Troops storm Russian school

[meglamaniac]

A shitty, but not unsurprising (given Russia's track record) end to the crisis.
Except it's not over, there has been gunfire and explosions for the best part of 3 hours, and i don't like to think of how many hostages are dead this time.
Latest reports are that 250 are wounded. Previous Russian estimates of total hostages are look drasticly underestimated as freed hostages talk of up to 1,500 people being held - far above the previously reported 350.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624136.stm - latest events
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624024.stm - news story
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsa/n5ctrl/live/now1.ram - live coverage

[Rumad]

thats really shit

russians again show themselves to be devoid of any political abilities whatsoever.

[IncubusGod]

To be honest, a nation that delt with attacks on its troops by leveling Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, are hardly going to sit around and 'negotiate' for long.

Lets hope not too many kids paid the price for living in this region.

[CrashTester]

I like their take no shit attitude. How can you reason with people who take children hostage and have already killed? The chechen menace must be met full on.

[IncubusGod]

Menace? They wanted independance and russia rolled in with tank and all guns blazing. Wiped out towns, villages and scores of civilians.

If that had happened during the cold war (like it did in Hungary)then the world would have rallied around Chechnya, praising their thirst for independance from autocratic rule.

You go in a fk up a country with devout muslim ideals and this is what you get.
Didn't they learn from Afganistan?

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

I like their take no shit attitude. How can you reason with people who take children hostage and have already killed? The chechen menace must be met full on.

Your right. However, by taking children they are showing they have no emotion and they don't care about loosing there lives.

Surely if you know someone is there to die you handle it appropriately? Not go in all guns blazing?

[Ste]

Apparently what happened is some hostages tried to escape and got shot at so the military rushed in.
The hostages had been without food or water for 48 hours already. According to one correspondent they were drinking their own urine.
Not exactly a nice situation or one that they could afford to leave much longer.

They've actually mined the school so a lot of hostages are getting blown up as they're escaping.

The death toll doesn't seem too high at the moment. A lot of people are seriously injured of course.

At least it seems to have gone better than the notorious theatre incident not too far in the past.

EDIT 13 militants are on the run.
310 wounded.
the roof of the school has collapsed killing dozens more.

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally Posted by Ste

At least it seems to have gone better than the notorious theatre incident not too far in the past.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...211973,00.html

sure on that ?

[Ste]

The BBC says dozens of bodies in the gym...
129 out of 800 died in the theatre.

EDIT more than 400 hospitalised now.

[NEWSBOT3]

sky news says 100 dead, and knowing the russians its twice that at least

A 'large number of bodies' have been found in the siege school's burned out gym.
A Russian cameraman has estimated there were about 100 dead after commandos stormed the Russian siege school. And more than 300 are said to have been injured.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1090107.html?menu=

[meglamaniac]

My little BBC breaking news alert monitor just popped up saying "Reports of 100+ dead in Russian seige school gym. More soon."

This is looking worse than the theatre already...

[IncubusGod]

The russians seemed to lie about the numbers involved (as usual)

If it was in the 1500+ region, then there will be some serious casualties.

After all, there were "only 200~" people in the theater when it was siezed, which turned into 800+ later on when proper reports came out.

Crazy shit though. Can't really take it in :/

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

The chechen menace must be met full on.

Russia has followed pretty much that exact strategy for the last ten years and I dont' see much success.

[wu_trax]

there was hardly anything else the russians could have done, was there?
what else could they do? retreat from chechnya? free prisoners? they would have had another hostage situation within weeks.
the chechens on the other hand dont have much of a choice either. if they dont want to give up their goal the only possible method they have is terrorism, because they simply dont have the resources to face the russian army. they can only hope to cause enough chaos so that one day the public in russia just want to get out of there because its not worth it. the more cruel and evil their attacks are the better for their cause.

pretty ****ed up situation, just like in israel. im not trying to defend either side, thats just what the situation looks like to me.

[LHC]

I'm not sure how I'd deal with such barbarians. They should have left the rebels alive, captured them, and then let the children and their parents beat the shit out of them.

[Marilyn Manson]

As far as I'm aware, the Russians were reacting to events within the building.

Ultimately, if the terrorists were not prepared to negotiate an end to the situation - which I find highly unlikely - then the Russians had little choice other than going in.

[NEWSBOT3]

nice solution LHC, piss off more chechens so they do it again.

[KoeN]

we should have sent those russians troups to fight those al sadr guys.

[Rumad]

trouble is the russians always over react.

Sure there was gun fire and some explosions, but in such delicate situations I really doubt that storming the building is the best solution.

You always have a decent chance of talking these people out of there planned action. Storming in a unorganised way will alwyas lead to a bloody massacre.

I wouldn't like to be the commander in charge - how would you explain that to the people who lost there children?

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Rumad

Sure there was gun fire and some explosions, but in such delicate situations I really doubt that storming the building is the best solution.

What other possible solution could there have been? If the people inside had limited demands, then I would consider storming the place a serious overeaction. But as it is, I don't see any other way of ending it.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

What other possible solution could there have been? If the people inside had limited demands, then I would consider storming the place a serious overeaction. But as it is, I don't see any other way of ending it.

My thoughts exactly. Still, I wish there could have been a more successful outcome.

[roadrunner_0]

quite franly, from the reports so far, i dont think that the terrorists knew what they wanted very well, so it was pretty much bound to go this way sooner or later

[Ste]

More than 150 dead.

Ok, it is worse.

[meglamaniac]

Also, the majority of those will be kids.
This sucks.

Apparently they've got a few of the rebels holed up in a house, and others surrounded in the school basement. There are conflicting reports that some hostages are still being held.

Sucky.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

What other possible solution could there have been? If the people inside had limited demands, then I would consider storming the place a serious overeaction. But as it is, I don't see any other way of ending it.

Do you really think the russians had effective negotiators at the incident?

I doubt it very much. They went there to die and when someone is so hell bent on death sometimes the only thing you can do is talk.

Some had died in explosions, but I really don't think going in guns blazing is best policy. They would have done better pelting the building with sleeping gas. by the sounds of it the chechens there really wanted to die. You can tell that by the fact that they went to a open street battle

[CrashTester]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Russia has followed pretty much that exact strategy for the last ten years and I dont' see much success.

Chechnya isnt independant is it?

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

Chechnya isnt independant is it?

your title pretty much covers it

[Knight Theamion]

the checnia drama began when boris yeltsin ordered in a drunk mood to attack it full force.

what comes around goes around

[Event_Horizon]

Why doesn't Russia just give Chechnya their freedom and be done with it?
Sorry for the noob question but I do not know much about this issue...

[CrashTester]

and have another mad muslim nation? no thanks!

[Event_Horizon]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

and have another mad muslim nation? no thanks!

Well currently they are mad becuase they don't have their own nation. If given their own nation they will probably be muslim but not necessarily mad. I was looking for a more informed answer.

[Nondescript Human]

Chechnya is part of Russia and has been for centuries, that's why.

[Nondescript Human]

Also, giving Chechnya independence would be the stupidest thing the Russians could possibly do, as despite the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation remains a hotch-potch of regional identities, especially in southern/Muslim regions. Chechnyan independence would cause nationalism to rise in these areas and could potentially lead to the breakup of the Russian Federation.
Additionally, any capitulation now would vindicate the methods of Terrorists.
Finally, most Chechens don't desire independence, afaik.

[queball]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Also, giving Chechnya independence would be the stupidest thing the Russians could possibly do, as despite the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation remains a hotch-potch of regional identities, especially in southern/Muslim regions. Chechnyan independence would cause nationalism to rise in these areas and could potentially lead to the breakup of the Russian Federation.

So?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Event_Horizon

Why doesn't Russia just give Chechnya their freedom and be done with it?
Sorry for the noob question but I do not know much about this issue...

its called russian federation for a reason. if they give in now sooner or later the whole country will fall apart. that would make the middle east look like a stable region by comparison and noone could possibly want that (with all the nukes and stuff laying around).

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Finally, most Chechens don't desire independence, afaik.

What are you basing this on? Seriously, I've never seen any polls or surveys or anything on what the Chechens want.

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by queball

So?

Shocking as it may be, the leaders of Russia don't want Russia to collapse.

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

What are you basing this on? Seriously, I've never seen any polls or surveys or anything on what the Chechens want.

http://www.ceip.org/files/publicatio...00953dv01.html

August 2003 Poll: Do Chechens Want to Secede?

Chechnya should be part of Russia: 78%*
Chechnya should be independent: 19%

*Among the percentage of Chechens who think Chechnya should be part of Russia, 61% believe Chechnya should have more autonomy than any other part of the Russian Federation.

Original source: http://www.validata.ru/e_e/chechnya/

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Event_Horizon

Why doesn't Russia just give Chechnya their freedom and be done with it?
Sorry for the noob question but I do not know much about this issue...

Not much sure about the political position outside of this incident, but, if they give in to terrorists demands on this, terrorists all over the world will start storming schools.

Fact is, as soon as they went and they knew they would die, and so always a high death toll. All Special Forces could do is minimise deaths (though from what uve seen they fked up repeatedly).

[queball]

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Shocking as it may be, the leaders of Russia don't want Russia to collapse.

Why is that obvious? We seem to be happy enough with devolution in the UK when people feel they have seperate nationalities.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by queball

Why is that obvious? We seem to be happy enough with devolution in the UK when people feel they have seperate nationalities.

I thought we agreed that the nation-state was an outmoded paradigm


Or was that just me?


PS Ta NH


PPS You need a catchier nickname


(Note to self: Use less smilies)

[queball]

That brief is a pretty good explanation.


PS. The paradigm is an outmoded paradigm.

[JonnyBGood]

We need to revolutionise our lateral thinking from the ground up in order to better conceptualise the scenario from the correct supra-perspective. I'm disappointed you have failed to recognise this underlying truth qbll.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by CrashTester

Chechnya isnt independant is it?

No-one has any real political control in Chechnya. The Russian strategy up to this point has failed on every concievable level. It has not brought Chechnya stability and prosperity either as a part of The Russian Federation, or as an independent republic; furthermore, it has bred a culture of extremism and violence within Chechnya which has impacted to the most grave extent upon ordinary Russian lives.

Originally Posted by Nondescript Human

Also, giving Chechnya independence would be the stupidest thing the Russians could possibly do, as despite the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation remains a hotch-potch of regional identities,

I'm not sure what effect Chechnya going independent would have now.

Certainly, ten years ago, Russia (and the other former Soviet republics.) was much less stable, and there was a very real possiblity that if the Russians simply gave in to Chechen independence, then many of the other ethnically non-Russian areas might follow suit - which is why the Russians were so insistent about pursuing the conflict to destruction.

Now though, this is much less sure. The whole world can view what an inglorious mess Chechnya is at the present moment, and even if it did gain independence now, then it's hardly certain that any of the other, less integrated parts of Russia would immediately think that following the Chechen example would be a good thing.

Either way, Russia is more or less commited now, and it's fairly academic to speculate.

Originally Posted by queball

So?

You're either incredibly naive or you didn't think through what he said sufficently. Think something approximating the breakup of Yugoslavia, with all the attendent bloodshed, violence, and instability, but over a largely continental expanse. And then throw the possiblity of nuclear weapons into the equation.

Serious instability in Russia is not something that is desirable, on any level; possibly why the west has in the past turned such a political blind eye to the goings on in Checnhya.

[Nondescript Human]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

PPS You need a catchier nickname

I beg to differ

[Rids]

I support their tactics in this situation, where as I may not agree with the events that have placed them in this situation. They have always had a 'take no shit' attitude, and its heartening to see that they can continue to adopt this even given the horrific situation they were forced into.

[Kurashima]

Bodycount now in excess of 150 , injured toll well in excess of 600. Some terrorists still fighting and still with hostages. Total confusion with the news reporting that

• The whole thing happened because one of the terrorists accidentally dropped a bomb (why does that feel so AYB saying that?)
• Some kids escaped, the terrorists tried shooting them and then detonated all their bombs in a kneejerk reaction
• The Russians went in mob handed and had higher than expected casualties

BTW , regardless of the bodycount, Putin will ride this out, as this is precisely the ending he wanted, as it gives him an excuse now to absoloutely exterminate the Chechnyans.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

BTW , regardless of the bodycount, Putin will ride this out, as this is precisely the ending he wanted, as it gives him an excuse now to absoloutely exterminate the Chechnyans.

Unlikely. If anything this increases pressure on Putin to actually focus on a political solution to the problem rather than the largely military one which has been pursued up to this point.

If Putin had wanted a jusification to further brutalise the situation (Which foreign and internal opinion would be opposed to.) then he would have done it after the theatre debaclé or when Akhmad Kadyrov was assasinated, anyway.

[Smudge]

All people are saying that are Putin should be sacked / un elected as president

but who replaces him?

tbh he handled it awfully, and russia shld have withdrew from chec. several years ago, but no they dont.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Smudge

but who replaces him?

ZHIRINIOVSKY!