Universities

[Androme]

I know I know, not another topic heh.

I've applied for my UCAS Card, searched the site for courses around what I'd like to do but there's one or 2 points that I haven't been able to press on. I'm going to the convention on 7th March in Islington which should help me with which courses I'd specifically like to pursue come several months time when the whole applications process begins.

I'm delving into something with Graphics Design as I have the talent and the thriving passion on top. Although, I'd like to dive into Psycology as I find it quite an interesting subject (despite my 'conservative' school not offering psycology as it's not seen as a 'traditional' subject) from what I've heard about it.

What I need help with are areas relative that the Connexions advisor I had a meeting with didn't help me focus down on my interest. She was oblivious to the areas I actually wanted to go into and said I'd have to do some personal research ie: with lecturers at institutions, visit conventions etc. which I'm planning to do.

What I have to ask is (mainly applies to the UK - I don't know about the rest of Europe) - from the vast/little knowledge anyone has here and I'd rather broaden my perspective outside from such conventions: is it worth doing a Foundation Degree, is it recommended to go to an arts college as opposed to a 'traditional' university (are you limiting your social horizons as a result of picking ie: an art college?) - thanks.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by Androme2

I have the talent and the thriving passion on top.

AWOOGA AWOOGA

BULLSHIT ALERT!

BULLSHIT ALERT!

[Androme]

Oooga Booga to you too.

BSHIT Alert has alerted me with the following reference - what relevance it bears is questionable

http://www.lightmind.com/archives/da...d=3311&row=270

[zakoff]

i suggest you get to proper university before top up fee's come into force....

[Phang]

Originally Posted by zakoff

i suggest you get to proper university before top up fee's come into force....

AN EXCELLENT PLAN I WILL GET RIGHT ON IT

OSHI

[arbondigo]

I lived in halls with 4 art foundation students in Loughborough. None of those 4 have stayed at Loughborough, 1 being at Sheffield (Hallam) i think, one at Liverpool, one at Cardiff, and the other i don't know. The one at sheffield is doing graphic design now like you seem to want to. They went to the school of art and design which was part of the university. I think you'll find it's recommended, if not compulsory, to do a foundation degree first with an art subject.

If you intend persuing psychology then you don't need a foundation degree and would start that as any other degree.

[KaneED]

for an art degree, unless you have done a level degree in art or some such, or even if you have, you should do a foundation course to build up tyour experience, skills and portfolio.

[Blixxard]

If you’re going to uni in 2005 you don't have to pay top up fees.
If you’re starting a gap year in 2005 then going to uni in 2006 you don't have to pay.

I would seriously recommend a art foundation degree. I have a mate who did art gcse, and doing art a-level and going onto do a foundation degree as it does bumf up your skills and portfolio for uni.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by zakoff

i suggest you get to proper university before top up fee's come into force....

Whenever anyone mentions top-up fees, it's usually fairly clear if they're going by what they actually do, or the propoganda put out by NUS and the like.

What is YOUR problem with TUF?

[LHC]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What is YOUR problem with TUF?

And how do you propose he gets into university before top up fees come into force?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by LHC

And how do you propose he gets into university before top up fees come into force?

What, exactly, is wrong with top-up fees per se? Furthermore, where did I suggest that getting into university before TUF was essential? Surely, I implied the opposite?

[Phang]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What, exactly, is wrong with top-up fees per se? Furthermore, where did I suggest that getting into university before TUF was essential? Surely, I implied the opposite?

i think the point was that you don't just say 'oh, screw Year 13, i'll go to uni instead'.

and TUFs were conceptually great and practically terrifying when they were first proposed. When all the qualifiers (the 9% of earnings over 15k, the 25 year clause, and so on) were introduced i felt able to support them, even if i am going to be hit with them.

[LHC]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

What, exactly, is wrong with top-up fees per se? Furthermore, where did I suggest that getting into university before TUF was essential? Surely, I implied the opposite?

I don't know enough about top up fees to comment. I was aiming my question at Zakoff, adding to your point.

edit: Although from what I've heard I don't see a major problem with these fees. I'm not sure why people say "it's unfair on parents" or "unfair on the poor" given neither the poor nor the parents will be paying the fees.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Sorry, misunderstood.

To be honest, most people are opposed to it because they're mistaking student debt (the kind that sits there for years and years and years and takes a small amount of your salary if you can afford it) with real debt (the kind that comes round and breaks your legs if you don't pay)

[zakoff]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Whenever anyone mentions top-up fees, it's usually fairly clear if they're going by what they actually do, or the propoganda put out by NUS and the like.

What is YOUR problem with TUF?

1) Its going to increase debt for students. This is not propaganda talking, the government admits that many students will be paying a lot more for university. I don't disagree with the idea of paying once you leave university, however i don't believe this will stop many poorer students being put off by the masive debts they are going to create.

2) The government basis a lot on the fact that Graduates earn more money that people who gain a skill etc after they leave university. This is totally untrue, there is a large shortfall of graduate jobs at the moment. People who don't enter graduate jobs can enter normal jobs and not have to pay back their loan due to not earning enough money. However, this still gives the graduate problems when they eventually earn over the amount or they want to get a mortgage etc. It is just not a great idea to have so much debt. Even though its not 'real' debt and only goes up with inflation, it still reflects badly on your ability to pay for things. The cut off point for when you pay and don't pay is also fundamentally unfair and not based on any individual circumstance. For instance, living in an expensive area or having 3kids to feed.

3) This can cause problems for certain institutions. Oxford and Cambridge will obviously get a high amount of money from this. However, lower end universities will not and it will probably have detrimental effects of the commercial well being of some unis.

4) The Government made an election pledge, they should stick to those pledges. I know politicians are basically just liars, it doesn't mean i am happy when they break pledges.

5) I support the Lib dem proposals to abolish fee's etc completely and get funding from increased taxes of the rich. This is CLEARLY a good idea as the reason why services etc are so low is because increase in tax is a political killer. Labour have tried to get round the problem by borrowing excessively and using a massively unfair council tax system. This is, as i say, Unfair and should be stopped.

6) My point doesn't really say anything about 'NUS or the like'! It is quite clear that if someone has the choice of going to university BEFORE top up fee's or AFTER, it is better to go BEFORE. This is because it will save them money. I didn't actually mean it in any political or anti-Tuf way, even though i clearly am anti-TUF.


I must agree though that the NUS is a corrupt and badly run institution and their misleading expressions on what the Top up fees will entail are confusing a lot of people. I'm not against the principle of paying 'after' you study, that is indeed a good idea under the current system. I am against the system of fee's in the first place and the proposed Labour plans make them worse for institutions and students in my opinion. I do think its a contentious issue and i have had a mixed feeling about it. I believe the rich students should be milked for every penny to subsidise the poorer students, much like the system in America which works quite well. For example Bush (being Stupid) pays alot of money to go to uni and his money helps 20 intellegent kids go there....

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

To be honest, most people are opposed to it because they're mistaking student debt (the kind that sits there for years and years and years and takes a small amount of your salary if you can afford it) with real debt (the kind that comes round and breaks your legs if you don't pay)

This is true, although student debt is still annoying. Fortunately I don't seem to have to pay it, but the measurement of "a small amount of your salary if you can afford it" is fairly broken. It only pays attention to your gross income and if you have other debts, or high rents to pay then the "small amount" taken from your salary is actually fairly substantial (in proportion to your disposable income). Most of my friends are currently paying back their (non-top up) student loans and the amounts per month are not insignificant.

I'd also imagine increase student debt will have three side effects, none of which are particularly desirable (from a general public-good point of view)
1. Decrease the amount being saved by younger people (which apparently is already low enough)
2. Make it harder for people on medium incomes (who have graduated) to buy their first home (already a problem).
3. Might marginally reduce the birth-rate even lower among graduates. Which means that (even more so) the people having children will be the poorer, less educated members of society. This isn't necessarily a problem but as we're moving away from redistributive tax systems generally I presume it'll have hilarious consequences in the long term.

There will probably be other issues like the type of work undertaken by graduates, but I'm not sure they are as serious.

[Androme]

According to the latest results of Mori's annual student debt survey, carried out on behalf of Unite, the student accommodation group, the average debt for a final-year unviersity student has increased by more than 70% over the past 5 years to almost £8,000, with levels expected to double again over the next few years.

Following the intro of the top-up fees the average UK student graduated with £4,600 of debt 5 years ago. This figure is now more than £7,800.

Students are already anticipating a further 25% rise in their debts over the next year, with most expecting to graduate with debts of about £10,000. Debt is expected to double as the 3 year-course fees go from £3,000 to £9,000. The survey reveals that arts students end up with about 5 % more debt than science and engineering students.

Oxford is proposing to cut back on British students in favour of overseas undergraduates in a bit to increase its funding. It plans to reduce the no. of places available to young Brits by 1600 to make way for more foreign students who pay full fees up to £20,000 a year. NUS said students shouldn't be seen as "pound signs".

[queball]

You can just link to the story, if you must quote statistics.

[Androme]

Actually it's pasted directly word-toword from the navigator magazine.

[Deepflow]

even if you haven't done psychology before it doesn't mean you can't do it at uni. My degree is half sociology and i'd never touched it before and was fine, and i know a few others who have done the same.

[MrL_JaKiri]

You don't have to have done A-Level biology to do biology at Cambridge.