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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:15   #1
Vaio
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What a fag !

Enema to sue apple

What a complete fag !

Why doesn't he get his posse of homies together and biatch slap Jobs instead of going crying to THE MAN ?

What a fag

Vaio
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:19   #2
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Re: What a fag !

They should have asked.
I'd b pissed off if I was a musician and someone nicked my songs, expecially for commercial purposes.

Go Marshall
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:22   #3
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Re: What a fag !

He really is a fag. But hey, Oasis did something similar by suing one of the Army adverts for using Wonderwall I think.
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:25   #4
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Re: What a fag !

Thieves deserve to be punished.
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:33   #5
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
They should have asked.
I'd b pissed off if I was a musician and someone nicked my songs, expecially for commercial purposes.

Go Marshall
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:39   #6
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Re: What a fag !

How can you own a sound? (Or rather, how can you own anything?) I think it's disgusting to sue for something like this, but then again, I think it's disgusting with commercicals, so I guess im on nobodys side in this conflict or whatever.

But, it is kinda funny to see this "gangster" or whatever sue instead of breaking apple's arms with a lead pipe (I know, it would be hard, but hey! He's a G, rite?). OHBOY HE'S SO 'ARD
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:40   #7
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Re: What a fag !

in order to claim intellectual property rights, first he should have to prove he has an intellect
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Unread 18 May 2004, 23:55   #8
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Re: What a fag !

Good to see Eminen is keepin' it real.

word up.
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Unread 19 May 2004, 00:38   #9
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Re: What a fag !

i thought u didn't need permission to cover a song ?!
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Unread 19 May 2004, 00:51   #10
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Re: What a fag !

Guess what? You do now!
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Unread 19 May 2004, 00:56   #11
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Re: What a fag !

While I despise the "positive rights" that intellectual property seems to give, I have some sympathy for Eminem in this case.

I don't believe he has used any of his music in commercials, despite the fact he probably could have made tonnes and tonnes of cash out of it. If he retains this small amount of integrity it must be a bit galling when people use his songs on adverts. Having said that, I thought covers of songs were different (as atomic.cow said) but that might only apply to the notes, not the lyrics.

There was a similar case where Eels asked for legal action against (I think) a Spanish company who were using an Eels song without permission. Eels explicitly don't let their music be used in commercials (or didn't at one stage) so this sort of action was kind of annoying for them.

Having said that, if we had a decent legal system in place none of these legal cases would be possible. Conversely, Apple would not be able to complain when people "rip off" thier designs, etc.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 19 May 2004 at 01:05.
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Unread 19 May 2004, 01:04   #12
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Re: What a fag !

What, to blow up kitchens?!
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Unread 19 May 2004, 05:13   #13
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by at0mic.c0w
i thought u didn't need permission to cover a song ?!
The lyrics are still classed as intellectual property of the artist irrespective of who is singing it.

Also Eminem
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Unread 19 May 2004, 08:03   #14
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
sorry but all you people slagging eminem off are ****ing gay

if apple want us to pay for music, they ****ing well can too
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Unread 21 May 2004, 19:48   #15
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
They should have asked.
I'd b pissed off if I was a musician and someone nicked my songs, expecially for commercial purposes.

Go Marshall
When did he become a musician ?

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Unread 21 May 2004, 20:25   #16
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Re: What a fag !

Anyone who doesnt enjoy and appreciate the irony of Apple getting sued for intellectual property infringement is probably fairly unfamiliar with the company's history.
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Unread 21 May 2004, 20:31   #17
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
The lyrics are still classed as intellectual property of the artist irrespective of who is singing it.
O shit I'm about to commit copyright infringement!!




Yo, His palms are sweaty, knees weak, arms are heavy
There's vomit on his sweater already, mom's spaghetti
He's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready
To drop bombs, but he keeps on forgetting
What he wrote down, the whole crowd goes so loud
He opens his mouth, but the words won't come out
He's chokin, how everybody's chokin now
The clock's run out, time's up over, bloah!
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Oh, there goes Rabbit, he choked
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No, he won't have it , he knows his whole back city's ropes
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He knows that, but he's broke
He's so stacked that he knows
When he goes back to his mobile home, that's when it's
Back to the lab again yo
This whole rap city
He better go capture this moment and hope it don't pass him





Surely copyright, by definition, refes to the right to make copies of a piece of work. How can singing it, or writing down the lyrics, possibly constitute "making a copy"?
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Unread 21 May 2004, 23:23   #18
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What, to blow up kitchens?!


:lolerz:
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Unread 21 May 2004, 23:47   #19
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Anyone who doesnt enjoy and appreciate the irony of Apple getting sued for intellectual property infringement is probably fairly unfamiliar with the company's history.
Indeedy

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Unread 22 May 2004, 11:40   #20
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Re: What a fag !

Xerox is pleased
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Unread 22 May 2004, 13:32   #21
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Surely copyright, by definition, refes to the right to make copies of a piece of work. How can singing it, or writing down the lyrics, possibly constitute "making a copy"?
Are you saying it's only to copy the entirety of something, not its component parts?

Note : Obviously I don't find any of this copyright stuff to be legitimate anyway, but I'm interested which rights you think should be invented for non-physical property.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 16:56   #22
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Re: What a fag !

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Are you saying it's only to copy the entirety of something, not its component parts?
I think that the notion of a 'piece of work' is a very high level concept, that cannot be explained purely in terms of its physical space-time structure. As an analogy, if I represent an mp3 as a number, take the square root of this number, and then send it to someone with the instructions to 'square it', then I am not 'physically' sending him a copy of this song, although I am obviously 'actually' sending him a copy. If I translate a new book into French and start selling it, I cannot be said to have distributed 'copies' of said book, since every single word in my alledged 'copy' is different from those in the original. However, it still makes perfect conceptual sense to refer to what I have produced as being a 'copy'.

With this in mind, I would say that copyright applies to a song in a very holistic and abstract sense. A song 'is' not just the music which a human hears when it is plaiyng, since it 'is' also a number stored on a computer and a pattern of grooves upon a CD, and the copyright would extend to cover both of these. The key philosophical difference here would be one of object and representation, where the song itself is an conceptual 'object', which 'exists' as a concept independent of any particular physical representation of it. The number, the grooves and the positions of atoms in my brain all represent the same song, but they 'are' not 'the' song, since the song 'exists' as an abstract concept transcends these physical representations. In other words, the song 'is' the structure which all of these representations have in common. I would argue that the lyrics alone do not constitute a representation of a song in this way, since the experience of reading lyrics is not comparable to that of listening to them being sung as part of their song. A set of lyrics is not structually isomorphic to the song in the way that a CD or a peson singing it is. Perhaps we could argue that an artist should be able to copyright lyrics independently of any song in which they appear, in the same way that a poet can copyright a poem which he has produced.

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Unread 22 May 2004, 20:23   #23
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I would argue that the lyrics alone do not constitute a representation of a song in this way, since the experience of reading lyrics is not comparable to that of listening to them being sung as part of their song.
So are you saying that if I read a novel you've written (which you've "registered" to be copyright as a novel) and then decide to make a film based on it, I've not broken any copyright since watching a film is not comparable to reading a book?
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Unread 22 May 2004, 20:27   #24
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Re: What a fag !

Yeah, exactly. If you read the whole book line for line then I'd say you were committing copyright infringement, but not if your film was just based on it, or an adaption. Copyright protects a person's right to own a value that they have produced. If you make your own film you have created value for yourself, and youre welcome to profit from it.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 20:37   #25
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah, exactly. If you read the whole book line for line then I'd say you were committing copyright infringement, but not if your film was just based on it, or an adaption. Copyright protects a person's right to own a value that they have produced. If you make your own film you have created value for yourself, and youre welcome to profit from it.
That's assuming that people would see the film/read the book in a disconnected manner, the value judgement of one not affecting the other.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 20:44   #26
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Yeah, exactly. If you read the whole book line for line then I'd say you were committing copyright infringement, but not if your film was just based on it, or an adaption.
OK, that's fair enough.

Quote:
Copyright protects a person's right to own a value that they have produced.
Can you define what you mean by "value" here?

I mean surely adaptation "rights" (which seem to exist now, I'm not too sure) are part of an implied value of, say, Michael Crichton newest novel or similar. I presume you're using value in a different context though.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 21:23   #27
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Re: What a fag !

Can someone pls explain the purpose of intellectual property. Surely, as a 'democratic' system, we should give people freedom to do whatever the feck they want, provided it doesn't do anyone else any physical, mental or emotional (not monetary, especially not for rich guys like eminem) damage.

Feck, i'm turning into one of those lefty fools i used to laugh at.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 21:27   #28
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Re: What a fag !

the whole mp3 squared malarky, i've read that somewhere else.

you filthy copycat scum :O(
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Unread 22 May 2004, 21:30   #29
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Can you define what you mean by "value" here?
In this context, the creation of a product or service that someone else desires the use of to the extent they are willing to engage with you in trade in order to procure it.

Quote:
I mean surely adaptation "rights" (which seem to exist now, I'm not too sure) are part of an implied value of, say, Michael Crichton newest novel or similar.
No, I wouldnt say so. Perhaps theres money to be made from the movie, but I wouldnt say that the author of the book has any adaption 'rights' concerning who gets to make it. I assume that most readers would prefer to view the film version which the author has approved however.

On a sidenote, I think it would be possible to trademark individual characters in the way that Disney has done with Mickey Mouse (for instance). I confess that I havent thought any of this through in much detail and am more or less making it up on a post-by-post basis, but it seems sensible.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 21:41   #30
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
In this context, the creation of a product or service that someone else desires the use of to the extent they are willing to engage with you in trade in order to procure it.
But how do you mean "right to own a value" and what rights does ownership give with regards to intellectual items. I mean, with physical items the rights you have are fairly intuitive (or so it seems, I may be wrong here), but this is less true with non-physical items.

With regards to value, I'm not sure where it fits in. Obviously we're not guaranteeing a set value to any creator of intellectual property. If you write a novel and then I write a devestating criticism of it (in my #1 most popular website in the world ever) then (potentially) I have completley devestated the potential value of your novel. Yet I've done nothing wrong. But if I photocopy your novel and hand it out in Hyde Park (again, reducing the "value" of your novel) I'm a criminal, yes?
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Unread 22 May 2004, 21:52   #31
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
Can someone pls explain the purpose of intellectual property. Surely, as a 'democratic' system, we should give people freedom to do whatever the feck they want, provided it doesn't do anyone else any physical, mental or emotional (not monetary, especially not for rich guys like eminem) damage.
It can't really be adequately defended on philosophical grounds (as far as I can see) but there are practical arguments.

It's a bit like taxation. Taxation is basically extortion (in it's current form) but most people are willing to overlook this because of the common belief that it's necessary to maintain the current economic system. Similarly, copyright/patents/etc are unjustified restrictions on freedom but a lot of people can overlook this too, for similar reasons.

The only reason copyright restrictions have come into the spotlight is because it's become dramatically easier to ignore/avoid them. Imagine if taxes suddenly became easy to avoid overnight; there'd be similar reactions. Some people would call for an end to taxes (or change in the way they are levied), but most people would simply look to strengthen the law (or increase the level of punishment for those who break the law).

About a month ago one my house mates had a £20 voucher for Virgin Megastore. After trundling around the shop for half an hour looking at CD's/movies/games he came to the conclusion there was nothing he wanted. Every game he liked the look of could be downloaded; same with CD's and movies.

Clearly not everyone is at that stage yet, and there will always be physical products to purchase. But it's a fairly major problem for some pretty major economic players when 50% of their products have basically become unsellable (or had their values infringed, whatever).
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Unread 22 May 2004, 22:03   #32
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
But how do you mean "right to own a value" and what rights does ownership give with regards to intellectual items. I mean, with physical items the rights you have are fairly intuitive (or so it seems, I may be wrong here), but this is less true with non-physical items.
It's nothing more than a statement of property rights. Property rights occur as a result of the claim that people have a right to own any value which they have produced from nature. Physical matter is not intrinsically value - any value which it can be claimed to have is a result of the application of the human mind.. My computer is not worth $1000 because that is how much people are prepared to prepare for a 5kg block of silicon and sand (or because the 'labour costs' of producing one in a factory total $1000). The value that a computer has is purely a result of people's ideas, from the person who first produced the microchip up to companies such as microsoft today. Likewise 'land' has no value, only productive land (and land is only 'productive' because people have worked out how to make it so). Oil is only valuable because certain genuises throughtout history have developed productive applications for it. And so on.

The rights to what is today called 'intellectual property' follows the same logic. Before I write a book, the value which it represents did not exist. Noone is going to pay $10 for a few hundred sheets of paper - it is my ideas and my mind alone which has created the value of the product. Intellectual property laws simply serve to recognise that the value has been created by the person who came up with the idea, and allow him to profit from his work. Noone else has the automatic 'right' to this person's work without his consent, and it is a horrible caricature of 'freedom' to claim that this is the case.

On a sidenote, I dont think the term 'intellectual property' is at all meaningful. All property is 'intellectual property' in a sense, because its value has been created by human creativity and ingenuity, not by people bashing away at things with hammers in factories. A tree has very little value to anyone, but a nice wooden chest of drawers made from the same physical material has quite a lot.

Quote:
Obviously we're not guaranteeing a set value to any creator of intellectual property
No, of course not. The value of an item is determined by market forces - if you write a critique of the novel which causes it to lose value, then this would be an example of a market force. This is very different from you claiming that you somehow have the undeserved 'right' to the work of another, which is what you making and distributing copies of the book necessitates.

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 May 2004 at 22:28.
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Unread 22 May 2004, 22:18   #33
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It can't really be adequately defended on philosophical grounds (as far as I can see) but there are practical arguments.
.
I would make the opposite claim. The right to own 'intellectual property' seems to me far more solid than the right to own material goods. In a sense, it can be argued all material goods are 'scarce' - when I make a claim to a particular piece of land, I am denying everyone else the right to its use. When I say I own a TV, I am denying everyone else the right to use the natural resources which went into making it. Essentially, I am taking a part of the earth that existed before me, and independently of me, and saying "This is now mine, not yours".

Intellectual property is the opposite. Before I produce my song/computer game/book/whatever, it did not exist. My production of it can in almost be compared to creation ex nihilo - I have taken 'nothing', in the sense of natural resources, and produced something that has objective value. In no way has my creation limited the ability of others to use the earth's resources in the way that creating something material does - I havent simply transformed natural resources into something valuable, I have created value 'from nothing', and added it to the world. Even if you believe the bromide that "all property is theft", this cannot possibly be applied to 'intellectual property' - nothing existed beforehand to be 'stolen'. What I have produced seems to be 'mine' in a way that is far more definitive than any claim to own an independtly existing part of the earth.

In my opinion, the morality of material property ownership seems philosophically debateable, but intellectual property is rock solid.

Last edited by Nodrog; 22 May 2004 at 22:24.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 00:25   #34
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Noone else has the automatic 'right' to this person's work without his consent, and it is a horrible caricature of 'freedom' to claim that this is the case.
No-one has ever said they have a "right" over other people's works; such a claim would be nonsensical. You have it backwards. If you write a book and leave it in your top draw I clearly do not have the right to enter your home and take a copy (or the equivalent). But if you paint a mural on the outside of your house and then ask for £5 for everyone who looks at it then you must understand you have no right to enforce this on anyone.

To use the argument you are fond of with regards to drugs; if I have a .PDF of your "registered copyright" novel and I copy this to another machine in my house for my flat mate to read then you are saying armed men should be allowed to break down my door to stop me violating your freedoms in some bizarre abstract sense.

In summary, I don't see how these "associated rights" on intellectual property is anything more than a horrible "positive right" ; much like "the right not to be slandered" or similar.

Let's say I follow your "creation from nothing" argument. OK, so you write a book. It is now your property. Agreed. I cannot steal this book. I 100% agree. But then you are extending/inventing other rights for IP. There is no "right not to be copied" on physical objects. Copying is not stealing. Infingement is not stealing. I know you're not interested in the semantics, but what is the parallel "right" which applies to physical objects that you are extending to intellectual property?
Quote:
No, of course not. The value of an item is determined by market forces - if you write a critique of the novel which causes it to lose value, then this would be an example of a market force. This is very different from you claiming that you somehow have the undeserved 'right' to the work of another, which is what you making and distributing copies of the book necessitates.
If I photocopy your novel 8000 times it is very much a market force which has reduced it's value, no different from the critique. You are projecting imagined rights (which I've not seen any evidence/justification for) on intellectual property. You seem to be arguing from consequences; "wouldn't it be awful if creators weren't sufficiently rewarded for their efforts".

Again your use of the term "right" here is very backward. I am not claiming I have a right to your work. I am asserting the right to do with my computer equipment, photocopier, books, etc as I wish. If you do not wish me to read your novel you must be very careful with your methods of distribution. If you do not wish to see your mural then you must not allow it to be visible from my home. Etc.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 01:47   #35
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Re: What a fag !

You can't use a recognizable part of any song without permission, period. Just ask Vanilla Ice. :P

Oh and Apple's no stranger to being sued...they're currently under suit (unless they've settled) with the Beatles due to Apple Music being their label. Apple signed a contract 20 years ago with them stating they'd never go into the music business in order to keep permission to use the company name Apple...seems Apple forgot about that heh

Copyright infringement is based on consumer confusion (in part)...where people hear an eminem song and may be mislead into believing that Eminem is endorsing Apple, you have a suit.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 05:43   #36
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Re: What a fag !

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
To use the argument you are fond of with regards to drugs; if I have a .PDF of your "registered copyright" novel and I copy this to another machine in my house for my flat mate to read then you are saying armed men should be allowed to break down my door to stop me violating your freedoms in some bizarre abstract sense.
I'll reply to the rest of your post later, but Id like to point out that I do accept this, and I think that it is a proper thing for the government to do. However I wouldn't support a law where the average copyright offender received jail-time, since this punishment greatly exceeds the magnitude of the crime. As a comparasion, although I support laws outlawing theft, I would have very large moral objections to a government that wanted to execute theives or jail them for 10 years. In the case of you copying a single registered PDF file, I wouldnt say that the punishment should exceed the cost of the PDF plus $100 or so (cf: shoplifting), and it probably wouldnt be worth the government's time taking action.


On a completely unrelated note, I think I've changed my stance on the enforcement of drug laws, and I would be quite pleased if every police-force in the country tomorrow broke down the front doors of everyone suspected of consuming illegal drugs, and arrested them. The best way to get rid of stupid laws would probably be to actually start fully enforcing them.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 May 2004 at 06:01.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 10:27   #37
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
No-one has ever said they have a "right" over other people's works; such a claim would be nonsensical. You have it backwards. If you write a book and leave it in your top draw I clearly do not have the right to enter your home and take a copy (or the equivalent). But if you paint a mural on the outside of your house and then ask for £5 for everyone who looks at it then you must understand you have no right to enforce this on anyone.
And if I release a work into the public domain, I cannot demand £5 from everyone who copies it. That doesn't mean I don't generally want rights over my other creations, to create private installations, or ask for funding from local businesses or councils, or simply moral rights.
That people are not compensated for the positive externalities of keeping a nice house is a bad thing; we try to compensate through smiles and politeness, but the point is it'd be bothersome and difficult to account for everything.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 10:47   #38
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
That doesn't mean I don't generally want rights over my other creations, to create private installations, or ask for funding from local businesses or councils, or simply moral rights.
You can want what you like. And yeah, it's a reasonable expectation to be rewarded for your efforts. If I fall into poverty (or fall over in the street), I have some expectations that society in general (and the people I know in particular) will help me out.

But we don't enshrine expectations into criminal law, or at least we shouldn't.

I think people do have the "moral right" to be identified as the creator of a piece of work. I don't think this should be enforced through the law though. Similarly, I think people have the moral right to have assistance when they need it. We might "enforce" this through voluntary contracts (like insurance). But basically enforcing it through violence (which is what anything put into criminal law does) is immoral and in direct opposition to a liberty principle type analysis.

I guess the 'libertarian' dictum should be "You have the freedom to swing your arms unless you're violating the legally registered trademark of the Disney Corporation.".
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Unread 23 May 2004, 11:51   #39
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Re: What a fag !

The law does indeed reflect opinions in society. See marriage.
Nod-style libertarians argue that a violation of property is a violation of freedom. You can't just keep saying "liberty principle" and appealing to visceral interpretations of freedom. If I break into your house I have violated your rights. And property vs possession is just economic vs personal freedom again.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 12:13   #40
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Re: What a fag !

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They should have asked.
I'd b pissed off if I was a musician and someone nicked my songs, expecially for commercial purposes.

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Unread 23 May 2004, 12:13   #41
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
The law does indeed reflect opinions in society. See marriage.
Great example, since I'm sure you know I think the idea of marriage is funamentally broken. But yes, the law reflects the opinions of society, but shouldn't merely reflect expectations.
Quote:
Nod-style libertarians argue that a violation of property is a violation of freedom.
But I'm not sure how this is classed as a "violation". It is not a crime to do you economic harm. It is a crime to deny you certain rights or freedoms (which may or may not cause you economic harm).
Quote:
If I break into your house I have violated your rights. And property vs possession is just economic vs personal freedom again.
Not really. I'm not arguing property vs possession. I'm saying that the same rights should apply to intellectual property as does physical property.

I'm arguing for more economic freedom. I'm saying entrepeneurs should be able to sell copies of novels, DVDs, etc on market stalls without the fuzz coming and hassling them.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 14:21   #42
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Great example, since I'm sure you know I think the idea of marriage is funamentally broken. But yes, the law reflects the opinions of society, but shouldn't merely reflect expectations.
How churlish!
It shouldn't reflect expectations per se, but reflecting ideas about what constitutes property and creation seems a good idea. You have a functioning society with some ideas about public reason, and lawmakers look at market failures in relation to those ideas make "men with guns" laws, whatever the ideas might be. The piracy issue in a sense is that both sides are unreasonable - the ??AA could have been responsible, lowered prices, and reduced crime rates, but they decided to be obstinate and push the principle of IP, and now neither side is innocent.
Or with regards to Eminem, there is an argument in the article that use of the lyrics is bad because of ideas about endorsement. If the expectations seem somewhat justified, or reasonable, then looking at the expectations is a good starting point to see where the injustice is.
Quote:
But I'm not sure how this is classed as a "violation". It is not a crime to do you economic harm. It is a crime to deny you certain rights or freedoms (which may or may not cause you economic harm).
It is usually a crime to do economic harm. But laws work on rules rather than acts, so we have rights with various functions. And so laws that protect the technological imperative, to protect the arts. Rights and economics go hand in hand. They're harmonious, even.

Quote:
Not really. I'm not arguing property vs possession. I'm saying that the same rights should apply to intellectual property as does physical property.

I'm arguing for more economic freedom. I'm saying entrepeneurs should be able to sell copies of novels, DVDs, etc on market stalls without the fuzz coming and hassling them.
If I trample on your land and break up your stuff that's violating rights. And if a market seller undercuts Disney that's violating their rights. You're saying, hey, look at the physical consequence of one act of copying, the author hasn't been harmed. You're just giving the argument towards usufruct rights as far as I can see, so the comparison to possession vs property is valid.

The "room to swing your arms" thing is again misleading when taken literally. There are no simple conceptual limits on what can be rights and what can't.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 14:55   #43
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
It is usually a crime to do economic harm.
Not really. If I compete with your shop, I am (probably) doing you economic harm. If I run a better shop than you, I could feasibly drive you out of business and your family could be deprived food (if we didn't have a welfare state and so on). Yet this is not illegal.

The right-wing libertarians, as far as I can see, wish to have all other laws stem from some sort of first principles. People like David Friedman (from what I've read) explicitly say that even if redistributive taxation was economically efficient they'd still reject it because it's immoral (i.e. morality > consequences). Yet this issue is somehow different. The cynical Marxist attitude in me can't help but notice that when welfare is under discussion then let's abolish the coercive power of the state, yet when it's copyright it's give every policeman a machine gun and a search warrant.

I've no idea what your political philosophy is, so obviously i can't comment on you. If you're advocating all-round general pragmatism then yeah whatever really. Lots of things can be argued for on practical grounds.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 01:21   #44
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Re: What a fag !

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The cynical Marxist attitude in me


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Unread 24 May 2004, 03:04   #45
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Re: What a fag !

Yeah: the laws about shops can either protect against economic harm or protect comptetion and technology. Where these collide you get the occasional dilemma. There is some safety in that other shops have to get planning permission which is sometimes denied if there's already enough shops, and that franchises don't put shops too close together, and that kind of thing. That's worthwhile, because protection is valuable, it adds value to the shop, and if the reduced risk outweighs the harm done to potential shops, then everyone'll be better off, maybe. If you look at an existent copyright, it similarly looks like it's preferring technology over people's freedom to copy, but the fair use doctrine is still worthwhile.

As nod points out, a lot of things wouldn't be produced at all without copyright, so that freedom to copy is created by copyright as well as restricted by it. Without competition, there wouldn't be as much prosperity at all, so it seems ok to choose competition over the old shop owner's prosperity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I've no idea what your political philosophy is, so obviously i can't comment on you. If you're advocating all-round general pragmatism then yeah whatever really. Lots of things can be argued for on practical grounds.
Pragmatism applies where it's pragmatic. I'm reading this book atm. I'd say I'm roughly just against the idea that specific natural rights are always a good basis for argument. Like someone (you?) said, the Holocaust wasn't bad because it was a violation of rights, but because it was slaughtering people.

You're giving a specific conception of rights which I might call materialist. I don't despise that kind of thing, but I don't see how it's much different from people who argue it's wrong to kill a fetus, for example. An a priori argument just seems much more tenuous than the practical grounds, looking at details, that kind of thing (btw, it seems that RMS is quite anti-libertarian, and simply promotes copyright and patent reform). At most I'd agree that it'd be ideal if we could implement systems in the future that don't require copyright. Because, hey, it makes a lot of things simpler when you can transfer numbers without worrying about their social standing. But that's a long way off, almost SF. For the meantime I'm cool with the idea of copyright protecting the arts where nothing better is on offer. Also I wouldn't object to welfare on any intrinsic grounds anymore.

DDFr is generally positivist; he gives explanations and suggestions, not a set of principles.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 07:06   #46
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
As nod points out, a lot of things wouldn't be produced at all without copyright, so that freedom to copy is created by copyright as well as restricted by it.
That's an odd argument. If I write a novel it'd be odd to say I have increased your freedom by doing so, your freedom to read it! I call Isaiah Berlin on this; you appear to be talking about positive liberty.
Quote:
I'd say I'm roughly just against the dea that specific natural rights are always a good basis for argument. Like someone (you?) said, the Holocaust wasn't bad because it was a violation of rights, but because it was slaughtering people.
I'm not sure if I did say that, but if I did, it was nonsense. The Holocaust was bad because it was people being slaughtered, but people being slaughtered is bad because it's a denial of their rights. Why is slaughtering people bad? Obviously you don't need to explain that, it's a given. But a slaughter of ants, or rats, or bacteria would equally be a slaughter but wouldn't be bad because these things aren't normally assumed to have rights. You can phrase the question differently of course, but it seems the same sort of thing, or generally leads to highly dubious statements ("The holocaust was bad because it reduced economic output" or something). Natural rights aren't the end of the debate as I've said elsewhere, but they're usually a good start.
Quote:
An a priori argument just seems much more tenuous than the practical grounds, looking at details, that kind of thing
Practical (or tactical) arguments are all well and good but they never replace moral arguments. If I argue for abortion on the grounds it can reduce crime in the long-term (as less unwanted poor children are 'produced' or something) then I am still making a moral argument ; the rights of a fetus are less important than the potential rights of a victim of crime - or that fetuses don't enjoy any rights and as such shouldn't enter our moral calculation.

It's like the fox-hunting thing. You can argue about job-losses or the tradition of rural landowners but that's all irrelevent (I hope) if you think foxes are sentient beings who deserve rights. You cannot avoid taking a stand either way (as far as I can see), it's just whether you are open about it or not. Rights arguments at least make everything explicit.

Utilitarianism (which you seem to be advocating, indirectly) is all well and good, but seems to fall down on some fundamental issues. Like the one about "Is it right to murder one innocent man, if his organs can save 6 other innocent people". or something.
Quote:
(btw, it seems that RMS is quite anti-libertarian, and simply promotes copyright and patent reform).
Can you expand on this? I like the idea of the GPL, although essentially in the very long term I'd view it as unneccessary and restrictive as other licences. Mao said that revolutionary parties needed to effectively "replace" the state during a guerilla struggle by providing services to peasant communities. Stallman's approach seems to be similar; undermine copyright by replacing unfree software. That strikes me as the best long-term approach.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 13:58   #47
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Cool Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
That's an odd argument. If I write a novel it'd be odd to say I have increased your freedom by doing so, your freedom to read it! I call Isaiah Berlin on this; you appear to be talking about positive liberty.
Yes, positive liberty. If you write a book (or forums post?) you have increased my freedom. I wouldn't have the freedom to read that book otherwise. You're seeing it as a zero-sum game, you see.
Quote:
I'm not sure if I did say that, but if I did, it was nonsense. The Holocaust was bad because it was people being slaughtered, but people being slaughtered is bad because it's a denial of their rights. Why is slaughtering people bad? Obviously you don't need to explain that, it's a given. But a slaughter of ants, or rats, or bacteria would equally be a slaughter but wouldn't be bad because these things aren't normally assumed to have rights. You can phrase the question differently of course, but it seems the same sort of thing, or generally leads to highly dubious statements ("The holocaust was bad because it reduced economic output" or something). Natural rights aren't the end of the debate as I've said elsewhere, but they're usually a good start.
No, they aren't. They're misleading. That the Nazi state didn't overrule fundamental human rights doesn't mean we can't recognise right and wrong at all above some physical sense of liberty. I like to say u...ism as many times as possible, but I don't really need to pretend I have a u'ian argument here. It's more that different concerns are commeasurable.

Quote:
Practical (or tactical) arguments are all well and good but they never replace moral arguments. If I argue for abortion on the grounds it can reduce crime in the long-term (as less unwanted poor children are 'produced' or something) then I am still making a moral argument ; the rights of a fetus are less important than the potential rights of a victim of crime - or that fetuses don't enjoy any rights and as such shouldn't enter our moral calculation.

It's like the fox-hunting thing. You can argue about job-losses or the tradition of rural landowners but that's all irrelevent (I hope) if you think foxes are sentient beings who deserve rights. You cannot avoid taking a stand either way (as far as I can see), it's just whether you are open about it or not. Rights arguments at least make everything explicit.
But I don't think humans deserve rights from their innate being. :-/ I just think rights are sometimes a cool principle. In fact I now think the UN charter is actually quite good stuff.

I was thinking of making an SF story sometime where we colonise space and discover that for humanity to survive we need to economise as far as possible, and technological developments mean that slavery becomes not just economical but existentially necessary. Ie, it's a choice between surviving and dying, and that existential concerns come before transcendental concerns. It's just very important for me that people like Greg Egan can make a living from writing books, and I don't believe there is any other way to organise this atm apart from copyright. That still leaves me plenty of room to disagree about software patents or whatever, but while I can see that people going to prison for piracy is a horrible waste, I don't believe it is moral to pretend piracy doesn't hurt anyone.

Quote:
Utilitarianism (which you seem to be advocating, indirectly) is all well and good, but seems to fall down on some fundamental issues. Like the one about "Is it right to murder one innocent man, if his organs can save 6 other innocent people". or something.
Rule utilitarianism usually overcomes that, in particular, the doctor's creed of first do no harm. Think what a law that allowed a legal random killing of innocents would do; people would no longer have any kind of security over their lives, it would be a devastating loss of utility. But I wouldn't have any problem with a group of people missing different organs entering an arrangement where the one with the short straw saves the others' lives. </textbook>

Quote:
Can you expand on this? I like the idea of the GPL, although essentially in the very long term I'd view it as unneccessary and restrictive as other licences. Mao said that revolutionary parties needed to effectively "replace" the state during a guerilla struggle by providing services to peasant communities. Stallman's approach seems to be similar; undermine copyright by replacing unfree software. That strikes me as the best long-term approach.
Yeah, pretty much. And he talks about right and wrong, but isn't afraid to say it's about freedom in the flag-waving sense, ie, positive liberty. In his speeches he talks about how the main problem is that there's been a land-grab where legislators feel the need to apply the same rules to absolutely everything in the name of fairness, and that it's basically just a problem of mismanagement (well, corruption and so on) rather than any early 20th century style philosophical rift.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/rms-co...s-article.html perhaps.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 15:13   #48
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
But I don't think humans deserve rights from their innate being. :-/ I just think rights are sometimes a cool principle. In fact I now think the UN charter is actually quite good stuff.
Haven't got time for a proper reply, but do you mean the same UN which in their declaration says :
"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,"

Or "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Or "No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms."



p.s. I'll take death over (full-on) slavery thanks.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 15:45   #49
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Re: What a fag !

Hay guys like what if there was like no resources left or something and the only way we could be sure of living for really long time is by killing every other human being on the surface of the planet?



My question is, does this justify sodomy?
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Unread 24 May 2004, 17:24   #50
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Re: What a fag !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Haven't got time for a proper reply, but do you mean the same UN which in their declaration says :
"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,"

Or "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Or "No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms."

Yes, I think the right not to be a slave is something we should definitely respect for now. The UN charter is a reaction to WWII. When the UN charter says that recognising dignity and rights would be a nice foundation of freedom it is correct, and where it says we should be brotherly that's a good suggestion.
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