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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:47   #1
s|k
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I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Whilst it is true that intelligence =! knowledge, you made it explicit in your question that you were talking about general trends rather than hard and fast laws. In my experience, it is a perfectly evidenced trend that more intelligent people will tend to know more, and are more likely to be able to infer the meaning of something (such as the 2nd question) from information they already have, if they haven't been explicitly told the "answer".

Obviously there are some cases where this doesn't apply; the classic example of the idiot savante, but genetic disorders and other similar things tend to exaggerate the number of outliers (such as dwarfism or giantism when you're looking at a distribution of heights), and are in such comparatively small numbers that they can be safely ignored.
Before going into an argument let’s define what it is we’re talking about.

Quote:
Main Entry: in•tel•li•gence Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: in-te-l-jn(t)s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin intelligentia, from intelligent-, intelligens intelligent
Date: 14th century
1 a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests) b Christian Science : the basic eternal quality of divine Mind c : mental acuteness : SHREWDNESS
2 a : an intelligent entity; especially : ANGEL b : intelligent minds or mind <cosmic intelligence>
3 : the act of understanding : COMPREHENSION
4 a : INFORMATION, NEWS b : information concerning an enemy or possible enemy or an area; also : an agency engaged in obtaining such information
5 : the ability to perform computer functions
Okay here we go.

A little about my background first, I have a Bachelors degree of Arts in Anthropology from the University of Hawai’i at Hilo, which explains why I focus on culture. (Anthropology as academic science in the U.S. and the UK are very different. I’ve studied biological - of humans - and cultural evolution, post-modern ethnographies and culture change, historical and prehistoric archaeology with a focus on the south pacific and medical/biological anthropology.)

Many of my personal believes are sort of mixed together with general ideas in anthropology in that which I’m about to say.

There is no such thing as objectivity. You can’t remove the observer from the observation. Just having decided to make an observation, and the manner in which it was carried out, is already subjective.

The idea of scientists in white lab coats searching for facts about our universe is a misguided occupation in my opinion (if it’s simply done for the sake of it), and I say this because I believe that the universe while operating obviously by some patterns is inherently meaningless in itself, and it is only us humans who create any meaning whatsoever from it. A fact is something invented by us for us (westerners).

It follows then that ideas by which we necessarily judge and categorize our universe in order to simply survive (is this an apple or a rock and which can I eat for instance) are wholly our own, and mostly useful. Now, again my opinion, it’s become the case that as culture has grown more complex and people of difference have become in closer contact that ethnocentrism, a overall useful tool of humans used to preserve their culture (their culture being that mostly cognitive process that provides them with the understanding and knowledge that enables them to form social relations with others and understand their environment in such a way as to be able to survive), has been institutionalized in the last few generations. Westerners have twisted rationalization and observations about things such as physics and mathematics and applied them to humans, but not without an agenda. Ethnocentrism is the believing in the superiority of your own culture and people in my argument. Which is okay, and it is a defense which is applicable and good in many circumstances.

However, these natural tendencies of ours led to western people trying to use scientific attempts (which I already mentioned is a wholly meaningless thing in itself – it is only a concept used by westerners, though now spreading through processes of cultural diffusion, and has obviously been a productive tool also having it’s uses) to validate their own superiority (which was unquestionable). They came up with cultural stages of Savages, Barbarians, Civilized, and others to judge whole populations. They made judgments based on what kind of tools were used, what forms of social structure people had, and even what climate people lived in.
\
This is called the Comparative Method, which Franz Boaz discounted. Early anthropologist assumed that all humans around the world were evolving a long a single line of evolution, the zenith of which was the famous Englishman anthropologist sitting his in armchair drinking a cup of tea. Intelligence became a measuring tool in which you could grade your peer along an evolutionary line. The classmate sitting next to you was closer to the savage stage because he had trouble reading; you on the other hand, being an advanced learner were clearly headed in the direction of realizing a civilized mind. Anyhow you can follow this train to where I’m going next.

Intelligence is a concept that is used to judge another person’s intellectual competence, but what I really think it does is measure difference. And difference is neither good nor bad. Variation from one human to another, whether it is physical or cognitive, does not necessarily have to be good or bad, it just is.

Ethnocentrism invokes a passion about others in many when they are faced with difference. People become defensive when others don’t understand their way of life, their way of thinking, and negative feelings abound, conflict arises. I don’t believe in absolute truths, I don’t believe in ****ing anything. I don’t even know what the **** is going on. (possibly I’m having ‘experiences’ of being a ‘man’ who’s ‘typing’ about an ‘idea.’) And so I don’t believe in intelligence. It is an invention by humans.

Take a kid from the Bush in the desert and stick him in a Manchester classroom (even if we downloaded the English language into their brain Matrix style), will he/she perform well? Of course not. How about I stick a Manchester child in the Bush, will she or he have ‘common sense’ in those cases? Will this child be taunted by its other Bush peers because he or she can’t tell the difference between thousands of different plant types out there in their environment?

These are extremes, but what it takes a deep, meaningful look within ourselves, at why we feel about things the way we do, why we understand things as we do to recognize that judgments we make about other people are inescapably subjective and therefore, not even in-line with the ideal of science which is already a bunch of horseshit in itself. I’m a post modernist, hear me roar.

Enough about intelligence.

What the **** do I care about Venezuela. If it comes up, I know where to find the information, in an Atlas, an encyclopedia, by googling, by reading books about it, by going there. I don’t need to know every single ‘fact’ there is to know, knowing how to get that information as needed is more practical then trying to memorize every goddamned piece of knowledge out there. And so I don’t care if I didn’t know its location precisely, because I take no stock in that.

And I don’t like those comics for two reasons:

1)I never heard of them and are probably in the dark corner of the comic book store where all the big kids with chains and black leather jackets hang out.
2) I just said that to get you riled up, hence the “;|” at the end.
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Last edited by s|k; 10 Apr 2005 at 19:49.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:51   #2
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Idiot.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:54   #3
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I demand a summary!
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:56   #4
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I'm pretty sure he claimed that the scientific method is bullshit in the first part of it, the rest I'm having difficulty reconciling with, you know, sense.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:57   #5
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I'm really sorry s|k (well, not really sorry, but I feel kind of bad as you obviously put effort into this) but I couldn't be bothered to read that.

In future, you need to use double line breaks between paragraphs, and have more paragraphs. It makes reading easier on the eye, and it's more likely people will look through it.

As such:
tl;dr
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 18:59   #6
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

imbecile.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:00   #7
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Idiot.
A response like this is just bullshit. I assume you're joking JBG, but others wont. You people have judged me to be a complete moron. I spend all this time speaking about something which I care about only to be treated to villification and slander. I shared something, and I put effort into it, and I'm not going to do it again. You people don't deserve my attention. As bright as some of you are it makes this really a shame. I'm seriously hurt.

**** you.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:01   #8
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Thanks to this thread I have learned that s|k is actually from some random bush tribe in Africa. I am grateful for the opportunity to learn.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:02   #9
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
A response like this is just bullshit. I assume you're joking JBG, but others wont. You people have judged me to be a complete moron. I spend all this time speaking about something which I care about only to be treated to villification and slander. I shared something, and I put effort into it, and I'm not going to do it again. You people don't deserve my attention. As bright as some of you are it makes this really a shame. I'm seriously hurt.

**** you.
Dude it's a one-liner, get over yourself.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:07   #10
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

OK, I read it, and I agree with JBG.

The bushboy/Manchester kid example, a clear example of differences in KNOWLEDGE. Their taught knowledge ofcourse differs too much for any of them to adapt to the extreme situations.

It's hard to set intelligence and knowledge apart, because the one will apply the second to achieve somesort of result. You need the first to use the second, and you need the second for the first to have any meaning. Whether that be survival or paying the next bill is irrelevant.
I rather compare intelligence with problem-solving capabilities. And to truely compare two individuals on an intelligence level, both individuals need to have the exact same knowledge.

Oh well...
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:16   #11
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I believe some people's brains work more, thus more connection within the brain are made -so are seen as more intelligent, due to an increase in hormonal activity -which causes the brain to work more.

Einstein's brain was actually different to the 'normal' brain (although I have to point out I don't believe that only einstein's brain was different -he's just a good example) due to the amount of thinking he did which altered the make-up of his brain.

Basically I believe it all comes down to hormonal activity. Although sometimes hormonal activity can force a brain to develop in a manner that is not seen as 'intelligent' by today's perceptions.

The brain is an organ, and it changes (although more so in childhood as it's more flexible). For example it is widely accepted once you learn your first foreign language subcequent ones become easier to learn. I believe this is because the linguistic part of your brain has developed.

I really want to know why hormonal activity differs from one person to the next....

So, yes, I do believe in intelligence.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:19   #12
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

If intelligence was just a word for the ability to perform computer functions, would you still say you didn't believe in it?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:21   #13
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
If intelligence was just a word for the ability to perform computer functions, would you still say you didn't believe in it?
And my friends laughed at me when I told them that 11 equals 3.
Clearly my intelligence is misunderstood.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:34   #14
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
And my friends laughed at me when I told them that 11 equals 3.
Clearly my intelligence is misunderstood.
Don't worry, I often tell the OCT31 = DEC25 joke to my mates and noone gets that and just gives me blank looks like I'm a geek
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:40   #15
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I believe in stupiditiy.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:43   #16
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by Structural Integrity
And my friends laughed at me when I told them that 11 equals 3.
Clearly my intelligence is misunderstood.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:45   #17
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I believe in stupiditiy.
Was that deliberately posted after a post by me?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:45   #18
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Seriously, I'd like to read it, but without more linebreaks my eyes would probably explode or something..

Please?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:47   #19
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by hyfe
Seriously, I'd like to read it, but without more linebreaks my eyes would probably explode or something..

Please?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:53   #20
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And difference is neither good nor bad.
Oh hey

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I don't see anything that's per se better about people with "higher intelligence", other than "better" performance at various kinds of tests. Yes, I would prefer it if people had a higher level of intellect [the rest is irrelevent]
Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And so I don’t believe in intelligence. It is an invention by humans. Take a kid from the Bush in the desert and stick him in a Manchester classroom (even if we downloaded the English language into their brain Matrix style), will he/she perform well? Of course not. How about I stick a Manchester child in the Bush, will she or he have ‘common sense’ in those cases?
That's not related to the argument in any way. Take two bush children and put them in Manchester, and they will perform differently. The one that adapts faster can, on a very simple level, be said to be "more intelligent".

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
not even in-line with the ideal of science which is already a bunch of horseshit in itself.
Empiricism appears to be doing pretty well for itself duder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
1)I never heard of them and are probably in the dark corner of the comic book store where all the big kids with chains and black leather jackets hang out.
Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison and Brian Michael Bendis are by far the best known and well respected comic book authors in the world today. Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns (in particular) are two immensely famous works that have been credited with reinventing the comic as we know it from the rut it was in at the start of the 1980's. From Hell, LxG, V For Vendetta, Hellboy and Sin City have all been made into (or are being made into) "big" Hollywood films (Sin City is currently sitting in the top 100 of the IMDB rankings, although for the most part they've been rather poor). Sandman is a work of immense depth in the general style of that obscure author Neil Gaiman, and Y - The Last Man and Powers (the only two that I meantioned that are being published month to month) are each selling a respectible 30,000 copies per issue, and gaining a lot of critical acclaim. Planetary, the other one that's currently continuing, is quarterly, and is the best selling comic on the Wildstorm imprint.

In particular, Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns are some of the most famous books out there, and it suprises me that someone who knows anything about comics hasn't heard of them.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 19:58   #21
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
I believe some people's brains work more, thus more connection within the brain are made -so are seen as more intelligent, due to an increase in hormonal activity -which causes the brain to work more.

Einstein's brain was actually different to the 'normal' brain (although I have to point out I don't believe that only einstein's brain was different -he's just a good example) due to the amount of thinking he did which altered the make-up of his brain.

Basically I believe it all comes down to hormonal activity. Although sometimes hormonal activity can force a brain to develop in a manner that is not seen as 'intelligent' by today's perceptions.

The brain is an organ, and it changes (although more so in childhood as it's more flexible). For example it is widely accepted once you learn your first foreign language subcequent ones become easier to learn. I believe this is because the linguistic part of your brain has developed.

I really want to know why hormonal activity differs from one person to the next....

So, yes, I do believe in intelligence.
People have believed that blood and 'bile' affected the tempers (sanguine, melancholy, choleric, etc), and bleeding would 'heal'. They saw some red fluids in a human and created all sorts of explanations and correlations that made sense to them, but don't to us. Were they wrong? People in other parts in the world believe in a hot and cold dichotomy, where difference is evaluated by temperature. Illnesses are seen as needing either a hot or cold remedy. Even health is subjective, as is disability. Who's to say what is healthy? In parts of Africa young boys pee red because of blood in their urine, this has to do with toxic substances in their environment, but they think this normal. When you say someone is disabled, you're projecting a point of view on them. Perhaps they don't see themselves disabled, why should they be forced to think themselves as having a bad life because they are missing an arm, or a blind or confined to a chair? It is not bad or good, it is simply different. No doubt there a different states of conciousnesses, influenced by a variety of factors, but to label it as intelligence and then create an evaluation of overall fitnesses is not justified, in my opinion.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:05   #22
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by s|k
k
tnx.

You seem to be quite an extreme culture-relativist though.

When I studied social anthropology here in Norway that movement had pretty much disappeared, and even Thomas Hylland / Brøgger (two 'famous' norwegian anthropologists) had opinions that seemed sane to me.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:09   #23
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
People have believed that blood and 'bile' affected the tempers (sanguine, melancholy, choleric, etc), and bleeding would 'heal'. They saw some red fluids in a human and created all sorts of explanations and correlations that made sense to them, but don't to us. Were they wrong? People in other parts in the world believe in a hot and cold dichotomy, where difference is evaluated by temperature. Illnesses are seen as needing either a hot or cold remedy. Even health is subjective, as is disability. Who's to say what is healthy? In parts of Africa young boys pee red because of blood in their urine, this has to do with toxic substances in their environment, but they think this normal. When you say someone is disabled, you're projecting a point of view on them. Perhaps they don't see themselves disabled, why should they be forced to think themselves as having a bad life because they are missing an arm, or a blind or confined to a chair? It is not bad or good, it is simply different. No doubt there a different state of conciousnesses, influenced by a variety of factors, but to lable it as intelligence and then create an evaluation of overall fitnesses is not justified, in my opinion.
If something decreases the quality or length of your life (reduces the number of things you can do and the time you have to do them in) then it's unhealthy. The better medicine is that which eliminates those things which decrease the quality or length of your life. Saying that someone is disabled is just saying that they're lacking something which other people have. It's not drawing a judgement on their character or their worth to mankind, it's just a convenient description. Nobody's saying you have to want to be intelligent but denying the existence of intelligence is fairly silly (unless you're drastically redefining it so it actually doesn't exist, which of course rather defeats the point of arguing about it). Oh the language games we play.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:14   #24
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Oh hey





That's not related to the argument in any way. Take two bush children and put them in Manchester, and they will perform differently. The one that adapts faster can, on a very simple level, be said to be "more intelligent".
So it's a measure of speed then for you? Culture shapes our understanding, and people from different cultures will see the universe differently. The entire paradigm through which everything is observed, down to the very words we use and concepts we hold dear are different from culture to culture. A switch as I describe would highlight that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Empiricism appears to be doing pretty well for itself duder.
Right because overpopulation, a rate of (approx) 100,000 calories consumption per capita per day, environmental tranformation including top soil erosion, marine resources overfished, global climate transformation, massive introduction of toxins into the environment, cultural conflicts on massive scales, depedence on non-renewable energy is 'doing well'.

Hunter Gatherers survived for hundreds of thousands of years in a sustainable relationship with their environment. Our western industrializated ways are but a 150 years old, you think it will last as long? Yeah, go science.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison and Brian Michael Bendis are by far the best known and well respected comic book authors in the world today. Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns (in particular) are two immensely famous works that have been credited with reinventing the comic as we know it from the rut it was in at the start of the 1980's. From Hell, LxG, V For Vendetta, Hellboy and Sin City have all been made into (or are being made into) "big" Hollywood films (Sin City is currently sitting in the top 100 of the IMDB rankings, although for the most part they've been rather poor). Sandman is a work of immense depth in the general style of that obscure author Neil Gaiman, and Y - The Last Man and Powers (the only two that I meantioned that are being published month to month) are each selling a respectible 30,000 copies per issue, and gaining a lot of critical acclaim. Planetary, the other one that's currently continuing, is quarterly, and is the best selling comic on the Wildstorm imprint.




In particular, Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns are some of the most famous books out there, and it suprises me that someone who knows anything about comics hasn't heard of them.
Cool, I'll check it out. Although I checked out the Sin City one, and it didn't appeal to me. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen bothers me because of it's twisting of books and characters I hold very dear.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:14   #25
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Also, you quoted my post which assumes the existance of intelligence, rather than the one that was arguing for the existance of intelligence.

And this post made Giles cry which is sad because he's a nice chap.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:17   #26
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
So it's a measure of speed then for you? Culture shapes our understanding, and people from different cultures will see the universe differently. The entire paradigm through which everything is observed, down to the very words we use and concepts we hold dear are different from culture to culture. A switch as I describe would highlight that.
Quote:
the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
It's a "measure of speed" by the dictionary definition too. (Bear in mind that that definition is dealing with intelligence vs lack of intelligence, rather than an analogue thing, but the principle's the same)

I don't care if different cultures are better at different things (asians are stereotypically excellent at mathematics, for example) but that doesn't matter when we're looking at comparisons between individuals. Saying that everyone in a given culture has the same potential ability is just plain wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Right because overpopulation, a rate of (approx) 100,000 calories consumption per capita per day, environmental tranformation including top soil erosion, marine resources overfished, global climate transformation, massive introduction of toxins into the environment, cultural conflicts on massive scales, depedence on non-renewable energy is 'doing well'.

Hunter Gatherers survived for hundreds of thousands of years in a sustainable relationship with their environment. Our western industrializated ways are but a 150 years old, you think it will last as long? Yeah, go science.
This post made me cry as well. Please stop talking about science, you're not doing very well.

[edit]

To expand:

What you're saying is nothing to do with the process of empiricism. The process of empiricism, and by extension science, is about gathering knowledge, not its uses. Dropping the atom bomb on hiroshima wasn't science, but creating the possibility for one was. And its success is measured by the fact that it was successful in its aims.

Science has blatently expanded the sphere of human knowledge. Science has blatently improved quality of life across the globe. The fact that hunter-gatherers survived for thousands of years is neither here nor there. Life in lower forms survived for millions of years, but I'd prefer to be an individual in a modern society than an amoeba any day.

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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:23   #27
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If something decreases the quality or length of your life (reduces the number of things you can do and the time you have to do them in) then it's unhealthy. The better medicine is that which eliminates those things which decrease the quality or length of your life. Saying that someone is disabled is just saying that they're lacking something which other people have. It's not drawing a judgement on their character or their worth to mankind, it's just a convenient description. Nobody's saying you have to want to be intelligent but denying the existence of intelligence is fairly silly (unless you're drastically redefining it so it actually doesn't exist, which of course rather defeats the point of arguing about it). Oh the language games we play.
I'm going to quote Peter Sedgwick:

Quote:
What, are there no diseases in nature? Are there no infectious and contagious bacili? Are there not definite and objective lesions in the celluar structures of the human body? Are there not fractures of bones, the fatal ruptures of tissues, the malignant multiplications of tumourus growths? Are not these, surely, events of nature? Yet these, as natural events, do not-prior to the human social meanings we attach to them-constitue illnesses, sicknesses, or diseases. The fracture of a septuagenarian's femur has, within the world of nature, no more significance than the snapping of an autum leaf from its twig: and the invasion of a human organism by cholera-germs has no more the stamp of illness" than does the souring of milk by other forms of bacteria.
Disease is defined subjectively, as is health.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:25   #28
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
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a rate of (approx) 100,000 calories consumption per capita per day
This is so far off it's staggering. The per capita calorie consumption per day in the USA is ~3800. Did you literally pluck that number out of your ass?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:28   #29
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's a "measure of speed" by the dictionary definition too. (Bear in mind that that definition is dealing with intelligence vs lack of intelligence, rather than an analogue thing, but the principle's the same)

I don't care if different cultures are better at different things (asians are stereotypically excellent at mathematics, for example) but that doesn't matter when we're looking at comparisons between individuals. Saying that everyone in a given culture has the same potential ability is just plain wrong.



This post made me cry as well. Please stop talking about science, you're not doing very well.

[edit]

To expand:

What you're saying is nothing to do with the process of empiricism. The process of empiricism, and by extension science, is about gathering knowledge, not its uses. Dropping the atom bomb on hiroshima wasn't science, but creating the possibility for one was. And its success is measured by the fact that it was successful in its aims.

Science has blatently expanded the sphere of human knowledge. Science has blatently improved quality of life across the globe. The fact that hunter-gatherers survived for thousands of years is neither here nor there. Life in lower forms survived for millions of years, but I'd prefer to be an individual in a modern society to an amoeba any day.
You'd prefer to [not] be an amoeba, does that make being an amoeba bad? Are you making a personal judgement? Based on fundamental truths put forth by god or by what? Has science improved the quality of life for humans? Really? Have you gone outside of your neighborhood and taken a look at how 90% of the world lives? The process of empiricism has led to a lot of esoteric nonesense, the application of which has led to a shitty world. And yes my judgement is subjective. And your taunts and insults are base and easy responses that are meaningless and pathetic.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:29   #30
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
When you say someone is disabled, you're projecting a point of view on them. Perhaps they don't see themselves disabled, why should they be forced to think themselves as having a bad life because they are missing an arm, or a blind or confined to a chair?
My father's disabled, self-admittedly so, and he doesn't think he's having a bad life. I don't think being disabled means having a bad life. Nobody I know thinks being disabiled means having a bad life.

Where the hell do you get this guff? The aether?
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:30   #31
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

And you wonder why you have social problems? :|
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:30   #32
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
My father's disabled, self-admittedly so, and he doesn't think he's having a bad life. I don't think being disabled means having a bad life. Nobody I know thinks being disabiled means having a bad life.

Where the hell do you get this guff? The aether?
I'm not speaking to you on this one, as you have already mentioned that you are not positively or negatively evaluating difference. And are you so shortsighted to not see other people see disabled people as weak and living a bad life? Is really everyone around you so empathetic? I want to move to your neighborhood.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:34   #33
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And are you so shortsighted to not see other people see disabled people as weak and living a bad life?
sympathy and pity are not the same as scorn you stupid stupid wanker
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:34   #34
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

My sensible post in this thread is ignored again, probably because I was right... it always happens like that. I'm beginning to think it's because I'm the most intelligent of you all.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:35   #35
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I'm going to quote Peter Sedgwick:



Disease is defined subjectively, as is health.
Yes it is. I was going to make my comment about subjectivism but wasn't bothered. To elaborate as it's now required


Of course disease is defined subjectively. However subjectivism isn't this random thing which means you can say anything. When you're discussing or defining something subjectively it means you're doing it within a certain framework as opposed to in relation to the entire universe. Obviously nothing's bad "objectively" as bad is a moral judgement which by necessity must operate within the framework of morality. We all have some basic principles for our framework. Personally I enjoy life and I dislike when my opportunity to live my life as I want to is diminished. I'm not going to go out and force other people to become "healthy" either. I suppose the thing is that I agree with the statement that "intelligent beings are infinitely more worthwhile than anything else".
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:36   #36
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
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sympathy and pity are not the same as scorn you stupid stupid wanker
You insult, you troll, you are incapable of meeting other people half way. Your arguments are based on partial comprehension and mental complaisance. This will be my last post to you. I will ignore you from here on out.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:39   #37
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You'd prefer to not be an amoeba, does that make being an amoeba bad?
Given that amoebae have no concept of value, I'd say yes. Fair play to the amoebae, but I prefer it where I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Are you making a personal judgement? Based on fundamental thruths put forth by god or by what?
I'm making a personal judgement, but one that follows perfectly logically from my beliefs, both moral and otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Has science improved the quality of life for humans?
Yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Really? Have you gone outside of your neighborhood and taken a look at how 90% of the world lives?
Well, I know that, historically, the peoples of the world generally had a life span about 1/3 of what we have, lived under constant danger of a plague wiping out most of the population of the known world, worked for more of their lives, had less of a say in what they did with their lives, had less potential means of doing "stuff", and so on. Yeah, it's bad in some countries. But it's better in, say, Cambridge, and given that the whole world had the "bad" conditions before the enlightenment, I'd have to say that yeah, the world is better now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
The process of empiricism has led to a lot of esoteric nonesense, the application of which has led to a shitty world.
That esoteric nonsense is the reason that people live past 30. That esoteric nonsense is the reason that you can communicate with me now. That esoteric nonsense is the reason that my father survived his childhood, that my mother survived childbirth, that I have survived relatively unscathed through childhood diseases and infections that have been known to create serious lasting damage if left untreated. That esoteric nonsense is the reason that smallpox is eradicated.

Why are you putting forward contradictory positions between absolute relativism between cultures, knowledge and the like and yet flat out criticise something which an enormous number of people have benefitted or "believed" in? Above the board in P0 in durham school is the message "The pursuit of knowledge is its own reward." I agree with that. Why are you dismissing this out of hand?

And yes my judgement is subjective. And your taunts and insults are base and easy responses that are meaningless and pathetic.[/quote]
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:41   #38
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And are you so shortsighted to not see other people see disabled people as weak and living a bad life?
I know many people who feel that disabled people have a lower quality of life by being disabled, simply because they don't have the choice in the matter. I don't know anyone who thinks that disabled people automatically lead bad lives, and should be put out of their misery or something like that. I can decide to roll around in a wheelchair all the time, people who can't walk can't do the things I can do. Choice is pretty axiomically good.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:42   #39
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yes it is. I was going to make my comment about subjectivism but wasn't bothered. To elaborate as it's now required


Of course disease is defined subjectively. However subjectivism isn't this random thing which means you can say anything. When you're discussing or defining something subjectively it means you're doing it within a certain framework as opposed to in relation to the entire universe. Obviously nothing's bad "objectively" as bad is a moral judgement which by necessity must operate within the framework of morality. We all have some basic principles for our framework. Personally I enjoy life and I dislike when my opportunity to live my life as I want to is diminished. I'm not going to go out and force other people to become "healthy" either. I suppose the thing is that I agree with the statement that "intelligent beings are infinitely more worthwhile than anything else".
It isn't random, but it's personal. Recognizing that frameworks through which we interpret the world are different for all of us should lead us to not let our passions dwell too long with our judgments. Which seems to be what happens a lot on gd.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:49   #40
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You insult, you troll, you are incapable of meeting other people half way. Your arguments are based on partial comprehension and mental complaisance. This will be my last post to you. I will ignore you from here on out.
that's wonderful darling. you still spout utter, utter, unsubstantiated shite with something bizarrely similar to righteous indignation, and you're still an idiot.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 20:58   #41
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri



Well, I know that, historically, the peoples of the world generally had a life span about 1/3 of what we have, lived under constant danger of a plague wiping out most of the population of the known world, worked for more of their lives, had less of a say in what they did with their lives, had less potential means of doing "stuff", and so on. Yeah, it's bad in some countries. But it's better in, say, Cambridge, and given that the whole world had the "bad" conditions before the enlightenment, I'd have to say that yeah, the world is better now.
This is wrong. Small groups of people (who have predominated the world for most of human history up until very recently) live egaltarian lives, with no leadership. They are not told what to do, by anyone. These small tribes barely have elders, to whom they may or may not listen to. Because of their small populations, disease does not spread as you suggest. It is in agricultural socities where a surplus of resources has lead to large populations which led to social stratification and a lot of the ills you mention. And yes, I think agriculture is the devil of all inventions. Satan's spawn. Evil. Unholy. The ruin of humanity. The ability to manipulate our environment has led to personal misery. Being an ameoba would be ace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Why are you putting forward contradictory positions between absolute relativism between cultures, knowledge and the like and yet flat out criticise something which an enormous number of people have benefitted or "believed" in? Above the board in P0 in durham school is the message "The pursuit of knowledge is its own reward." I agree with that. Why are you dismissing this out of hand?
The pursuit of knowledge leads to esoteric knowledge which becomes the justification for viewing oneself different from one who does not obtain esoteric knowledge. I think that if you want to understand the universe through (what I think is vile) new-age literature and ideas you may feel the same spiritual? rewards that you obtain from a traditional education if you were so inclined to believe that hogwash. I believe, just me, that understanding is nothing. It is stored energy in your brain, your amygdala has given it some emotional hormonal priority and you categorize it etc etc etc, (I don't know much about physiology as you can see), and it amounts to what? Nothing. Maybe it amounts to you getting a degree and having a job and providing for a family which continues your DNA. I love the pursuit of knoweldge, and I've utilized what I've learned in my shoddy arguments. I don't know, I still have some more reading to do on this.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:08   #42
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
This is wrong. Small groups of people (who have predominated the world for most of human history up until very recently) live egaltarian lives, with no leadership. They are not told what to do, by anyone.
Having limited choice doesn't solely come from having someone telling you what to do. For example, if I was living in the same society as someone exactly the same as me except for the ability to fly, I'd prefer to be him because he has the option to do something that I can't. I can live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle in the Forest of Dean if I like, but I don't like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Because of their small populations, disease does not spread as you suggest. It is in agricultural socities where a surplus of resources has lead to large populations which led to social stratification and a lot of the ills you mention.
Only the "universal death" one is really a result of large scale society. I don't think early man had much of a concept of leisure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
And yes, I think agriculture is the devil of all inventions. Satan's spawn. Evil. Unholy. The ruin of humanity. The ability to manipulate our environment has led to personal misery. Being an ameoba would be ace.
Why exactly does agriculture lead to the ability to manipulate environments? Amoebae manipulate their environments, and when in isolation eventually kill themselves through an overabundance of waste products or through eating an unsustainable level of food.

Man or animal "living in harmony with the environment" is an utter myth. Life expands to capacity, and, once it reaches capacity, dies back. This is true of all populations of living things known to man except one : man. Man can manipulate his environment, but he can also choose to not manipulate his environment. And that choice is what makes us "better" than amoebas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
The pursuit of knowledge leads to esoteric knowledge which becomes the justification for viewing oneself different from one who does not obtain esoteric knowledge.
I see myself as different from people who don't know things about science, yes. I see myself as different from people who aren't male and 2 meters tall as well. I don't see why that makes "being tall" or "being male" anything bad though. Discrimination isn't a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I think that if you want to understand the universe through (what I think is vile) new-age literature and ideas you may feel the same spiritual? rewards that you obtain from a traditional education if you were so inclined to believe that hogwash.
You may do, but you don't actually get anywhere. Science has results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It is stored energy in your brain, your amygdala has given it some emotional hormonal priority and you categorize it etc etc etc, (I don't know much about physiology as you can see), and it amounts to what? Nothing.
If I die, then the specific information stored in my brain is gone, yes. But I don't see what that has to do with anything.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:14   #43
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

intelligence is an artificial medium of measurement created by the technologies of power.

we should free ourselves from these constraints.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:14   #44
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by lokken
intelligence is an artificial medium of measurement created by the technologies of power.

we should free ourselves from these constraints.
Lobotomies for all!
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:16   #45
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It isn't random, but it's personal. Recognizing that frameworks through which we interpret the world are different for all of us should lead us to not let our passions dwell too long with our judgments. Which seems to be what happens a lot on gd.
I'm well into freedom of choice dude. However we always have to make certain judgements or else we might as well be amoebae. And frankly I don't believe you when you say you'd prefer to be an amoeba.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:16   #46
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Lobotomies for all!
Me first, please.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:18   #47
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

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Originally Posted by Flavius
page 2
u r rong
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:22   #48
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Man or animal "living in harmony with the environment" is an utter myth.
Beating the strawman are we? ;\

To be honest, in this discussion I've learned three things.

1)That you don't evaluate negatively difference, and that was really my biggest beef which has now been negated. You can believe in intelligence if you want that's fine. I wont.
2)That you and JBG and others are great people to have a conversation with because you force me to think and I even learn things.
3)That you and JBG and others are shit to have conversation with because you deal in petty insults and are vain as ****.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:27   #49
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

I don't believe in s|k and here's why

It is not at all certain that, that is to say, metaphysics (and I assert, on the other hand, that this is true) is just as necessary as the architectonic of natural reason. Our ideas have lying before them the thing in itself. As is evident upon close examination, it must not be supposed that, on the contrary, metaphysics is a representation of the transcendental aesthetic. What we have alone been able to show is that human reason can be treated like necessity. Our a priori knowledge, in natural theology, occupies part of the sphere of metaphysics concerning the existence of our sense perceptions in general, but the things in themselves stand in need to, so regarded, metaphysics.

Our a posteriori knowledge would thereby be made to contradict our knowledge. Since all of the objects in space and time are disjunctive, we can deduce that, in particular, the practical employment of our faculties is what first gives rise to the thing in itself. Thus, natural causes are what first give rise to, however, our understanding. As is shown in the writings of Hume, the things in themselves are the clue to the discovery of, that is to say, the Categories. As we have already seen, the things in themselves abstract from all content of knowledge; with the sole exception of the Ideal, our ampliative judgements (and the reader should be careful to observe that this is the case) would thereby be made to contradict the transcendental aesthetic. Time, in so far as this expounds the universal rules of the phenomena, is a body of demonstrated science, and all of it must be known a posteriori. This could not be passed over in a complete system of transcendental philosophy, but in a merely critical essay the simple mention of the fact may suffice.

Our a priori concepts prove the validity of, therefore, the transcendental aesthetic, since knowledge of the Categories is a posteriori. It remains a mystery why the never-ending regress in the series of empirical conditions is just as necessary as the Categories, as we have already seen. The noumena are just as necessary as the paralogisms, yet metaphysics can never furnish a true and demonstrated science, because, like the manifold, it has nothing to do with disjunctive principles. As is proven in the ontological manuals, it remains a mystery why, when thus treated as the never-ending regress in the series of empirical conditions, the things in themselves are by their very nature contradictory. Certainly, is it the case that pure logic excludes the possibility of the Categories, or is the real question whether the phenomena are the mere results of the power of the transcendental unity of apperception, a blind but indispensable function of the soul? In all theoretical sciences, the thing in itself can thereby determine in its totality the Antinomies. Since knowledge of the paralogisms is a priori, necessity can thereby determine in its totality our faculties.

As I have elsewhere shown, to avoid all misapprehension, it is necessary to explain that our judgements, in the study of the thing in itself, are just as necessary as the manifold. We can deduce that philosophy has lying before it the Categories; on the other hand, the thing in itself (and what we have alone been able to show is that this is true) is just as necessary as the noumena. Let us suppose that, in reference to ends, the discipline of pure reason, consequently, is the mere result of the power of the Transcendental Deduction, a blind but indispensable function of the soul, yet our knowledge may not contradict itself, but it is still possible that it may be in contradictions with our judgements. Whence comes philosophy, the solution of which involves the relation between the things in themselves and the paralogisms of natural reason? The Categories abstract from all content of a priori knowledge, because of our necessary ignorance of the conditions. The paralogisms of practical reason, in the study of the transcendental unity of apperception, are by their very nature contradictory, because of our necessary ignorance of the conditions.

As I have elsewhere shown, it is not at all certain that the objects in space and time (and it is obvious that this is the case) are just as necessary as the architectonic of human reason. As any dedicated reader can clearly see, it is obvious that the Transcendental Deduction can be treated like pure logic. It is obvious that our experience, for these reasons, can never furnish a true and demonstrated science, because, like the transcendental unity of apperception, it depends on analytic principles. What we have alone been able to show is that our experience exists in the things in themselves, by means of analytic unity. The employment of the phenomena (and it is obvious that this is true) constitutes the whole content for the manifold, as is proven in the ontological manuals. As we have already seen, it is obvious that, when thus treated as the noumena, the objects in space and time, in so far as this expounds the sufficient rules of our concepts, are the mere results of the power of time, a blind but indispensable function of the soul, but the noumena, still, would thereby be made to contradict our ideas.

Certainly, there can be no doubt that space, in so far as this expounds the practical rules of pure logic, has lying before it the objects in space and time. Consequently, it is obvious that the Ideal of human reason, so far as I know, occupies part of the sphere of our experience concerning the existence of the intelligible objects in space and time in general. Consequently, to avoid all misapprehension, it is necessary to explain that our sense perceptions are what first give rise to natural reason. In the case of our experience, the never-ending regress in the series of empirical conditions excludes the possibility of the paralogisms. By means of analysis, natural causes are what first give rise to the thing in itself, but our a priori knowledge, on the contrary, excludes the possibility of our sense perceptions. Therefore, primarily due to this deficiency, the likelihood of his existence scales off towards zero.

PS Flavius, that was supposed to be negative rep. Apologies.
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Unread 10 Apr 2005, 21:29   #50
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Re: I don't believe in Intelligence and here's why

Frankly I'm disgusted with all the geeks who failed to notice the mistake in the basis for the original quote...
Quote:
intelligence =! knowledge
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