Dreaming

[Deepflow]

Not only is it a song by Blondie that was covered by the Smashing Pumpkins... but it's something I have become more and more fascinated with recently.

Dreaming seems to me to be one of the most bizarre activities that my brain engages in. Whilst there are certain theories that say that it is a useful ,and even neccessary, thing for the brain to do (something to do with moving the events of the day from short to long term memory) it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Mostly, like (almost) everyone, I cannot remember my dreams. However, what I do remember about them seems to make little sense to me. The sheer lack of detectable logical cohesion in them, coupled with the apparent complete randomness has always seemed odd to me. Which brings me onto the subject of lucid dreaming.

There have been occassions where I have been able to control my dreams, and on those occassions (which have normally ended in either rampant sex or some form of flying) I have still not had "full" control. By that I mean that my subconscious still puts obstacles in my way, in pretty much any possible form. From the creation of new "enemies" which have to be dealt with to some kind of restriction of my perspective (the dream equivalent of being in a neck brace, or something similar).

The lack of dream recall also bothers me. There are lots of theories for this, my own personal one that I've thought up in the last few days is that you don't remember your dreams because if you did it would drive you insane. I can't imagine being in a completely random, virtually uncontrollable environment for 8 out of ever 24 hours wouldn't be detrimental to your mental health. That's an awfully long time.

Anyway, I have decided to start putting some effort into trying to acheive lucidity in my dreams. Wiki said the first step would be to keep a dream diary and write down my dreams as soon as i wake up. Apparently this will increase my powers of recall.

So, those are Deepflow's random thoughts on dreams. The nature of my ramblings leaves the door open for pretty much anything re: dreams on your parts, so get to it.

[Dante Hicks]

After E I always get more vivid / disturbing dreams (for the few days after pilling I mean). I'm not sure if everyone get's this.

And I've always seen dreaming as "mind defragging".

[Appocomaster]

Deepflow, that's actually pretty cool. Most people don't achieve much control over my dreams. Usually I only become "concious" of my dreams when something is going really wrong, and then I wake myself up.

I think that dreams are meant to process events that happened in the day and link them up in whatever ways with your memory using your subconcious.

I guess I think that dreams fade because they're processed and filed. The only reason you remember dreams is if the subconcious flags up the dream might be useful in future, and leaves an "edge" of it for you to grab from memory if you come across something that links to it.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Most people don't achieve much control over my dreams.

Henry has magic powers.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Henry has magic powers.

What has rabbits out of hats got to do with dreaming?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

Henry has magic powers.

ZZZZzzzap!

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

Anyway, I have decided to start putting some effort into trying to acheive lucidity in my dreams. Wiki said the first step would be to keep a dream diary and write down my dreams as soon as i wake up. Apparently this will increase my powers of recall.

So, those are Deepflow's random thoughts on dreams. The nature of my ramblings leaves the door open for pretty much anything re: dreams on your parts, so get to it.

I wake up most mornings about nine or so and then doze for a few hours and I always dream a fair bit then. Recently I've done something sort of similar to that dream diary idea but with less effort involved. As soon as I wake up I say what happened in my dream out loud and so far this means I can remember it later. I don't know if I'm recalling my dream or just what I said though. However I cannot see how that would matter. I never have much power as regards lucid dreaming, actually maybe I do and I just don't remember it! I do recall realising I was in a nightmare in a dream when I was very young (maybe eight?) but I still ended up getting scared and woke up

I've never read that much about dreams or their powers or whatever shit we're supposed to take seriously. Hopefully one day I can evolve freddie kruger like powers (although I think dace may have gotten a headstart on me there lol!)

[PSH]

Approximately 50% of the time when I nod off i have a quick dream of me running or walking somewhere and I trip over a cerb and this makes me jump and wake up, this used to piss me off but I am used to it now and it only ever happens once in the same night so I just turn over and get back to sleep.

I visit the same places in my dreams, there is a shopping centre that I have never seen and probably doesn't even exist but I visit regularly in my dreams and when I am there i'm pretty sure i'm thinking i'm here so I must be dreaming. Also in some fight or flight situations I know that I am dreaming so I choose to fight and nothing ever gets out of hand.

[JonnyBGood]

This one time in a dream I was beating the shit out of this guy with a crowbar and he was bleeding everywhere from his head and I was chuckling away as I did it and then I tried pinching myself to wake up and I didn't and now he's dead and I keep the body in my wall.

[HAL-9000]

Apparently you only remember your dreams if you wake up during them. This makes sense. Why else do your dreams never seem to end? Because it hasn't finished yet? It also explains why you might wake up during a sudden part of your dream. Say getting shot in the leg or something. You would wake up all flustered. You would remember your dream and your leg might actually be sore. I have heard that this is because you actually did have a sore leg. That your subconscious interpreted this pain as best it could and that you woke up so that you could rectify whatever problem was causing the pain in your leg. Thus you remember the dream.

I've looked into this and it seems pretty consistant. I once dreamed that i was falling down a slope and that I kept hitting these odd platforms and that every time i hit one i broke my legs in a different place. When i awoke I remembered my dream, the dream hadn't ended, and my legs were in an odd position and extremely uncomfortable.

I also find that I dream a lot when it is hot. I wake up sweating like mad having had a crazy dream. I used to think that I sweat because I had the dream, which was scaring me or something. It makes more sense when i consider it the other way around. I was sweating because I was hot. I woke up before I was meant to because I was hot, thus I remembered my dream.

Sometimes I will have several dreams in 1 night. It is also the case that on those occasions I woke up during the night for some reason or another. If I have a good nights sleep I do not dream. If I have no alarm to wake me and sleep until I am ready without being uncomfortable in any way, I will not dream. If you remember having several dreams it is likely that you woke up in the night and just can't remember doing so.

It makes sense to me. Dreaming is not the special facotr here. Waking up during your dream is. If you are able to control your dream, perhaps you are semi-conscious. This is also an explanation that I have heard for out-of-body experiences. A semi-conscious state in which you are waking during a dream, but taking a bloody long time about it. Being able to control yourself but having just enough consciousness for the dream not to be a seemingly random mixture of your memories, as most dreams seem to be.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

This is also an explanation that I have heard for out-of-body experiences.

That's funny because the explanation I heard was that you're taking a lot of drugs, isn't that right henry?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

Apparently you only remember your dreams if you wake up during them.

I doubt this is true, but its the sort of thing you could actually test. Keep a notepad next to your bed and record the dream you just had every time you woke up. Then if you ever remembered a dream that wasnt in the pad, you'd know that this hypothesis was wrong. The only problem would be how to validate when the dreams actually happened. Lets say youre having a normal day, and some random event reminds you of a dream that you had. How do you know when you actually had this dream? I often 'remember' dreams that I think happened the previous night, but theres no way I could possibly know that they didnt really happen 2 weeks (or 2 years) ago and I'm just remembering them now. There's normally an odd 'feeling' that the dreams really did happen last night, even though theres no possible way to justify this.

A similar thing happens when I have dreams which I feel I've had before ('recurring dreams'). I dont know if true that I've actually had them before, or whether this is the first time I've had them and the feeling of similarity is just deja vu. There's a certain set of dreams involving a fairground which I believe I've had several times over the last 5-6 years, but for all I know I could just have had them all in one night a few years ago and then remembered them one by one. Theres no possible means of validation.

[HAL-9000]

Problem with this is, as said before, sometimes you wake up in the night and don't remember doing so. Maybe you find out that you woke up because someone saw you, or something, and they tell you the next day. In this case you would then wake up the next morning, perhaps remembering a dream, but not remembering that you woke up, thus invalidating this method of testing.

[Nadar]

I usually remember two types of dreams:

1) A nightmare. Like being at the point of getting killed or something. Usually I wake up when I fall off the top of a building and then I remember the dream. They don't really bother me though.

2) Dreaming about a girl. God I hate those dreams. When I wake up from the dream I can walk around a day or two while actually having feelings for her, just because of the dream I had about her. Weird isn't it? Anyone else had this type of dream?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nadar

2) Dreaming about a girl. God I hate those dreams. When I wake up from the dream I can walk around a day or two while actually having feelings for her, just because of the dream I had about her. Weird isn't it? Anyone else had this type of dream?

I get this sometimes, i tend not to think too much of it thought tbh. I prefer to just enjoy the dream (if you know what i mean ) then realise that it was just a dream and not let it affect my life.

[Nadar]

I know it was just a dream, but it's not like I can help feeling that way after having those kinds of dreams. Feelings is not controllable you know

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Nadar

I know it was just a dream, but it's not like I can help feeling that way after having those kinds of dreams. Feelings is not controllable you know

They are to a certain extent, at least that's what I've always found. Of course you can't control them completely, but I have never seen it as a case of "giving up and just doing whatever my feelings tell me to".

[Nadar]

No, of course I won't do whatever my feelings tell me to do. If I should have tried hitting on every girl I had a dream about, I would probably have been seen upon as hornyboy or something

[Tomkat]

You should have had more drugs.

[Deepflow]

I'll attempt to put it a different way...

there are girls I have "feelings about"
there are girls I don't

there are girls I dream about
there are girls I don't

these two seem to have very little correlation. Pretty much the only prerequisite of me dreaming about one is physical attractiveness.

either that or im just lying to myself *shrug*

[Weeks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Recently I've done something sort of similar to that dream diary idea but with less effort involved. As soon as I wake up I say what happened in my dream out loud and so far this means I can remember it later.

"And then I inserted my fist up his rectal cavity, and, oh my god, how he spun!"

I've had dreams which have successfully predicted the future through asking my sister to look up the meanings in her dream books. Bizarre things dreams.

[Thermodynamics]

"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky; then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of being a butterfly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am a man?""

-Chuang Tzu

[JonnyBGood]

Thanks for that link to the encyclopaedia horn but you should really talk about what you think more.

As regards the "why do we sleep?" question I always found that sort of interesting. Maybe the "not sleeping" gene would be too complex to spontaneously evolve but that still leaves the question of why it happened in the first place beyond the basic "it prolongs life effectively".

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by horn

the theory put forward and the supporting evidence i would have linked too if i knew of an article, instead i took the time too copy from a book (mostly) for GD's interest and bennefit. I won't expect any thanks of-course
The evaluative points are mine, thought up last night when i did an essay on it and one just now.
I wil take solace in the fact you thought they were good enough too be printed in an encyclopaedia of-course (well i won't because being in an encylopaedia doesn't mean anything blablabla etc etc etc)

I actually only read the first line heh.

As for the sleeping issue, yeh it seems strange as too why it would evolve at all, not only that but take for instance dolphins that sleep for no more than a few seconds, this is too prevent being hit by debris in the water (at least that's what i'm told).... they also sleep with alternating hemispheres too allow motor control too the extent of being able too surface and breathe. If is extremely complex and dangerous for the animal. While a non-sleeping gene might be hard too evolve (ignoring the point you brought up about why sleep would have evolved in the first place) surely alternating hemispheric sleeping is even harder !
It probably wouldn't even need one particular gene (i know that probably wasn't what you were getting at), as sleep in different animals is already hugely varied in length, type of sleep etc you would think it could be "Phased out"

Well presuming the prior existence of a sleeping pattern I can imagine it'd be far easier to change this from one 8 hour period every 24 to a few seconds every twenty seconds for a period of time than to no sleep at all. I wouldn't be too sure though, where's giles when we finally need him

[1-X]

I can't find a good link for JW Dunne's 'An Experiment With Time', but he had some interesting ideas about how basically, if someone proves they dreamed a future event, with enough detail to rule out coincidence, what other explanation can there be other than dreams being a gateway to non-linear time?

So forget about lucid dreaming allowing you to fly and rape, try getting the lottery numbers instead

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by 1-X

I can't find a good link for JW Dunne's 'An Experiment With Time', but he had some interesting ideas about how basically, if someone proves they dreamed a future event, with enough detail to rule out coincidence, what other explanation can there be other than dreams being a gateway to non-linear time?

So forget about lucid dreaming allowing you to fly and rape, try getting the lottery numbers instead

I used to get deja vu disturbingly frequently about 3-5 years ago and when I stopped I could always remember dreaming these things. It was never too specific but it was enough to convince me I have dreamed this world into creation. Pretty cool isn't it?

[Weeks]

Dreams could predict the future by analysing all the information your brain (left brain anyway) doesn't normally analyse then coming up with a conclusion. It'd be similar to instinct.

[Deepflow]

everyone has deja vu, well an awful lot of people at least...

when you remember that you remember it though, how do you know that isn't a manufactured memory?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

everyone has deja vu, well an awful lot of people at least...

when you remember that you remember it though, how do you know that isn't a manufactured memory?

How on earth would I know that about anything I've done or thought without telling anyone

[HAL-9000]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I used to get deja vu disturbingly frequently about 3-5 years ago and when I stopped I could always remember dreaming these things. It was never too specific but it was enough to convince me I have dreamed this world into creation. Pretty cool isn't it?

Isn't there a theory where deja vu occurs when something gets stored into your long term memory before being stored in your short term memory - this slight gap being enough to convince you that you have felt or been in this situation before but not quite being able to know where?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by HAL-9000

Isn't there a theory where deja vu occurs when something gets stored into your long term memory before being stored in your short term memory - this slight gap being enough to convince you that you have felt or been in this situation before but not quite being able to know where?

There are theories for most things these days I think. I find my theory a much more comfortable metaphysical position to adopt though.

[Tomkat]

I had a dream last night where me, Ste, Dante, T&F, skiddy and a couple of others were moving into a house in London.

It was pretty weird. We started playing some football video game and then I became part of it and lost the game for my team because I'm not very good at football

Internet friends in dreams++++

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

There are theories for most things these days I think. I find my theory a much more comfortable metaphysical position to adopt though.

The deja vu theories about it being caused by one half of your brain catching up with the other, and so on, are bollocks and thought up by someone who's never actually experienced it before. I've had it on and off for the last 12 or so years and I sort of find it reassuring when I get it, as if I'm on the right track (but then I believe in some form of destiny/fate/etc anyway).

Sometimes it's just a sort of a picture or image, and sometimes it's more, like a small sequence of events, or thoughts that trigger thoughts that trigger other thoughts.

I've met someone who had really good deja vu. For example, she worked in a music store. She dreamed a guy came in, they talked, exchanged names, he asked for a guitar, and then left.

Anyway, the next day she was in the store, and the guy came in. She greeted him by name, took him to the guitar he wanted, and so on. Scared the hell out of him, really.


[/random story]

[Alessio]

Heh this morning I dreamt a tooth fell out of my mouth togheter with a handfull of needles that were supposed to keep my tooth inplace...

I don't really believe that can be some kind of vision or something

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Thanks for that link to the encyclopaedia horn but you should really talk about what you think more.

As regards the "why do we sleep?" question I always found that sort of interesting. Maybe the "not sleeping" gene would be too complex to spontaneously evolve but that still leaves the question of why it happened in the first place beyond the basic "it prolongs life effectively".

Your whole body is focussed on prolonging your life,
so it makes perfect sense if thats the only purpose of sleeping.

Personally I believe dreaming is a part of the sleepcycle to keep your brain from shutting down.
Since most organs need to be used on a constant basis to keep functioning properly.
Don't know if their are any scientific theories or researches about that.

[Alki]

waking up after a dream and remembering it, the timescale of your dream only seems to be a couple of hours max maybe even less. Fact of the matter is it lasts for hours on end strecthed out. Thats the thing that always got me

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Alessio

Your whole body is focussed on prolonging your life,
so it makes perfect sense if thats the only purpose of sleeping.

Personally I believe dreaming is a part of the sleepcycle to keep your brain from shutting down.
Since most organs need to be used on a constant basis to keep functioning properly.
Don't know if their are any scientific theories or researches about that.

Our mind needs a certain amount of rem sleep to avoid going insane or something. My point was about why lifeforms haven't evolved to not require sleep anymore. The competitive advantages offered by gaining an extra third of your life are immense.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The competitive advantages offered by gaining an extra third of your life are immense.

Well, no. Sleeping is safe - it involves going to a nice protected place away from dangerous enviornments and staying there for long periods of time. Animals dont normally get eaten by predators while they are sleeping or hibernating - they normally get attacked while (eg) looking for food or doing whatever other crazy things animals do every day. An organism that can survive while sleeping for 20 hours a day, or 10 months a year, has a huge survival advantage over one which has to spend most of its lifespan awake. The question isnt 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, do we sleep?' - its 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, are we ever awake?'.

[Alki]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I used to get deja vu disturbingly frequently about 3-5 years ago and when I stopped I could always remember dreaming these things. It was never too specific but it was enough to convince me I have dreamed this world into creation. Pretty cool isn't it?

im must deja vu at least twice a day, its rather scary, is it like 'have i seen this before? or have i dreamed it' rather does your head in to be honest.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Well, no. Sleeping is safe - it involves going to a nice protected place away from dangerous enviornments and staying there for long periods of time. Animals dont normally get eaten by predators while they are sleeping or hibernating - they normally get attacked while (eg) looking for food or doing whatever other crazy things animals do every day. An organism that can survive while sleeping for 20 hours a day, or 10 months a year, has a huge survival advantage over one which has to spend most of its lifespan awake. The question isnt 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, do we sleep?' - its 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, are we ever awake?'.

If you slept all the time you'd never pass on your genes. If you were awake all the time you could spend those extra hours impregnanting hot female badgers. Plus you could spend the extra time killing all the animals that do sleep.

[midge5]

I had a strange dream last night where I got banned from GD for a week after telling a really corny joke I woke up shivering and sweating in fear.

Recently though I seem to have had a lot of dreams where people have had a knife or sword put through either their hand or knee and into a table or wall thereby stopping them from moving.

Like someone else said though, my worst dreams have usually involved me being killed with the strangest one being shot by the Nazis after hiding in a bush as their tanks went down the road.

Originally Posted by Nodrog

A similar thing happens when I have dreams which I feel I've had before ('recurring dreams'). I dont know if true that I've actually had them before, or whether this is the first time I've had them and the feeling of similarity is just deja vu.

I've had this a few times. I can't actually remember the dreams anymore as it has been a few months since I have had that feeling though.

I've also managed a few lucid dreams this year. I've just been in the dream and suddenly thought, wait a second this couldn't happen in reaql life, I must be dreaming.

[Weeks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Our mind needs a certain amount of rem sleep to avoid going insane or something. My point was about why lifeforms haven't evolved to not require sleep anymore. The competitive advantages offered by gaining an extra third of your life are immense.

Thatcher obviously had a heads up on the evolutionary game. Although she has gone insane now. Perhaps a small price to pay for the joy that sacking all those miners gave. Who knows.

[1-X]

Originally Posted by midge5

I've also managed a few lucid dreams this year. I've just been in the dream and suddenly thought, wait a second this couldn't happen in reaql life, I must be dreaming.

last week I realised I was dreaming, told the person I was talking to in the dream that it was a dream, he didn't believe me, then I woke up, thought "ha I'm right" (except I only dreamed I woke up), and then went back to sleep to tell him that yes, it was a dream and I'd proved it. The giveaway was that the person had hair when nowadays he's bald. [/other people's boring dream #64738]

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Well, no. Sleeping is safe

It's also a great way of conserving energy (I think). If you're awake / moving around another third of the time you need a lot more food to stay alive. It's probably the norm for food to be relatively scarce, in evolutionary terms.

[Tomkat]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

The question isnt 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, do we sleep?' - its 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, are we ever awake?'.

While I'm not entirely sure I agree with this theory, I'd have thought the answer was obvious? To feed (we can't live forever while sleeping, we need some energy in the form of food and drink), and to procreate.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

It's also a great way of conserving energy (I think). If you're awake / moving around another third of the time you need a lot more food to stay alive. It's probably the norm for food to be relatively scarce, in evolutionary terms.

Well yeah but would it really take that full half as much time again to find the food you need for that amount of time? Even considering scarcity of resources you'd be hunting other creatures (presuming you're a carnivore randomly) who had to sleep eventually?

[Appocomaster]

Sleep is used to rest the body and let the subconcious process the sense data. You need time to feed and mate and shit, so that's why we only spend some time asleep.

I also have the recurring dream thing sometimes that people have mentioned. While I can't remember what's contained in them, I know that it's either a distorted real life place or (as far as I know) a fictional one that I move in.

[CjC]

A friend of mine suggested a way of figuring out vaguely what dreams are about, particularly recurring dreams. Simply, when you remember them, think of what you have experienced and sum up with words things you see or do etc.. Then, think of the first thing that a particular item from a dream means to you in real life.

Eg, I used to dream a lot about being stuck on a beach with the sea approaching at an alarming rate. Now, some might say that reminds them of sand. I thought of it as an endpoint, looking out to an endless void (I generally was looking out to the sea and couldnt get off the beach the other way) and rapidly running out of time to get away. This I interpreted as basically meaning I was feeling a bit stuck with life and time was running out - I needed to reach a higher point. Things have moved on in my life recently and unsurprisingly dreams involving beaches have ceased.

This all sounds a bit deep for a Wednesday but there u go.

[Alessio]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

The question isnt 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, do we sleep?' - its 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, are we ever awake?'.

Tree's and plants took that evolutionary path.

[All Systems Go]

I've only had one lucid dream where I knew I was awake. However, i can recall having a number of dreams where I can control what happens to a certain extent but I don't realise that I'm dreaming. It's kind of like playing a computer game and restarting from a save spot if you make a mistake.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Well, no. Sleeping is safe - it involves going to a nice protected place away from dangerous enviornments and staying there for long periods of time. Animals dont normally get eaten by predators while they are sleeping or hibernating - they normally get attacked while (eg) looking for food or doing whatever other crazy things animals do every day. An organism that can survive while sleeping for 20 hours a day, or 10 months a year, has a huge survival advantage over one which has to spend most of its lifespan awake. The question isnt 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, do we sleep?' - its 'why, from an evolutionary point of view, are we ever awake?'.

what utter crap.

saying that animals are safe while sleeping is as valid an idea as 'if i close my eyes i become invisible'