Small stats change

[Appocomaster]

I know people will want to probably throw rocks at me for this, but after a week with it being in and out of my mind (and already making a minor change of a similar nature), I still feel the Xan Fr fleet is too strong - as I know many others do.
Therefore, I'm going to further drop the Tzen damage.

It'll change from 40 damage (44 dmg/cost) to 35 damage (38 dmg/cost).

This has occured after a few hours in many channels (and on 2 servers ) trying to find a better way to fix it. It's the simpliest way of reducing the power to make it more managable.

As a slightly more minor note, I've dropped the Bomber damage from 35 to 32, because the Terrans have it hard enough as it is.

[rop1964]

i , for one, salute any effort to make a game more balance! i have not sign up yet for r 15, as i m not sure if i want to play game where player promote the bashing of defenseless planets. but i approve of change that make the game more fun and balance.

[Proxi]

So are these the actual final stats now?

[Appocomaster]

Are you implying when I say stats are final they aren't?

[bwtmc]

Setting standards whereby you stick to an inefficient or unsuitable choice you've previously made, only serves good purpose when you understand that you'd be undermined if you didn't.

You can change stats all ya like and we'll still follow your every half step, so I wouldn't worry

[Appocomaster]

I was prepared to change a few things, but they just made more mess. At the end of the day I'd prefer 5 "Appoco's ruined our round setup ffs" threads, zillions of neg rep and hatemail, but balanced stats than doing nothing, making everyone feel happy, then at the end of the round seeing things even more out of balance.
Not that these changes will make a huge difference, but some ...

[Proxi]

I agree, in the intrests of balance and all things fair. I just wanted to pick the overpowered race for once!

[bwtmc]

Well I've picked Cath (r13) and Xan (r14) so I'm clearly not the one to follow

[cypher]

yeah it's far better to have superstrong cathaars who can't be hit by xans and only by terrans really... because 'balancing' means only downgrading xan instead of looking how strong cat actually is... vipers stun 1.5 fr beetles are always very strong...

try getting enough frigs to get through vipers and having enough left to kill some taras and having enough left to cap roids....

it's funny how the only reply we get to that is " <3 viper, i won't do anything to lower it"

....

[sexy_mommy]

Weaken the ghost a little and my cath choice might not look too bad.

[Paisley]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I know people will want to probably throw rocks at me for this, but after a week with it being in and out of my mind (and already making a minor change of a similar nature), I still feel the Xan Fr fleet is too strong - as I know many others do.
Therefore, I'm going to further drop the Tzen damage.

It'll change from 40 damage (44 dmg/cost) to 35 damage (38 dmg/cost).

Nah I would only do that if it was a mid round stat change.
Plenty of time to do the changes

[Kargool]

Sigh.. Always the xans who get the cut is it..

[cypher]

Originally Posted by sexy_mommy

Weaken the ghost a little and my cath choice might not look too bad.

LOL!!!! as if cath isn't very strong versus fr already... this is pure comedy tbh.

and yes kargool, i am sad to say but i agree with you. because of some twisted way it's always xan getting the cuts while people are blind to cat which have always been VERY strong.

[stubbsy]

xan's for weiners anyway. but yes, cat is strong :/
i chose zik again, hoping that some gimp will let me fleetcatch him - repeatedly

[Rick James]

people usually just stick to the race they've played before because there never are any "drastic" changes. the different races just offer different playing styles, not advantages/disadvantages

[Merlin]

no, seriously it is always the xan getting the cut, cloaking isn't an advantage anymore, and ships too weak to do anything without have 10's of 1000's really sux. And damn that was a spinner trick right before the rounds start, as if xan weren't already downgraded, now if you'll just pull a mid round change out of yer arse, you can be just like spinner

(-:

[Uthor]

Hmmm at the time of this post I looked to see what % of ppl was play Cath, since everyone seems to think they gonna own this round. Looks like most ppl think otherwise

Races
Race Count (%)
Terran 490 (28%) Cathaar 286 (16%) Xandathrii 473 (27%) Zikonian 492 (28%)

clearly they are out numbered almost 2 to 1 by each race....gee great pickings for the Cath

[Ultimate Newbie]

Cath last round, when it was apparent that it was going to do very well, still was only equal to the other race's proportion (more or less) at tickstart.

Cathaar, traditionally, has much fewer players than the other races, as only players who expect to do really well and/or are backed up by strong alliances, and to a lesser extent, arent interested in killing ships merely taking roids, are typical Cath players.

All the others are too interesting in wading into battle and doing damage (terran), stealing the enemy's fleet like nasty buggers (ziks), protecting themselves from the hordes of barbarians at the gates (xan) .

Enjoy .

[Neferti]

I've always been cathaar. Oddly enough, my reasons for taking it have changed with the game.

Way back in round 6 it was presented as a more defensive option, as with EMP resistance seperate from standard armour, as well as multi-ship targetting, it was possible to make EMP very effective, especially against pods. However, gradually Cathaar has become more focused on alliance playing and attacking. My playing style has changed accordinly. I wonder if my playing style would have changed if I had not picked cathaar back in round 6?

What I like about cathaar though is being able to take people's roids while their ships sit there helpless. Xand players, back in the day, were supposed to be sneaky, stealthy players who nobody could tell what ships they had. I would argue that perhaps xand are *more* effective now. This is because, with the change from Military scans to Fleet scans, *nobody* can see what Xands have sent in their fleets. And if you make them totally immune to Unit scans too, xand would be far too powerful.

If xand are always so weak as you say, how come they always do well? So what if you have to build lots of ships to be effective. Your ships are proportionally cheaper than the other race's! And having 100,000 ships attacking someone gives you a bit of a psychological advantage

[Rick James]

i stick to my original post

[rop1964]

as far as the race goes, i like Cathaar because they are non destructive race, because their philosophy (supposedly) is one of peaceful fighting, disabling ennemy rather than killing them.. but force is to admit that 16% of a universal population is not much, it s basically a 5 vs 1 battle, and an anverage 2 vs 1 by race type. so to have a fighting chance, they got to be powerful! xans got huge numbers of ships and cloak. terran got huge fire power and armor. zik got stealing and a fair armor. so you got to give something to Cathaar to balance all that.

[Rick James]

Cathaar got Initiative!!!

terrans got their armor, xan got their firepower, and zik got their steal

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Neferti

Xand players, back in the day, were supposed to be sneaky, stealthy players who nobody could tell what ships they had... with the change from Military scans to Fleet scans, *nobody* can see what Xands have sent in their fleets. And if you make them totally immune to Unit scans too, xand would be far too powerful.

Well, Xan incoming these days is the easiest to be able to ascertain simply because of their numbers. 250 000 incs at eta 7 can only be Fighters or Corvettes, and assuming that the target has some anti CO, its almost certain to be entirely FI. In no way is that stealthy or sneaky. Also, the person under attack are able to fleet scan Xans, however that doesnt tend to be overly useful unless they are trying to see how many spiders s/he has sent as Xan ships are cloaked. Often, a Unit scan will suffice, and quite frankly, that is cheaper than the minimum requirement for all the other races .

With regards to unit scans, i suggested that Xan's become gradually more immune to Units as they complete a race specific branch of the tech tree that was under proposal somewhere else. Cathaar would get killing EMP (up to 15% through the three researches) and i have forgotton the other two races, but by the third Xan specific research, Xans would also be immune to Unit scans. This means that towards the end of the round, the ability of Xans to be able to fake corvette and Fighter fleets would finnally be back, and this would be an effective tool and comparitive to the other race's specialised advantages. I think it would be a nice thing to try (perhaps in a speedgame first), just to see how it goes.

I wouldnt dismiss it out of hand.

If xand are always so weak as you say, how come they always do well?

Xan is always a 'crash or crash through' type of race - either they land with very few losses and get nigh on max cap, or they die utterly. Rarely is there any middle ground, and for that reason most Xan players are incredibly cautious when attacking - they will give the defender the benefit of the doubt and recall. Xan is not the race for Benneh . This means that Xans will either get alot of roids for very few losses, or not take fleet losses as they have recalled - this gives them a somewhat high value, coupled with a fair ability to protect your own roids (generally the exception is against Cath CR fleets which tradtionally get through), means that Xans typcially can have high value and ok XP. It doesnt make them easy to play, however. Last round, i was a prime example of where a single mistake results in your round being stuffed - i crashed. and burnt.

Xan is very unforgiving.

So what if you have to build lots of ships to be effective. Your ships are proportionally cheaper than the other race's! And having 100,000 ships attacking someone gives you a bit of a psychological advantage

The absolute values of firepower, armour and ship cost is virtually irrelevent. What counts is the proportional firepower (ie, how many resources to purchase 1 unit of armour, damage etc), and use that for the basis of comparison. So in that regard, you are right (!!) .

I would say (as i have mentioned above) that having 100000 ships attacking you does nothing except make it blatently obvious that you are attacking with FI. :\

[Rick James]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Last round, i was a prime example of where a single mistake results in your round being stuffed - i crashed. and burnt.

Xan is very unforgiving.

You're right on point there. The worst thing a Xan "crash" can do is depress the player into quitting.. as in admitting that they have crashed and burnt

It is the best advice for Xan to be very careful with their landings.

It is also important to remember that Xan ships cause the most damage and if a xan is willing to crash this usually (note usually) tends to give the defender extremely high losses too, so, well, shortly put like you said, xan is not easy to play!

[cypher]

lol indeed... having 100000 is no advantage... it's easy to stop usually (surely this round as tzens now pwn fi aswell) you can't fleetscan a xan indeed....but unit is just as easy and in 9 out of 10 cases comparing to your own fleet and you know what's coming.

xan hasn't really got that high firepower anymore after all the tweaks that were made for it as they get downgraded almost every round and statsmakers prefer having cathaar immensely strong.

also universe misc stats aren't really that correct atm as people will still be changing races quite a bit.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by cypher

it's easy to stop usually (surely this round as tzens now pwn fi aswell)

Universal Frigates are ETA 8, FI raid shows up ETA 7 so unless you see it coming they wont help you unless they are in-gal TBT. Also, TBT should be out attacking .

but unit is just as easy and in 9 out of 10 cases comparing to your own fleet and you know what's coming.

I daresay its even more often than that - only in incredibly rare instances would a xan get away with a fake.

xan hasn't really got that high firepower anymore after all the tweaks that were made for it as they get downgraded almost every round and statsmakers prefer having cathaar immensely strong.

Well, to be fair, reducing the TBT's power increased the effectiveness of Xan FI fleets - so its a bit of a give with one hand, take with the other type situation.

also universe misc stats aren't really that correct atm as people will still be changing races quite a bit.

Quite true.

[Rick James]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Well, to be fair, reducing the TBT's power increased the effectiveness of Xan FI fleets - so its a bit of a give with one hand, take with the other type situation.

But the FI fleets havent been upgraded.. The downgrading just forces to rely more on Fi fleets

[Neferti]

On the '250k eta 7 ships can only be fi' well yeah of course they can. Making you unable to unit scan a xand doesn't make those eta 7 ships suddenly possible to be frigates.

Maybe we should make xands have double strength distorters against unit scans. This way, it would be possible for xands to be immune to scans if they want to invest the resources and time. I don't think simply making xands have a blanket immunity to all scans would really be fair.

[bwtmc]

Neferti, it's not like a Xan who wants distorters has anything stopping him/her building enough to deal with most scanners.

5 Ticks for a construction is hardly a long time.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by cypher

xan hasn't really got that high firepower anymore after all the tweaks that were made for it as they get downgraded almost every round and statsmakers prefer having cathaar immensely strong.

hehehe. Still trying to persuade people cath are the best so you can go xand and roid them all round?

[cypher]

UN if someone hits your gal at say 4:55 the chances will be quite high you keep your fleet home to defend ingal meaning those ships ARE indeed at home or will be soon enough (atleast in the active regions of pa.)

and gate, no not really

[Neferti]

Originally Posted by bwtmc

Neferti, it's not like a Xan who wants distorters has anything stopping him/her building enough to deal with most scanners.

5 Ticks for a construction is hardly a long time.

Fine, ok I'm stupid and I won't try and come up with new ideas.

[higginz]

still think if ur skillfull enough, zik pawn

fleetcatching tactics to steal other ships and stealing roids at same time, how can you go wrong?

and its not like were actually killing people here, wheres the fun in being diplomatic and just disabling the ships like cat, or just sendin loads of flak like xans / terrans, ziks are easily the most fun race

after all, pa is a game so the most fun you can have has to be the best, no?

[rop1964]

in my suggestion foe improving race, i offered to extend the cloak to the planet, offering a base 25% of scan failure . i also offered a 20% reduction for damage receive for shield technology for cath fleet at base.
for zik i suggest higher covert op % as they use nanorobotic . and teran would get +10% of all mining ability.

[Merlin]

Well now that the round is underway, the most glaring example of bad stats and poor testing is xan tzens vs xan fi. You have no defence, PERIOD. Tzen init means your anti frigate is always dead without ever firing a shot. There is no anti frigate defence for xan vs xan. Way to go Appoco totaly unbalanced the game in one simple step. The only thing that could fix it now is tzen & vsh init being the same. So there'd be equal carnage on both sides. But as is, you probably made the biggest bugger up since rnd 1. Sad thing is unlike Spinner, you won't make the changes.

[Squidly]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Well now that the round is underway, the most glaring example of bad stats and poor testing is xan tzens vs xan fi. You have no defence, PERIOD. Tzen init means your anti frigate is always dead without ever firing a shot. There is no anti frigate defence for xan vs xan. Way to go Appoco totaly unbalanced the game in one simple step. The only thing that could fix it now is tzen & vsh init being the same. So there'd be equal carnage on both sides. But as is, you probably made the biggest bugger up since rnd 1. Sad thing is unlike Spinner, you won't make the changes.

Merlin old mate... I lub you dearly... BUT

Firstly, piss off. I don't recall you ever putting out a full set of working, perfect stats. The guy tried, and tbfh, all things considered things could be a fkload worse. I am xan right now, and just got most my fi wiped by about 300 tzens. Guess I'd best start complaining eh? right? WOO FREAKIN HOO!

Secondly, Wow. Way to encourage a guy putting in an almost thankless job. Thus far I think we had one decent thread from The_Fish, but otherwise it's been whiny toadies who keep launching their toys out of the pram over the stupidest little things. Seriously. Grow up.

Thirdly, there's a ####ing lovely comparison to make. Something along the lines of cutting a random limb off and burying him in a pile of salt I think. If you really hate the xan stats, fine. Hate em. But, quit trying to make volunteers look like shite just because of one lousy mistake. Spinner was awesome, yes. Apocco is trying. So take your personal bashing out of here and try something constructive, such as trying NOT to be an arse when things aren't going your way.

Fs dude =/


Edit: what heartless said.

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Well now that the round is underway, the most glaring example of bad stats and poor testing is xan tzens vs xan fi. You have no defence, PERIOD. Tzen init means your anti frigate is always dead without ever firing a shot. There is no anti frigate defence for xan vs xan. Way to go Appoco totaly unbalanced the game in one simple step. The only thing that could fix it now is tzen & vsh init being the same. So there'd be equal carnage on both sides. But as is, you probably made the biggest bugger up since rnd 1. Sad thing is unlike Spinner, you won't make the changes.

Xan fr being able to roid xan was intended, though. Otherwise Xan would have been WAY too strong. On the other side, with a decent amount of vsh most xan fr fleets won't land on you anyways. They might kill loads but lose the fr when the remaining fi fire back. Also, a small viper fleet does wonders in reducing the defender losses.

On the other hand, changing the stats at this point would clearly **** up a the fleets of a lot of people, especially of those which took precautions not to have to rely on vsh defense only.

[jerome]

xand IS way too strong.