R57 Stats sets

[Plaguuu]

now that you changed investor and clipper you've made a insane clipp + reaper teamup(shock that tia wants clipper better), I believe you should swap the armor of clipper and investor aswell. I dont see a reason for clipper having high armor when its firing first. While the investor deserves a buff on the armor side even if its cloaked.

[Tiamat101]

I agree if you swap init's that the clippers needs to be debuffed a bit. prolly drop armor to like 450. 400 damage isnt much atm and it fires 2nd. Remember Plaguuu its not targeting xan's so it does need have a bit of a punch behind it, as for Clipper/reaper yes it means the teamup would be effective but since fr doesn't have emp its not as effective. Since the defenders can use emp. I would also like to see viper vs reaper and viper vs clipper eff around 170% and 150's vs the rest. they may be good ships but it should be able to be stopped.

Also point of note:
Xan Cr T1's fr
Terran Bs T1's fr
Cath Cr T1's fr
Etd Bs t1's fr
Zik cr is garbage.
I would like to see atleast 2 of those changed to de because De then would be able to romp all over Cr/bs ally just because targeting at 60% sucks ass.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Also point of note:
Xan Cr T1's fr
Terran Bs T1's fr
Cath Cr T1's fr
Etd Bs t1's fr
Zik cr is garbage.
I would like to see atleast 2 of those changed to de because De then would be able to romp all over Cr/bs ally just because targeting at 60% sucks ass.

With your suggestions you're making FR beat Fi/Co, which is ok because of eta etc. However the same can't really be said for DE.
Atm the main advantage of going DE over FR is that you're better vs CR/BS because of the T2 targetting.
Still overal i'd say FR is much better already and each of the races CR/BS is better off shooting at FR first than at DE. Changing it would weaken that races CR/BS while also making FR even stronger as an option than DE.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

I've read over your post. I will take all into thought when I begin to balance. I'm going to avoid such high Eff for emp tho. Emp is pretty much where it should be in my mind. If something has to change. It's the world around it.

My A/C D/C is a base to start. They are all set with a guild. Cloack/Norm/Emp/Steal all have the same A/C D/C atm depending on inits. These will change as I balance the stats.

Tomorrow i'm going to map out every attack class. Find out what needs to be changed to make it a better option. Like your Zik Cr comment. This needs to be done before I make any more changes. I need to get a full view of each race/strat's attack power and defence power as it is now. Then changes can be made.

I've noticed you've made tycoons t2 BS ... it has the same draw backs as frig on frig did the other day (I would suggest removing this)

the reason why I've suggested high end modifications for bs/cr is Stacking effect of receiving fr/de class defence v bs/cr attacks. if you fail to beef up bs/cr then most alliances will be doing either fr,de or play fi/co with de/fr anti bs/cr

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

My bad I was reading valk at init 5. So disregard the talk about nix/clipper. But I still think that you should switch inits from clipper and investor.

I did? I saw your pm last night. I had it with a question mark on my own list. So I did it.
There probably won't be any changes today. Today I'm going to spend all my time figuring out fleets,teams, attacks, defence etc etc

Then i will have a fresh look at how badly my original plan is screwed up.

[SantaCruz]

I Just changed pegs back to DE. Really didnt like ter with 3 attack fr. They don't need it. It was making it impossible for vipers to do anything.

Another few changes. Should make Zik CR actually worth going.
First was actually with zik FR
Clipper T1 Co T2 BS ( i was having a problem with BS being so bloody strong. This makes it more balanced. Ter BS and ETD bs are tanks)
Thief T1 Fi T2 CR (Since bs was moved to a norm t2 instead of steal t1. Leaving Bucc with no T1 and t2 Cr. Moving it just made sense)
Bucc Switched back to DE > T1 BS T2 CR init 6 (fires after BS)

This does alot with the stats.
From this point i see every class as playable.

Problems I myself see right now. Zik Co, that's now the weak link. Every other race has a attack class worth playing. With it being the only Pure steal attack class. However, it's teamed with Cath Co and ETD Norm/Cloak. I believe that tho it's pure steal, it might be just fine. Zik def is pretty ace. So even if they are carried a bit by cath/etd on attacks to start. Their ships in ally def would be a great asset to an alliance.

Thoughts?

[Kaiba]

Why are Xan and etd allowed it the n?

And technically cat too as it targets 4 classes with2 ships.

[Paisley]

You really do want a frig / de round?

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Paisley

You really do want a frig / de round?

I dont think this is correct, it'd be a FR round.
DE is very different and seems ok.

I really don't understand the logic behind the Clipper change, you have FR with init advantage over fi/co, which is ok because of the worse eta, but now it even has init advantage vs BS too.

[Kaiba]

Me? Yes.

Look at these stats Paisley, the fact we have 3 pods makes fr/de naturally viable. With so many ships as well flak is very important.

I would still go terr fr or Xan fr with these stats, I would up until the point that it went down to 2 pods, it's just too playable for how I like to play

[Paisley]

I'm starting to get annoyed... that todays stats changes went a step in the wrong direction I.E. bs/cr been made less viable and forcing folk to play fr/de just to compete.

[SantaCruz]

Lol no idea why you are complaining.
lets start at the top.
Fr does not have init advantage over BS.
Guards do. Just 1 FR ship fires before kraken Which is bloody strong. Run a calc or two before you emo.
Then If you ran calcs Co Vs Fr. Co won every calc. Clipping being init 4 only balances it out.
Fi can hit FR. I have also ran those calcs.
You guys are telling me it's stupid to Think about team ups. However it's ok for you to assume there is going to be a fort gal? isn't that the exact same thing? Assuming Def, Assuming attack team? sure is.
Just run some bloody calcs. Paste them here when you find a problem with it. Don't assume.
I have run calcs. If you have a calc that proves what i myself have learned wrong. I want to see it so i can correct the problem. Right now, there is no reason to change anything or ASSUME we took a step back.

[SantaCruz]

Also FR/DE is hit by 4 classes. Fi/Co/CR/Bs is hit by 3. Think about these things plz. Fr can't fire last everytime cause we want people playing it.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Why are Xan and etd allowed it the n?

And technically cat too as it targets 4 classes with2 ships.

Cause both fleets need it to balance. It's not a problem. It's ter A/C that made 3 a silly idea. Think about these things dude. Not every race has to
mirror another. "it's not fair xan has 3 attack class and ter dont" means nothing to me. Fair isn't balance.

[SantaCruz]

I spent hours today going over attack classes vs def. I did this before i made any changes and again after. The stats are better like this. If you spent time looking into it. I know you will agree.

At this point, I have no idea what attack class i would go. Each one is appealing. I'm not making that up. Right now we got kai that already wants to go ter. Trying to tell me that it needs to change. Ofc you want it to change. In your mind it would be the best race. Cause you want to go it before stats are even finish.

[SantaCruz]

At this moment i have just tweak Ter/Xan/Zik D/C. I'm having lunch, then i'm doing ETD D/C
Then I will balance A/C on all races. Finish Cath D/C. Then relook at E/R

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

I spent hours today going over attack classes vs def. I did this before i made any changes and again after. The stats are better like this. If you spent time looking into it. I know you will agree.

At this point, I have no idea what attack class i would go. Each one is appealing. I'm not making that up. Right now we got kai that already wants to go ter. Trying to tell me that it needs to change. Ofc you want it to change. In your mind it would be the best race. Cause you want to go it before stats are even finish.

This is the problem for you, or any statsmaker actively playing the game.
You can keep changing the races as you like, allready decided Your Choice, and right before the stats are finalized you can do the last change that will make Your Choice the best choice or n the best combo.
Its Tiamats for a few rounds back all over again

[M0RPH3US]

While tweaking you killed the clipper
it now targets CR as T1

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

This is the problem for you, or any statsmaker actively playing the game.
You can keep changing the races as you like, allready decided Your Choice, and right before the stats are finalized you can do the last change that will make Your Choice the best choice or n the best combo.
Its Tiamats for a few rounds back all over again

WTF are you talking about? i just said i don't do that. I was explain how i'm not playing favorites. As always BB trolls. It was kai that was doing it.

I don't care which race is stronger. I'm doing stats for a fair, balanced round. If you actually knew me, you wouldn't bother trolling.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US

While tweaking you killed the clipper
it now targets CR as T1

I probably forgot to change it back... I also change T2 to T1 to check D/C on t2's. Make sure i didn't miss another ships A/C. They stand out more... lol

[SantaCruz]

Ok I'm pretty sure I got A/C, D/C and E/R drafted in.
So I guess this is offically Draft two done.

So lets try and find problems. To strong of a race (with calcs) to weak (with calcs). Everything we change now has to be supported by proof... Idea's for T2's or Init switchs. T1 and T2 switch.

[Papadoc]

I think the ranger might need to be more potent for DE to be viable. Seems the cath -etd duo is gonna need it to be

[SantaCruz]

List of suggestions so far from people
Ranger D/C raise (400 maybe with A/C drop to 530)
Clipper A/C drop (was thinking 480)
Rogue Targeting switch T1 FR T2 DE + Mara Drops T2 (could even be Rogue T1 de t2 fr) More of a edge for CR roiding FR gals.
Investor A/C raise (to 370 D/C remains high)

[Kaiba]

I would go terran wether it has 2 or 3 fr ships. 3 Xan in a bp with me and I'm laughing. Ter a/c is mental.

Personally all I see you doing is making out that the fact you can xp land for value loss compensates the fact fr is insanely OP.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by SantaCruz

Lol no idea why you are complaining.
lets start at the top.
Fr does not have init advantage over BS.
Guards do. Just 1 FR ship fires before kraken Which is bloody strong. Run a calc or two before you emo.
Then If you ran calcs Co Vs Fr. Co won every calc. Clipping being init 4 only balances it out.
Fi can hit FR. I have also ran those calcs.
You guys are telling me it's stupid to Think about team ups. However it's ok for you to assume there is going to be a fort gal? isn't that the exact same thing? Assuming Def, Assuming attack team? sure is.
Just run some bloody calcs. Paste them here when you find a problem with it. Don't assume.
I have run calcs. If you have a calc that proves what i myself have learned wrong. I want to see it so i can correct the problem. Right now, there is no reason to change anything or ASSUME we took a step back.

You posted this, then later changed it back after all, it's really hard to keep track like this.

Just like you, others are spending hours on stats, only difference is you can decide on a few changes and all the work was pointless
With signups approaching, I hope you at least get to a final targetting and init soon even if you're still tweaking efficiencies afterwards. Need to give the other alliances a chance to figure out what they want to play too.

[SantaCruz]

Sign ups are 6 days away.

I just said these aren't getting changed for while now. I'm making a list. I also noted the entire time until now, what i was working on and what was being called "finished for now". I have involved people in pm throughout this entire experience. i've not worked on these alone.

[SantaCruz]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I would go terran wether it has 2 or 3 fr ships. 3 Xan in a bp with me and I'm laughing. Ter a/c is mental.

Personally all I see you doing is making out that the fact you can xp land for value loss compensates the fact fr is insanely OP.

Ter A/C is what it was before. You asked why i kept looking back at past stats. Now you can see what came of it. These stats are built like the ones years back. Ter A/C doesn't make FR op. Infact you are the only one left that feels that way, most are feeling fr isnt strong enough anymore.

Goes to show you how people read the same stats differently. What people choose to see or not see.

[Tiamat101]

Ter Fr vs Etd co: equal value attack fleets.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=n02v5fz6zjvmrdh

Ter Fr vs Cath de: equal value attack fleets
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gvrqoko8z0na2mv

Ter fr vs xan cr:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=hyimjqoc05t4cut

Ter fr vs Ter bs:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=zab91s2dyjb5l6l

Ter fr vs etd Bs:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4008sudnesgprrx

Actually theres not many fleets that cant roid Ter fr and suprisingly xan is one of them. Which is nice. But mostly everything can roid ter fr planets.

However going back to these stats as they are, Fr is good in and out of team ups and only defensive in forts(popular). But if it takes forting to be useful I'm not that worried because Each Fr planet has very clear weaknesses that can all be exploited. Also its fairly clear that cr/bs is gona be used to beat fr especially in forts.

De on the other hand is looking QUITE SOLID As its only really weak vs xan cr, Interceptor and T2 Emp viper/roach/guardian. Not to mention a quite good ingal fort possibility with Cath 3 ship build De + roach/viper and Etd has a 4 ship build De + guardian.

The one thing I just keep coming back to is I think co might be too strong, and what I mean to say is i think Etd Co does too much. Cat co(not really checked the E/R yet as they arent done) seems to be balanced this round because of targeting and if santa leaves the E/R like they are suppose to 140-170% for t1 and 80-120% for t2 we'll be fine. And Zik co has the value steal option going on with xan fi, but there are many ships that are beating it currently. Etd co however is the wild card that make Co VERY strong as both ships fire at low inits and at good damage and armor too boot!

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Tiamat101

Ter Fr vs Etd co: equal value attack fleets.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=n02v5fz6zjvmrdh

I dunno if stats changed after you posted that Bcalc.

But you have:

Value
Phoenix 546.000 De/FR
Cerberus 541.000 Co
Gryphon 443.000 BS/CR
Pegasus 448.000 Fi

Vs Value
Interceptor 510.000 Fi/DE
Investor 1.000.000 FR

In total value its fine, tho some ships are just adding to the losses on Terran side. But you have the ETD Co focus heavily on the ship that hurts the Terran FR, which makes it look more like a Bcalc made especially to get some point across.

If your point is that Pegs should be FR too, then thats actually true ofcourse
But then show some normal Bcalcs to help explain it.

[isildurx]

Are the stats on the beta server up-to-date?

[Shhhhhhh]

Yeah

[Tiamat101]

Actually Shhhh, I made calcs based on what the planet would build. since an Etd co planet needs Investors to solo attack as interceptors lose to xan fi they cant really solo attack with. However if you build the ship that fires before everything then you can hit anything you want. I also build the calcs with REALISTIC value so yes by putting the nix it shows the way the terran would have his value spread out. Now its possible that he would go kraken instead but not many of those calcs would change. Actually pegs as De makes terran HARDER to hit with xan fi because phantoms t1's Fr not De, so the pegs will always get to fire. I do think however that it should get a +dmg boost and possibly a lower armor(pegasus that is).

Shhhh my point to was show that Kai is wrong about ter fr being overpowered. Those are basic attack fleets and i admit the etd co fleet might seem a bit lopsided but look at this round xan fi planets have 2.6m PHANTOMS and only 800k banshees, because phants are there bread&butter ship w/o it they cant attack.

But back to my point I think its easy for inexperienced plays to look at these stats and say wow fr are good. With out looking at the big picture. IF! a capable alliance wanted to go fr/de Forts they could likely do VERY well but I can list the number of capable alliances on one hand and most of them aren't playing seriously.

[SantaCruz]

So are you saying i need to change Ter FR to make it better or Right now it's how it could be??
Next back to co. It's a very hard class to balance, with there being 3 attack fleets in them. Your 100% right about ETD Co lowering Inter from 556 A/C to 500 or 490 might be just enough to fix that.
Right now i haven't touch inter since i balanced the A/C D/C of all ships. I kinda figure their will be a lot more small changes like this over the next week to make these stats just that much better.

So find them and let me know! Also what you think about the 556 > 500-490

[SantaCruz]

Tia E/R are "finished" They aren't final but, i got them where i want them. At least for now. There can be some changes but, mostly it will be with E/R raise on planets rather then -guns or higher cost for cath/etd emp...

Here is my updated list of maybe changes.
Ter
Kraken D/C Lower (384 > 340ish)
Dragon D/C Lower (386 > 350ish)

Cath
-
Xan
Xan FR A/C raise (maybe 1 or 2 armor)

Zik
Clipper A/C drop (was thinking 480)
Rogue Targeting switch T1 FR T2 DE + Mara Drops T2 (could even be Rogue T1 de t2 fr) More of a edge for CR roiding FR gals.
Bucc Norm (Change to Steal init 19 A/C 480 D/C 460)

ETD
Ranger D/C raise (400 maybe with A/C drop to 530)
Investor A/C raise (to 370 D/C remains high)
Interceptor A/C D/C Drop (A/C 490-500 D/C 330)

[SantaCruz]

Once again I will remind people I will NOT change stats for awhile. Take time and look hard at them. Lets say Tuesday night is our dead line. I will edit them after my kids go to bed. So it will give everyone all day Tuesday also.

[Mzyxptlk]

First thoughts. I've looked at targetting and inits, nothing else.

Liking that no class targets itself.

Liking a lot that Fr/De doesn't target Fr/De. That significantly reduces their fortiness, to roughly on par with Fi/Co (doesn't target Cr/Bs) and Cr/Bs (doesn't target Fi/Co).

3-pod stats. Been a while, could be interesting.

Names: Loctus -> Locust, Maraduar -> Marauder, Gallon -> Galleon

Ter fleets:
- Fi/Gryphon/Pegasus: High odds of Xan Fr = ouch.
- Fr/Pegasus/Kraken: Two races with low-ETA with 0-loss defense against it, with a third at lower init.
- Bs/Gryphon/Cerberus/Pegasus: Suffers a little from double Cr coverage. Low init, though, so only Etd really hurts it, with Lich and 2 0loss ships.

Cat fleets:
- Co/Spider/Black Widow: Scarab instead of Spider is flat out worse, because dual fleeting for faking purposes is useless with EMP. No real pros or cons other than that.
- De/Viper: Just 3 ships needed full coverage? Eww... Looks strong offensively even beyond that, with only Zik to really hurt it.
- Cr/Mantis(!)/Scarab: A legit use for a Cat kill ship? I think this may be a first! Too bad about the bad init. Needs high Effs to be worth it. Only Buccs in large numbers seem to hurt Cat Cr.

Xan fleets:
- Fi/Spirit/Reaper/Shadow: Dual roiding fleet with just 1 instance of double coverage looks very juicy for a cloaked race. Only EMP and Reaper beat this.
- Fr/Phantom/Banshee or Fr/Ghost/Spectre: Best when combined with either a Fi or Cr fleet. Not as strong as either, but opens priceless faking opportunities. Almost all races have something that fires before it, though mostly off-class and/or with higher ETA.
- Cr/Shadow/Spirit/Reaper: One of two primary flests. Too bad for Xans there's no ship that targets both Fi and Co. Probably for the best, though. Only EMP and the high ETA Dragon fire first.

Zik fleets:
- Co/Clipper/Buccaneer: Looks decent after tick 800 or so, utter crap before then. Every ship other than the Cutter fires before or simultaneously to it, making this absolutely useless for soloing.
- Fr/Rogue/Marauder: Cross-feeding dual fleet without double coverage? Yummy! Kraken and Guardian (EMP) are 0loss, though, and I don't see many pros to this fleet.
- Cr/Clipper/Thief: Cross-feeding dual fleet without double coverage? Still yummy! No real pros or cons beyond that.

Etd fleets:
- Co/Cutter/Dealer: Or Ranger instead of Cutter, or Tycoon instead of Dealer. Banshee is the main problem of this fleet, and there's 2 higher ETA ships that fire before it.
- De/Guardian: I tend to dislike 3-ship roiding fleets, but this one seems to fit together well. Most ships with lower inits fire at it with T2. High init on the Devastator hurts a lot, though.
- Bs/Ranger: Three ships for full coverage? The high ETA makes up for a lot, but I still dislike it. Extremely fortable, and strong offensively too, with only the Spectre and EMP to contest with.

Overall:
Crap: Ter Fr, Zik Co, Zik Fr
Meh: Ter Fi
Balanced: Ter Bs, Zik Cr, Etd Co
Strong: Cat Co, Etd De, Xan Fr
Overpowered: Cat De, Cat Cr, Xan Fi, Xan Cr, Etd Bs

Generally speaking: buff Crap inits, give Meh good effs, give Strong low effs and nerf Overpowered inits.

Specific suggestions:

There are serious 0loss issues. A couple of fleets really suffer from it, while others have absolutely nothing to fear. This needs to be fixed. Either create a 0loss ship against every fleet, or none at all.

Xan has a two double roiding fleet opportunities (Fi/Fr, Fr/Cr), which looks dangerous on a cloaked race, especially considering how strong the Fi and Cr fleets are..

Locust is useless because there's no single-target anti-De to supplement it. Scrap Locust or add single target anti-De ship.

Syren would be far better against Bs, which would fill a hole for the Ter Bs fleet. As is, it has no place with any fleet.

Devastator is icky. The low init makes it nearly useless offensively when any amount of EMP is present, and the same low init makes it useless defensively against Cat, which is already strong. Suggest swapping inits on Devastator and Roach. On top of that, possibly switch the targets on the Roach.

Revenant should have its targets reversed, and should fire before Banshee. It's off-class, and nothing kills Xan Fi right now. Better yet, give some other race something to stop Xan Fi.

Smuggler is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Its low ETA means it's undesireable for it to fire before the Thief, but since it's off-class it also needs to be faster than the Thief to be worth building. Probably needs a class or type change.

Suggest switching the inits on Thief and Marauder. Low ETA steal ships generally should have higher inits than high ETA ones.

[fortran]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

First thoughts. I've looked at targetting and inits, nothing else.

I think you should look considering everything first before putting comments as Santa already considered the effs in the races balance.

I didnt look all but some points were clearly worked by Santa.

Cat fleets:
- De/Viper: Just 3 ships needed full coverage? Eww... Looks strong offensively even beyond that, with only Zik to really hurt it.
- You can't make ally eta for FI and CO
- Scarab with eff reduced when compared with Beetles. Also every De fleet will have to worry about FI and CO defense ally eta.


Etd fleets:
- Bs/Ranger: Three ships for full coverage? The high ETA makes up for a lot, but I still dislike it. Extremely fortable, and strong offensively too, with only the Spectre and EMP to contest with.
- Ranger eff really low against FI
- ETD BS seems strong idd. But there are a few weakness besides Spectre: Tara (with init 1), Spectre like you mentioned, Buccs (Init 6 / De), Lich (Init 4 / De)

Edit:
1) I agree Xan CR seems OP, maybe reducing its E/R?
2) Not only Xan Fi, but Etd Co and Ter Fi seems very good, but imo that's what is balancing the FR/DE fleets power.

[Shhhhhhh]

All the 0 loss ships are only vs a specific fleet, not vs a shipclass in general. So they can all be avoided by teamups. Which makes them acceptable imo. With each teamup the different races bring something good to the team, low init ship , or covering something the other race doesnt target.

Personally I'm a fan of single attacks, but given Santa's goal to promote teamups, the 0 loss of specific fleets seems ok.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by fortran

I think you should look considering everything first before putting comments as Santa already considered the effs in the races balance.

In my experience the effs are rather inconsequential, so I tend not to bother looking at them, even in final stats. If he already took my remarks into account, then so much the better.

[SantaCruz]

I will look over everything you talked about in your big post mz. Tonight i'm doing a update. This might already fix some of the problems you've found.

ofc I will list my changes here.

[Joseph]

Mz point about xan is correct.
Need a ship to fire them first (fi)

[SantaCruz]

I'm not sure how anyone expects that to happen. If Anything fires on Xan first. It would have to be ETD Co. Which is already to strong at it is. If you take EFF's into play. Beetles and Inters are strong enough to stop xan. I can't make any other race more power hitting FI. Cause that will effect Ter. There isn't a easy way to change that. Plus i really don't think it's a problem. Xan/ter fi is strong however it also gets roided. Beetles,Scarab,Reaper all fire on Fi first. Banshee's Eff's is in the 90's on avg. Init has everything to do with quality of ship. Low init means low D/C Low A/C.

[SantaCruz]

If Co was to shoot on Fi first. This would be the only way I can think of.
Banshe A/C 370 D/C 485 (around) (init has to raise to 5, then bump all FI/Co targeting after that up another init to balance)
Phant A/C 375 D/C same
Ter Fi A/C 575
Harpy D/C 355
Interceptor A/C 480 D/C 350 (HAS to stay init 4 or else it effects DE which effects CR which effect everything else)

This is a big change however. I can't see it doing any good in the long run. Banshee's eff if anything can be lowered. And it's a simple fix. This is making something extreme out of something that isn't.

[Shhhhhhh]

Just lower the banshee eff a bit, it actually have quite high D/C for its great init atm.

[isildurx]

The xan fi shot first vs co last round too, it wasn't a problem.

[M0RPH3US]

xan fi isnt that good in the end
every race has a co targeting fi
i assume we´ll see alot of those around
plus any xan fleet ingal, be it real or faked reaper, will stop xan fi

xan fi is balanced imo (if i want to use mz´s categories)
xan fr sololey cant land much, so isnt as powerful as stated
xan cr is very strong idd, xan research is aweful though

overall i wouldnt change inits or targeting anymore
maybe tweak xan cr eff´s a bit

[ChronoX]

I would like to point out a few things for the stats maker.

Tycoon doesn't need t2 BS
ALL DE class ships have relatively high armour / cost
ALL DE class ships have too high an emp resistance v roach, guardian and viper.
Might be an idea to make Black Widows init 3

[Tiamat101]

I also agree with ChronoX I think De has much too high A/C especially Cath De. Sitting around 500 and same for Dev, Its an emp ship and shouldn't be that high armor.

[SantaCruz]

Ok thanks guys. I've read all and i got my plan. i will list all changes after i'm done. There will be a LOT of small tweaks. Few init changes and such. After this people wanted to play beta. While it's running i will go over each ship one last time.
Tweak Thursday and then call them finished for appoco.
Thanks again for your help guys

[SantaCruz]

I'm going to break the changes down by race. There was a lot of small tweaks.
Ter
Syren init 6 > 7, D/C drop to 357 From 387ish
Kraken Guns 80 > 76
Dragon 83 > 77

Cath
Full A/C change on all emp ships.
Spider 14 > 13
Beetle 22 > 21
Viper 24 > 23
Scarab 50 > 49
BW 55 > 53
Roach 77 > 76
Tara 78 > 77
Mantis Guns 86 > 90

Xan
All armor changes....
Phant armor 9 > 10
Banshee 10 > 11
Rev 16 > 17
Ill 7 > 8
Spirit 19 > 20
Reaper 20 > 21
Shadow 23 > 25
Vamp 22 > 24
Ghost 45 > 48
Spec 50 > 52
Mirage 47 > 50

Zik
Raise Fi/Co costs to match other races. Eff's stayed the same unless I list a change. This was done because "number hit" was to high. Effecting E/R.
Smuggler E/R raise
Corsair Armor 11 > 12
Cutlass Armor 14 > 15
Clipper Armor 33 > 34
Bucc > Steal > init 19 > A/C 479 D/C 468

ETD
Cutter E/R raise
Inter Armor 19 > 17
Invest Armor 14 > 16
Dealer Armor 53 > 54
Dev Armor 60 > 58 + Cost drop
Ranger Armor 69 > 70
Tycoon Init 7 > 8 D/C 342 > 366