure others will be. It doesn't matter who takes the lead but it would be great to get one set to work from instead of a pick and mix scenario.

You never know we may be able to sign up to beta like the old days and actually test them properly with 5 min ticks or so.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Munkee

Whilst im not for or against these stats until they are finalised by yourself Santa it would be great if appoco can just let you know whether you will be making the stats for next round. I think we tend to waste so much time commenting on a particular set and then suddenly a few quiet people drop a new thread with their stats a few days before the round starts causing mass confusion all over again.

If it does get confirmed, I'm more than happy to provide comments and tweaks as I'm sure others will be. It doesn't matter who takes the lead but it would be great to get one set to work from instead of a pick and mix scenario.

You never know we may be able to sign up to beta like the old days and actually test them properly with 5 min ticks or so.

Yes these stats are the ones choosen for next round.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Yes these stats are the ones choosen for next round.

Thats news to me....


I'm going to start working on these again tonight. Kinda took the last few nights off to get drunk.... It was fun.

[Munkee]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Yes these stats are the ones choosen for next round.

Gj talking rubbish noob

[BloodyButcher]

"There is no mafia"

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

Thats news to me....

He's been doing this for several rounds.

[SantaCruz]

Changes. I've balanced Fi/Co attack classes and defence vs each other
Right now both require 70% of attacking value to cover incoming fleets. I build all def anti fi or co at 30% of attackers value. Taking 4 def fleets + main to cover 2 attacking. This applies for both fi and co.

I've made some changes to do this. Every fi/co ship hitting each other was fixed.

Switched Roach T1 Fr T2 Co
Switched Gryph T1 Fi T2 De

Fi is no longer stronger then Co. Both classes can roid each other. Both classes can stop each other with proper defence ships. (so during war you can up your anti Fi from 30% to 40% and use one less def ship to cover co etc)

[SantaCruz]

i should add i ran about 100 calcs to get this done. So make sure you run calcs yourself if your going to tell me i'm wrong. I'm done my research ;-D Show me calcs if i overlooked something please.

Thank you

Calc link
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...rn=53136766692

[SantaCruz]

Just a break down of targeting and how i'm trying to balance these stats. what i expect from them and how the races should interact with each other.

Fi will be weak to Fr
Co will be weak to De
Fr will be weak to Co
De will be weak to Fi
Cr will be weak to Bs
Bs will be weak to CR

Everyone should be able to roid everyone else with proper team ups. Fi/Co/Cr/Bs will around 60% def 40% attack to cover incoming properly. (meaning 70% of attacking value or 30% of your total value e.g if your Ter Fi, you need 30% anti fi/cr/bs, 40% fi att which is powerful enough to land.) *This ofc can be edited and changed based on your alliances naps and wars. If you don't need anti cr. Then that value gets placed elsewhere. This is the best way i can come up with to balance before we know the race setup.

Fr/De will also need to have proper defence fleets. In order to attack they will still be required to order anti fi/co/cr/bs (depending on wars also etc) ETD i'm trying to build to play alone as a great attacker but, having trouble keeping roids. Thats why you see so many emp with it. DE is a fort setup. If you fort de you will have great defence. If you want to risk pl'ing anti fi/co and not getting eta 7 that's a total option for de. They cant not get away with only building a few ships. It would leave them open.

No race will be able to mass 3 or 4 ships and own the round.

[wintah]

Etd now the second EMP race. . . to much emp in my opinion.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by wintah

Etd now the second EMP race. . . to much emp in my opinion.

I've got written down when I get to fr vs bs calcs to change stalwart into t1 fr stealer. Only I'm waiting until I run calcs. If etd steals into fr attack it might become to powerful. If that's the case it will turn into a norm ship. Etd is the hardest race to balance without making it to strong or nerfing it to much and being unplayable.
So sometimes having extra emp is a easy way to make sure they don't over play and still have potential
Blackwidow is another ship that t2 fr might be dropped.
Tonight in going to work on fi vs fr and DE. Hopefully have time to get into co vs fr DE. Than I only have fr vs Cr bs and DE vs Cr bs left.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by wintah

Etd now the second EMP race. . . to much emp in my opinion.

More EMP means more combo's can land vs eachother and more attacking combo's arent easily stopped by some better init kill ship.

[wintah]

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh

More EMP means more combo's can land vs eachother and more attacking combo's arent easily stopped by some better init kill ship.

u mean more attacking combo's are easily stopped by some better init em ship

[Greg]

looks interesting, nice one santa

[SantaCruz]

Fi vs Fr is done
Co vs fr is done
Fr vs Cr <-- i'm having issues with Stealing. Seems that 100% of my defenders will fire. This mains value gains. It's mostly focused only against Xan's however value gaining on attacks can lead to abuse.

Am I missing something here with stealing. I thought it was changed to avoid this. The Eff is only 117%. Tia's stealers are way more powerful and everycalc i run there is NEVER value gain.

[Magnus]

Ter d/c is way too high across the board
Ter e/r too low
Xan a/c too high
Zik steal ships aren't efficient enough
Etd steal ship isn't efficient enough
Black widow is completely backwards

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

Fi vs Fr is done

Am I missing something here with stealing. I thought it was changed to avoid this. The Eff is only 117%. Tia's stealers are way more powerful and everycalc i run there is NEVER value gain.

Value gain is always an option when eff is above 100% and I don't think this is a bad thing.

(silly calcs just to show value gain from stealing)
In current round shipstats:
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=3sgrfwzt9tiv6uv

In your shipstats:
http://speedgame.planetarion.com/bca...dl0qfnrb3epcmf

The trick is, the game kills your own ships while stealing untill it kills equal value compared to the ships you steal, but if you dont have enough ships the game cant kill equal value. So often sending less ships is needed to make sure you gain value from the stealing.
But if you look at the value steal potential of R63 stats, i'm sure yours are fine on that front, stealing eff seems on the low end even.


Oh your SK's are in the same shipclass as roiders, meaning theres almost no downside (besides an angry target) to using them. Usually shipstats are made so it takes some extra effort to land with SK's. So not sure if these SK classes are intentional? If not i'd change them to increase the chance of your set getting picked.

[fortran]

Is average A/C higher than in other rounds? Zik D/C seems around the same values we see in other sets, so if A/Cs are higher, stealing will be less efective. Same with D/C.

[fortran]

I didnt calculated the average but imo how a/c and d/c is usually set. That relation imo gives zik steal always some gain:
Cloak: a/c between 300 and 350, d/c between 400 and 460
Emp: a/c between 385 and 440
Steal: a/c between 440 and 500, d/c between 430 and 490
Normal: a/c between 480 and 530, d/c between 305 and 390

Flavour can be added to stats giving a cath normal ship d/c above average while keeping its a/c similar to other emp ships or giving terran a ship with d/c above average in a non roiding class. I see these being used in previous sets.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Magnus

Ter d/c is way too high across the board
Ter e/r too low
Xan a/c too high
Zik steal ships aren't efficient enough
Etd steal ship isn't efficient enough
Black widow is completely backwards

They were what they normally were. Then edited when I calced. Now they are whst they need to be to balance.
This idea of your a/c d/c etc is to high or low is retarded. Run calcs. Or at least read what I've written here. I've calced fully. Meaning every ship combo vs Evey attack in fi vs co, fi vs fr, co vs fr. Right now fi Co a/c d/c e/r won't be changing until you give me solid proof something is wrong with it. I'm not going by every other rounds stats. They were never never balanced correctly. Stop looking at a/c d/c e/r look at the effs and calc.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh

Oh your SK's are in the same shipclass as roiders, meaning theres almost no downside (besides an angry target) to using them. Usually shipstats are made so it takes some extra effort to land with SK's. So not sure if these SK classes are intentional? If not i'd change them to increase the chance of your set getting picked.

They are supposed to be. Etd fr will change. But rest will stay the same. I've talked to hc's from almost every alliance. We have St. Def now. It's time people start building them. This will change war and make lose interesting. Catching a top planet on 1% and getting 2 cons will be fun.

Problem with etd fr is hulls2. SK pt 24 might not be that great an idea lol.

[Patrikc]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

Am I missing something here with stealing. I thought it was changed to avoid this. The Eff is only 117%. Tia's stealers are way more powerful and everycalc i run there is NEVER value gain.

Salvage was 'fixed' for stealing on defense, so that you'd never end up with more value from salvage than before. But if you don't lose any ships to begin with, and damage more value than you lose, you can still gain from ships alone.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Patrikc

Salvage was 'fixed' for stealing on defense, so that you'd never end up with more value from salvage than before. But if you don't lose any ships to begin with, and damage more value than you lose, you can still gain from ships alone.

Yeah the me in thinking about it the more I'm starting to think it was the calc ****ing up. It would differ from - 150k them +7k, finally I was getting +200k on same calc
In the end even if it wf plus 200k. The calc I was going at that time was 6.5mil value battles. 200k seems a lot but it's hard for two top planets with 6.5mil to find 5mil Cr to freeze. Even if it was the case is only 100k each. I'm just going to put the steal back to the way it was and keep going.

Basically no mastery what defenders arent going to be 150% steal. All and any zik in my stats are being calced to find the right eff for that ship. If one is 160% and another 130%. It's due the the relationship they have against other ships
The way it should be. Every ship is different.

[darkzidane]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

Problem with etd fr is hulls2. SK pt 24 might not be that great an idea lol.

SKs cant be built til hulls3 is done pal so no issues with that

[Tiamat101]

Originally Posted by darkzidane

SKs cant be built til hulls3 is done pal so no issues with that

Thats actually up to the stats maker to decide in past rounds sk's have all been Hull 3 required even if fi/co/fr/de.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Thats actually up to the stats maker to decide in past rounds sk's have all been Hull 3 required even if fi/co/fr/de.

Which is what will be happening with FR more then likely. It's not the fact it's in FR people are upset about. It's the fact you get FR so early.