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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 14:10   #1
M0RPH3US
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m0rph3us R60 Stats

Like i stated before, all those standard sets bore me (xan fi, cath co, ter bs...)

And since i fail to find anyone offering a diffrent set i did my own.

Targeting and Inits finished, rest to follow asap:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

please comment
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 15:39   #2
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

I kind of like the setup at first glance.
How ever the xan CR is unstoppable basicly.
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 17:34   #3
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

All these ships hitting their own shipclass at T1 is probably gonna create some issues. Unless you plan to change armor/dmg efficiencies.

But basic idea looks nice tho, it creates some different mechanics than we're used to. (fi only being stopped by fi/co for example)
oh and yay, no cloaked xan fi :P
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 17:50   #4
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I kind of like the setup at first glance.
How ever the xan CR is unstoppable basicly.
Zik BS (Rogue) solo stops XAN CR
at the same time XAN CR cant really land against XAN CR

but i agree that xan cr is hard to stop, they wont have uber effs though, at least not those wraith
at the same time, xan research speed should stay untouched, so getting to xan cr takes some time and that should be rewarded
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 17:56   #5
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
All these ships hitting their own shipclass at T1 is probably gonna create some issues. Unless you plan to change armor/dmg efficiencies.

But basic idea looks nice tho, it creates some different mechanics than we're used to. (fi only being stopped by fi/co for example)
oh and yay, no cloaked xan fi :P
yeah i feel this really could be an issue, without beeing able to run some calcs its hard to say though
hoping for appoco to let me upload those to beta (will finish effs by tonight/tomorrow morning)

yeah iīd love to see some things like this implemented
same goes for a pure emp roiding fleet and a pure cloaked roiding fleet for etd
or those steal ships, that steal to a secondary attack class of cathaar

thx for the feedback so far (butcher too)
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 19:04   #6
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Zik BS (Rogue) solo stops XAN CR
at the same time XAN CR cant really land against XAN CR

but i agree that xan cr is hard to stop, they wont have uber effs though, at least not those wraith
at the same time, xan research speed should stay untouched, so getting to xan cr takes some time and that should be rewarded
Soz, didnt check zik bs then.
On anothee note, the only anti CR is in cath/zik or xan/zik roidclasses.
This is just issues i find. We aknow both xan and cath will always be played due to cloacking and emp.
Xan cloacked ships firing same ship class aint that bad, it will be a gamble wether to land def/att or not
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 19:24   #7
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

What if spider was EMP with init 1?
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 19:27   #8
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Xan cloacked ships firing same ship class aint that bad, it will be a gamble wether to land def/att or not
Constant cloaked suicide defense gets old really fast.
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 20:02   #9
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Constant cloaked suicide defense gets old really fast.
Well when alliances actualy fight each other for rank its pretty cool.
If there is 5 allies the same score and naped with each other untill pt1000 its boring, nobody will risk losses cus that means someone else will overtake em
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 20:19   #10
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

I love the Idea, and I like where you are going with these stats, My only concern is all the same class firing. It's going to make for a lot of suicide defs from lower value planets. Another Xp based round I fear and we all know how much people hated last round.
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 20:32   #11
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

possible changes i am thinking about atm:
Switch targeting of TARANTULA
Add a EMP CR targeting CR for ETD
Switch targeting of HYDRA
Making the Phantom hit FI instead of CO (terran co seems too weak overall)

will finish effs first though
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Last edited by M0RPH3US; 27 Dec 2014 at 20:39.
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Unread 27 Dec 2014, 22:56   #12
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well when alliances actualy fight each other for rank its pretty cool.
If there is 5 allies the same score and naped with each other untill pt1000 its boring, nobody will risk losses cus that means someone else will overtake em
Plz dont let your view of politics cloud shipstats discussion.

With ships firing at their own shipclass, especially with cloaked ships with high dmg/ low armor. You end up with crazy breps/bcals, where the side that sent less ships 'wins' the battle and it actually makes sense to send less ships, since you still kill the full attacking fleet and lose your own full fleet.
You get a ton of fleets that can never land on eachother.

But, with targetting like it is atm, it seems nearly impossible to change this.
You could fix it with raising armor eff values, but then you probably get some complaints about it being crazy defensive stats.
It's a bit of a shame tho, if you could let ships fire at their own shipclass, it gives you a lot more freedom in designing and balancing like you're showing here.
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 00:07   #13
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

You can have ships firing on their own class, just not at T1(or above 100% eff).
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 00:21   #14
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Plz dont let your view of politics cloud shipstats discussion.

With ships firing at their own shipclass, especially with cloaked ships with high dmg/ low armor. You end up with crazy breps/bcals, where the side that sent less ships 'wins' the battle and it actually makes sense to send less ships, since you still kill the full attacking fleet and lose your own full fleet.
You get a ton of fleets that can never land on eachother.

But, with targetting like it is atm, it seems nearly impossible to change this.
You could fix it with raising armor eff values, but then you probably get some complaints about it being crazy defensive stats.
It's a bit of a shame tho, if you could let ships fire at their own shipclass, it gives you a lot more freedom in designing and balancing like you're showing here.
Politics and sucsess of stats go hand in hand, denying this would be utter lunacy.
Politics partly dictates how the round and stats play out, some stats reach their "potentiability of fun" depending on how politics plays out.
Stats that makes ship fire within the same class makes round with two strong alliance wich is battling each other for #1 very interesting, as when your opposition takes more losses than you brings you closer to #1.
Instead of worrying abouth #3, #4 or #5 overtaking you actualy do some killing and destroying to attain your goal
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 10:33   #15
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

ok i added effs - ofc nothing close to final
guns for emp ships and e/r are pretty much random, as i got no idea how they will function without a bcalc, hoping for appoco to let me upload, play around and finish

Other changes i did:
Some target-switching to resolve the "Firing at own class as T1" Exceptions are fi class ships, however the one fi attack fleet is totally emp
Aswell i changed target of Phantom to FI (instead of CO), so Ter co is able to land on Xan
at the same time it will weaken a good xan setup, while improving a weaker TER one
Also i added some 3rd targets for off-roiding class ships (Xan, Zik and Etd) with low init, to make them worth building (for some)
Thief init lowered to fire before ETD Dealer
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 18:32   #16
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Are the stats that are up on beta yours?
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 20:04   #17
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

yes
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 20:25   #18
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

yeah, but only had limited time to adjust effs so far

Far from where i want them to be
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 20:30   #19
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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yeah, but only had limited time to adjust effs so far

Far from where i want them to be
If you know what you want, and know how to use the tools emp eff takes a few minutes to complete
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Unread 28 Dec 2014, 22:14   #20
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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If you know what you want, and know how to use the tools emp eff takes a few minutes to complete
hehe
easy saying

since its the first time i got a shot at using beta server, it took me some time to find out
i am getting there now though

i expect to be able to "finish" emp eff ac dc tomorrow after work
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Unread 29 Dec 2014, 19:34   #21
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Ok they are finished for review

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=781877988309

enjoy and comment please

P.s. thanks appoco for letting me play around, i learned much about targeting/stats, prolly more then in the 40ish rounds i played
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Unread 29 Dec 2014, 20:02   #22
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

interesting and different i like em
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Unread 29 Dec 2014, 21:48   #23
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

loooks interesting
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 00:32   #24
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Ter Co/Cr gives 2 roiding fleets while perfectly covering all classes, which is nice. Both of those fleets are fairly underpowered, though, only Xan is really vulnerable to either of them. A/C and D/C are about 50 too low across the board.

Cat looks way too overpowered. Bs roids basically everything, and De is almost as good. I see no real way to counter this, other than by dropping the T1 effs from the usual 160% to 140% or so. That said, Beetle and Spider are worthless because they hug and kill, respectively, the only Fi and Co fleets in these stats.

(A technical tip: you'll want Fr ERes to be as low as possible, otherwise you have almost no room to tweak EMP effs against Cr and (especially) Bs.)

Xan looks alright. I like the way Banshee/Cr covers everything, while still leaving Xan weak to Fi/Co incs.

Zik looks very weak. There's a lot of stealing into bad classes (Thief T1, Pirate T1, Bucc T2/T3), and the remaining stealing leaves little opportunity for proper crossfeeding of fleets. Of the off-class ships, only the Bucc feeds a roiding fleet (Bs), but the moment you actually have a Bs fleet to reinforce, the Bucc is useless. Effs are also low. Of all the races, Zik targetting is most in need of an overhaul.

It's unfortunate that including an extremely offensive fleet like Etd Fi has become necessary in order to keep XP even remotely viable. Here we see the effect of changing formulae around with nary a thought for other factors.

Beyond that, Etd looks a bit under par. You get 2 roiding fleets with just 4 combat ships, but the De hole is hard to plug. I don't see many alliances going Etd, with Cat as strong as it is. Between Etd and Cat it's basically playing swap-the-roid, but where Cat has good defense against most other fleets, Etd struggles.
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 00:47   #25
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Change
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 04:56   #26
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

better than the other standard set of stats i saw on forums the other day
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 06:58   #27
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Ter Co/Cr gives 2 roiding fleets while perfectly covering all classes, which is nice. Both of those fleets are fairly underpowered, though, only Xan is really vulnerable to either of them. A/C and D/C are about 50 too low across the board.

Cat looks way too overpowered. Bs roids basically everything, and De is almost as good. I see no real way to counter this, other than by dropping the T1 effs from the usual 160% to 140% or so. That said, Beetle and Spider are worthless because they hug and kill, respectively, the only Fi and Co fleets in these stats.

(A technical tip: you'll want Fr ERes to be as low as possible, otherwise you have almost no room to tweak EMP effs against Cr and (especially) Bs.)

Xan looks alright. I like the way Banshee/Cr covers everything, while still leaving Xan weak to Fi/Co incs.

Zik looks very weak. There's a lot of stealing into bad classes (Thief T1, Pirate T1, Bucc T2/T3), and the remaining stealing leaves little opportunity for proper crossfeeding of fleets. Of the off-class ships, only the Bucc feeds a roiding fleet (Bs), but the moment you actually have a Bs fleet to reinforce, the Bucc is useless. Effs are also low. Of all the races, Zik targetting is most in need of an overhaul.

It's unfortunate that including an extremely offensive fleet like Etd Fi has become necessary in order to keep XP even remotely viable. Here we see the effect of changing formulae around with nary a thought for other factors.

Beyond that, Etd looks a bit under par. You get 2 roiding fleets with just 4 combat ships, but the De hole is hard to plug. I don't see many alliances going Etd, with Cat as strong as it is. Between Etd and Cat it's basically playing swap-the-roid, but where Cat has good defense against most other fleets, Etd struggles.
Thx for the detailed feedback mz

i agree with most of it an have some fixes workarounds on my mind

Ter
up ac dc o verall

Cat
higher emp eff for beetle to 160ish
swap t1 and t2 of scarab to make fr a more viable option to stop de
Swap t1 and t2 of tarantula to make cr a better anti bs option
lower bs effs a lil

xan
no change

zik swap targeting of corsair
Change class of buccaneer to de with targeting: bs fr cr
ac dc upping for most steal ships

etd
higher eff of gryphon to 155-160
swap targeing of investor

Other ideas:
Adding a co pod for zik (and making cutlass a co)
Adding a emp cr for etd to fire at bs de init 1
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 16:24   #28
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
higher emp eff for beetle to 160ish
I don't think this solves anything. Beetle still fires after the fleet it's most needed for. I would swap the types on the Spider and Beetle. That way both ships suddenly have a function. Beetle to kill Etd Fi if it's properly flakked, and Spider to EMP Ter Co before it fires. neither should be too efficient, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
swap t1 and t2 of scarab to make fr a more viable option to stop de
Swap t1 and t2 of tarantula to make cr a better anti bs option
Works for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
zik swap targeting of corsair
Change class of buccaneer to de with targeting: bs fr cr
This is an improvement, but I dislike that this change will force every Zik to get Buccs once they've stolen anything. What would you think of swapping Etd De and Zik Fr? That way, Zik De can steal Bs T1, and Bs can keep stealing De T1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
swap targeing of investor
I like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Adding a co pod for zik (and making cutlass a co)
This, plus Sair to kill Fi/Fr seems a reasonable alternative to my Fr/De suggestion. Could simply move the Fr pod to Co. It isn't that useful for Xan Fr to team with Zik Fr anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Adding a emp cr for etd to fire at bs de init 1
I think this is a good idea. I don't think the Investor targets need to be swapped if you do this too, but it probably won't hurt either.
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Unread 30 Dec 2014, 19:06   #29
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

i followed your suggestions on cath
gave zik co pod
and did the other targetswaps like stated before
added Illuminati for Etd, the name might cause some issues for ppl using munin-clones but i like it :P

zik still is too weak for my liking and thief pretty much a useless ship now that wont be build by many

suggestions welcome, while i overhaul the effs


edit: close to undoing the zik co thing, as i wont find a setup zik profits from
sleeping a night over it though
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Last edited by M0RPH3US; 30 Dec 2014 at 20:42.
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Unread 31 Dec 2014, 12:46   #30
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

UPDATE

Cath change undone and solved in a diffrent way:
spider now kills fi instead of co and beetle emps T1 co and T2 fi (still firing after etd fi, but beeing able to emp ter and zik co)
Scarab t1-t2 switch undone

zik got the mentioned co pod, but also kept their fr pod, letting them have 3 pods from startup
Quite some nice stealships now which steal into their roidclasses as t1
Cutlass, corsair, thief, buccaneer
Was going to have the Cutter fire before etd DE, but that would weaken ETD too much
So FR fleet of ZIK is their weakest roiding fleet, but i guess thats ok, since they got 3 to choose from
Didnt want to remove the FR pod afterall, to enable teamups for xans, as them might need some emp resistance to land
Aswell it would have pretty much excluded FR play for alliances, with just one race having fr pods

Etd got the Illuminator like said before (Illusion name changed to Mimic, illusion was a fi pod anyhow - so you can do !eff 10k illu without going nuts :P)
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Unread 31 Dec 2014, 20:04   #31
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

I pretty much like these stats.
Every race or class has it's chance.
Like the FI setup, only targetted by FI/CO and pure emp.
You gave a nice CO fleet to Zik, able to teamup CO with Ter now, only stoppable by Ter pegs or emp.
And also that the best anti-CR/BS ships stay on the CR/BS class, besides emp.
But Zik FR is weaker now, only useful for zik faking BS: Xan don't need Zik FR, 2 Xan can 3-fleet teamup over 3 targets. Teamup with Zik FR kills that.
I just don't get the Centaur t2, seeing that every anti-DE FR has better init, but that doesn't harm anything.
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Unread 31 Dec 2014, 21:35   #32
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

I had a look at the stats on beta and they look decent
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Unread 2 Jan 2015, 11:35   #33
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Seeing as signups open today, how far done are these?
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Unread 2 Jan 2015, 11:45   #34
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Pretty sure these are final now from speaking to m0 yesterday. Whether they are chosen and then adjusted by appoco is another thing..
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Unread 2 Jan 2015, 13:14   #35
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Yes i am finished with em
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Unread 2 Jan 2015, 17:03   #36
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

I like these stats best of the 3 i have seen
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 00:10   #37
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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I like these stats best of the 3 i have seen
Not that i think they are better than my stats, but surely, Appocomaster would rather pick the worst stats just to get at us all
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 00:13   #38
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

stats ingame atm suck.these stats wouldv been much more fun
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 00:55   #39
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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stats ingame atm suck.these stats wouldv been much more fun
I think the only solution is to keep PMing appocomaster untill he changes his mind
Either one of the other two sets suggested, or a old one.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 11:03   #40
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

While I would have prefered these, lets not pretend the ingame ones are terrible, or somehow worse than the set from Butcher.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 12:37   #41
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

It looks like it's my set up ingame atm. I thought m0's looked fun, but I'm confident that my set will also contribute to a good round and show to be a good set of stats.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 14:36   #42
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

People are actualy considering quitting due these stats. So lets not pretend it is a good choice from appoc
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 18:26   #43
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

isils??????????????? lol
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 19:41   #44
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

BB: That is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 23:16   #45
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

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BB: That is the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.
Just what ive heard.
Just look at the resception of them overall.
Appoco even sent out a ingame mail about it.
its nothing personal, myself just feel they dont fit how PA is being played atm
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Unread 3 Jan 2015, 23:38   #46
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Re: m0rph3us R60 Stats

Just like you "hear" all that politics intel....

I haven't seen any bad reception of them, pretty much evenly split. m0's stats maybe have been recieved better, yours a bit worse.

"how pa is being played atm". You don't know how pa is being played atm, seeing as xp is being changed next round won't play out the same as past two.
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