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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:27   #1
Dace
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General Knowledge

This is quite basic (science) stuff but my chemistry was always kinda weak and i cant remember.



1.) Is nitrogen flammable?

1.1) Is nitrogen non-flammable in all circumstances (eg at high/low pressure/temperatures)?

(i think nitrogen doesnt burn but want to be sure)



2.) By what method(s)* would you remove from air:

- nitrogen

- oxygen

- helium

- hydrogen


3.) Is ozone (ie O3) flammable?











*if you're lazy the name of the process will do (and i can go and find out about it) ... a link to a web page describing the process would be much appreciated tho
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:29   #2
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Re: General Knowledge

BTW this is an excellent opportunity for you Mark to boost your post count and look "intelligent".

Can you resist?!

Hopefully not.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:35   #3
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
2.) By what method(s)* would you remove from air:

- oxygen
FIRE!!!
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:36   #4
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Re: General Knowledge

American spelling dude .

Nitrogen is always non-flammable.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:39   #5
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Re: General Knowledge

<nodrog|away> inflammable = doesnt burn
<idimmu> nod
<Dace^> no it doesnt
<JC`> you are wrong nod
<JBG> inflammable means it does burn nod
<idimmu> dicktionary.com
<idimmu> says you're a
<idimmu> dick
<JBG> wrong like communism lol
<nodrog|away> well, whatever
<JBG> loss of internet ego
<JBG> priceless
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:42   #6
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
2.) By what method(s)* would you remove from air:
Fractional distillation
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:46   #7
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
FIRE!!!
And lots of it.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:49   #8
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Fractional distillation


To distill gases would you have to cool them then?

Also is there any other way to "distill" them?

(eg electolysis or whatever the "using electricity" method is called)
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:50   #9
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Re: General Knowledge

Electrolysis only works for seperating out the components of an ionic solution.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:55   #10
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Re: General Knowledge

So could you use electrolysis to seperate oxygen and hydrogen from water?

(Is that the method they plan to use when the "hydrogen [transport] age" ramps up?)

And can i have a definite response ... is there any other way to "distill" gases out like "i want"?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 20:56   #11
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Is that the method they plan to use when the "hydrogen [transport] age" ramps up?
Pretty much, and re the other question, the only way you can get helium in any amount is by cooling it out of the air.

Of course, when you're talking about fuel cells, (M)ethanol is something that's being looked into as well.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:03   #12
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Re: General Knowledge

ozone per se is of course not flammable since you can't oxidise oxygen (duh) but it can be used to oxidise (burn) other stuff.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:03   #13
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Re: General Knowledge

OK looking here i see that helium has a VERY low boiling point.

I assume this is why not alot of the stuff is produced each year (was randomly reading about it recently).

OK anyways can you tell me (the formula etc) for how much energry would be required to distill X amount of helium plsta (i'm guessing a **** load but if you could give me a ball park estimate* too i'd be greatful).








*eg enough electricity to power a town of 10k for a year etc or whatever *shrug*
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:04   #14
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Re: General Knowledge

God knows, power requirements don't matter in physics. That's engineering!
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:05   #15
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
ozone per se is of course not flammable since you can't oxidise oxygen (duh) but it can be used to oxidise (burn) other stuff.


So would an environment of ozone be more or less dangerous than one of O2?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:07   #16
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
God knows, power requirements don't matter in physics. That's engineering!


I thought it would be some enthalpy/entropy equation (with the triangles or whatever) which would make it chemistry (and chemistry i think i might have done in higher at that) which i thought you would have known.

If not ...

Does anybody (here) know the answer?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:08   #17
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
I thought it would be some enthalpy/entropy equation (with the triangles or whatever) which would make it chemistry (and chemistry i think i might have done in higher at that) which i thought you would have known.
You can work out the energy difference between room temperature (gas) and 4K (liquid) easily enough, it's just that, as the temp gets lower and lower, cooling mechanisms become more and more inefficient.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:10   #18
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
So would an environment of ozone be more or less dangerous than one of O2?
i don't think u can have a pure ozone environment since there is some sort of dynamic balance between O3 and O2 going on but my guess is that there won't be much of a difference.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:11   #19
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Re: General Knowledge

Also you wouldnt need to liquiside the Helium cause once you got cold enough to get everything else out you will be left with pure He gas.

Additionally that table misses out the somewhat relevant impact of pressure in the equation. They dont fractionally distil air at standard pressure...
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:18   #20
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Re: General Knowledge

oh, and ps:

Krypton, xenon, helium, and neon also separate from the other gases in the column but remain a mixture because the temperature of the column is not cold enough to liquefy these gases. If operators decide to recover these rare gases in the air-separation process and save them for future use, they withdraw the mixture of these gases from the column. They can then separate and purify the krypton, xenon, helium, and neon from the mixture. With the exception of helium, there is little commercial demand for these gases, so operators usually do not recover them. The majority of the world?s helium supply is recovered from natural gas by a similar distillation process.

From http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpag...fid=1741500785

Theres other possibly relevant little things (given I don't know the context that you need this info in) such as that most of the Helium used commercially doesn't come from air, it is seperated from Natural Gas in a similar process (but presumably cheaper)
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:22   #21
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Re: General Knowledge

Ta at0mic.c0w, Mark and Ebany.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:24   #22
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Re: General Knowledge

Additionally ...

If someone could tell me the cost of distilling a litre of oxygen from air i'd be greatful (i doubt it's something people would know but *shrug*).

Thanks.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:28   #23
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Re: General Knowledge

In this thread, everyone fails to notice Dace is building his own space rocket.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:34   #24
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
In this thread, everyone fails to notice Dace is building his own space rocket.



Shhhhhhhhhh it's a secret.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 21:54   #25
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
In this thread, everyone fails to notice Dace is building his own space rocket.
no worries. he doesn't have enough cahs to build one.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 22:08   #26
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
no worries. he doesn't have enough cahs to build one.
BLUE PETER ROCKET!
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:06   #27
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
So would an environment of ozone be more or less dangerous than one of O2?
in the context of danger to humans, an atmosphere of pure ozone would be deadly, since you can't breath the fcucking stuff
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:07   #28
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Re: General Knowledge

The only think you can 'breath' is oxygen so thats stating the obvious somewhat .
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:39   #29
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Exclamation Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
Nitrogen is always non-flammable.
Not always. Nitrogen will "burn" at sufficiently high temperatures and pressures. Various oxides of nitrogen are produced during lightening strikes and in internal combustion engines, for example.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:41   #30
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Not always. Nitrogen will "burn" at sufficiently high temperatures and pressures. Various oxides of nitrogen are produced during lightening strikes and in internal combustion engines, for example.
If it's an oxide wouldn't it be the oxygen that's burning? Or am I not getting it?
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:47   #31
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If it's an oxide wouldn't it be the oxygen that's burning? Or am I not getting it?
'Burning' is an exothermic oxidation reaction.

So no, the oxygen wouldn't be the thing that was burning.
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Unread 18 Jul 2004, 23:49   #32
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
'Burning' is an exothermic oxidation reaction.

So no, the oxygen wouldn't be the thing that was burning.
I didn't do chemistry
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Unread 19 Jul 2004, 00:01   #33
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Re: General Knowledge

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
The only think you can 'breath' is oxygen so thats stating the obvious somewhat .
yeah, but there's bound to be some idiot out there (probably here somewhere) who thinks "oh, ozone is O3, that means it's 1 more oxygen then normal oxygen. i wonder if that means it makes 1337 if you breath it in?" Just thought i'd point out that it kills you for that idiot
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Unread 19 Jul 2004, 11:28   #34
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Re: General Knowledge

Dace Is Making A Bomb
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