Widowmakers

[Jaret]

Oh my ... I just love em !!

They outpreform (own) the Pegasus and with all those uber efficient EMP ships around its "No Losses" vs. a "Total Masacre" of the enemy.

Forget about mesons against these monsters its just target practice.

Pegasus only do better vs. Vsharak, Pulsar, Corsair.
Against all other FI and against all Co the Widowmaker is superior ... and now don´t tell me about Pegasus ini ... when all enemies are stunned ... Ini doesn´t matter.

With Cathaar having those real nice, little monstrosities there is really no point in Terrans anymore, since most Cathaar ships are better (statwise) then most Terran ships (cept Wyvern maybe).

Your turn player 1 ... whats your opinion upon that argument of mine ?

[Sun_Tzu]

err...any decent player shouldn't be possible to max-cap on if you use widows, that's the main problem...

Also, pegs with demeters might not rock as much but pegs flacking demeters and killing fi/co? yupp, I do prefer pegs.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Jaret
... and now don´t tell me about Pegasus ini ... when all enemies are stunned ... Ini doesn´t matter.

Which means you'll be taking care of the same ships twice. With pegasi; you could have sent less beetles/spids/widows and still have no fleet losses. If Caths had pegs; peg+bw+pod might even be a viable fleet; widowmakers+bw+pod isn't viable due to init

EMP-res difference isn't much of a factor if you're roiding as cath imo, most co / cr (roaches/tula) ought to be frozen anyways.

Either way; Terran main strength isn't the pegasi in itself: its the demeter combined with the pegasi. With Cath; your main fleet will always be emp, and you will be sending in a ****load of shipclasses; so you will always be easier to defend against.

Widowmakers rock in theory. In real play; they suck. It all falls down to the question: 'What is this ship supposed to do?' , and I've yet to see a good answer regarding the WidowMaker

[Teh_Necro]

The Widowmaker is there to add casualties to your target, some cath actually want to kill, the widowmaker is a kill ship availble to cath.

Imo it performs this task incredibly well, thus is a valuable ship.

-Necro

[Toop]

I think I'll build a few. I can't stand the thought of not inflicting a single casualty in a round

[Aknot]

what about a bw,tula and widowmaker fleet? sounds great to me ;-)

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by Toop
I think I'll build a few. I can't stand the thought of not inflicting a single casualty in a round

Guardians > Widowmakers if you want to deal some damage.

imo at least

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by Aknot
what about a bw,tula and widowmaker fleet? sounds great to me ;-)

FR DE CR classes?

what wouldnt target it?

[Edit: Yes that is a rhetorical question]

you are sending units that people build defence against because of other races having pods in those classes - it would be a wast eof time tbh. The best Caths can do is limit it to 2 classes (FR & FI, FR & CO [roaches] or FR & CR [tarants], CR & BA [Guardians])

[hyfe]

Originally posted by Ultimate Newbie
FR DE CR classes?

what wouldnt target it?

[Edit: Yes that is a rhetorical question]

you are sending units that people build defence against because of other races having pods in those classes - it would be a wast eof time tbh. The best Caths can do is limit it to 2 classes (FR & FI, FR & CO [roaches] or FR & CR [tarants], CR & BA [Guardians])

I'd go with a FR/DE/CR fleet anyday over a FI/FR one (provided everything else was equal).
1. Vsharracks, spiders, beetles,pegasi,cutters are all built in great numbers. Avoiding these will make it *much* easier to hit alot of targets; espicially terran ones without wyverns and ziks who are "low" on FI
2. By including DE/CR in an FR fleet; you don't gain any targetting from any significant defense ships (some CO; but hey, thats what your black widows are for(except for roaches ofc))
3. An FR/CR which you mention doesn't get less targetted than an FR/DE/CR one.

The reason it won't work is though:
1. Widowmakers shoot after all FI have fired. Thereby giving your opposition a chance to mutilate your precious BW (which die like flies)

All in all: I don't think it would take too many stats changes before a FR/DE/CR fleet for caths would become workable...Switching to FI-killers instead of FI-freezers might go some way to reduce that irritating 'a little too much defense'; while your losses escalate each tick because you don't kill stuff, but they do ...

and yes; i considered doing FR/DE/CR fleet for hitting Terran targets last round,(so i could use Roaches for defense/FI+ a few bw for hitting xands) and pretend calced on alot of raids.. I found a few targets i could have hit ok; but there weren't many..

[MAdnRisKy]

A single alomst viable use for the widowmaker is against lowish harpie terrans with a lot of pegs.

The widows flak and stun and co and fr, the makers hit the harpies reducing losses for tick 2 and 3, without having to send enough beetles and roaches to stun both the terrans FI and DE

but only until syrens/wyvern come out, then it's really not worth it.

[hyfe]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy


but only until syrens/wyvern come out, then it's really not worth it.

Syrens can be taken care of by quite elegantly by Tulas though..

[Chax]

Originally posted by MAdnRisKy
A single alomst viable use for the widowmaker is against lowish harpie terrans with a lot of pegs.

The widows flak and stun and co and fr, the makers hit the harpies reducing losses for tick 2 and 3, without having to send enough beetles and roaches to stun both the terrans FI and DE

but only until syrens/wyvern come out, then it's really not worth it.

I have been saying the same since the maker changed targetting in the r8 beta. However as I am playing cath this round I have fould a flaw in the reasoning.

There is no way I will have cath destroyers before terrans have cruisers. It's also highly unlikely that I'll have them before terrans have their wyverns. Cath ships take a lot longer to get than terran ships. Terrans race like mad for DE class while caths normally concentrate on travel and scans after getting FR. Even if one did go for DE asap with cath the window of opportunity for using them against a terran is only a few days, days where lets face it roaches are rather much what you wanna build, not makers.

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by Chax
I have been saying the same since the maker changed targetting in the r8 beta. However as I am playing cath this round I have fould a flaw in the reasoning.

There is no way I will have cath destroyers before terrans have cruisers. It's also highly unlikely that I'll have them before terrans have their wyverns. Cath ships take a lot longer to get than terran ships. Terrans race like mad for DE class while caths normally concentrate on travel and scans after getting FR. Even if one did go for DE asap with cath the window of opportunity for using them against a terran is only a few days, days where lets face it roaches are rather much what you wanna build, not makers.

I steal your idea, then you tell me it's flawed.

AND YOU WAIT UNTIL I MAKE AN ARSE OF MYSELF?!?!

evil chax

Hyfe, yeah you can, but by that point, it's probably worth taking out the pegs and the harpies anyway, and like chax said by the time you have cr it's quite feasible they have wyverns anyway :/

Either way this may well be the first time I'm really quite wrong, still at least I can blame chax for it


I'm not wrong on the syrens though, and I don't care if my name looks suspiciously like nodrog

[hyfe]

Well.. alot of terrans stop the ship racing after having reached DE though... I know I did atleast; doing scans now, taking the occanonal mine etc... Got CR yesterday, but it'll be long before i bother with BS..

[MAdnRisKy]

Originally posted by hyfe
Well.. alot of terrans stop the ship racing after having reached DE though... I know I did atleast; doing scans now, taking the occanonal mine etc... Got CR yesterday, but it'll be long before i bother with BS..

so little access to scan planets and few roids to speak of, wonder which alliance you're part of

[Sun_Tzu]

well, I've allready used hydras for 1 defence call(uni, can you imagine!) and 2 attacks, so guess what did when I got to DE? ^^ BS coming along in a day or 3...

[Silva baby]

the whole point of cathaar is um
15% cath
all 3 ticks now?
widowmakers just screw that up!

[Jaret]

The point in widowmakers is ...

Cathaar roiding fleet: Beetle, roach, blackwidows, pods

designed for 15% roidcap and about 100% stunn.

Cathaar bash fleet : more Beetle, more Roach, more Blackwidows, Widowmakers

Both fleets have eta 8 in universe eta 7 in para/cluster.
Defense vs. those fleets would mostly be Fi and Co due to eta (ingaldef net included). However those Fi/Co defenders will think twice when they will loose some 1k ships per tick ... in addition to be stunned en mass.

Also Widowmakers are idea to kill Meson PDS.

[kyrealean]

Cath has no need to be killing people, thats what u use teamwork for..... as so many people just love doing anyway right?

get a Xan to do the killing, u freeze and thats that

Widowmakers are useless for Cath, no need to have them, waste of resources if u build them.

[stue]

Heh, well Widowmakers might be better than my pegs, but I dont fear them...i dont have anything they wud target anyway ;D
But i heard your spiders and beetles dont like my pegasus fire much...

0wned

[Alexan Drite]

We have fooled, bemused and corrupted the youth of the Terrans
by rearing them in principles and theories which are known to us
to be false although it is by us that they have been inculcated.

-Protocols of the Elders of Cathaar.

[Jaret]

Originally posted by stue
Heh, well Widowmakers might be better than my pegs, but I dont fear them...i dont have anything they wud target anyway ;D
But i heard your spiders and beetles dont like my pegasus fire much...

0wned

Only some ships from me needed to def vs. de only ... unlikely me gal will get de only incs ... poor m8ts of yours ... poor you ... fleetswapping is so simple and with low eta ... I even can counter you without fearing to be targeted by your pegs ... with black widows and widowmakers ... takes care of fi/co/fr ... your pegs won´t every hit them.

0wned

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally posted by Jaret
Only some ships from me needed to def vs. de only ... unlikely me gal will get de only incs ... poor m8ts of yours ... poor you ... fleetswapping is so simple and with low eta ... I even can counter you without fearing to be targeted by your pegs ... with black widows and widowmakers ... takes care of fi/co/fr ... your pegs won´t every hit them.

0wned

wyvern/hydra

counter-owned

[Jaret]

nope ... de def works vs. CR aswell ... you wouldn´t launch if you would loose your hydra for no roids ... since you got no pods in your fleet.

[-QS-]

Originally posted by hyfe
Widowmakers rock in theory. In real play; they suck.

me too.

The Widowmaker is

- less efficient compared to beetle
- provides a new ship class for you, which means more ships target you
- its bad init does not substitute beetles
- you ruin your cap when using widowmaker
- you already have ****loads of ships targetting FI/ CO
- defwise: eta-disadvantage

=> use the resources on better ships

[Soron]

Originally posted by -QS-
me too.

The Widowmaker is

- less efficient compared to beetle
- provides a new ship class for you, which means more ships target you
- its bad init does not substitute beetles
- you ruin your cap when using widowmaker
- you already have ****loads of ships targetting FI/ CO
- defwise: eta-disadvantage

=> use the resources on better ships

I agree...

i think WM is only good a scare factor and to draw away noob attacks...

[Jaret]

Originally posted by -QS-
me too.

The Widowmaker is

- less efficient compared to beetle
- provides a new ship class for you, which means more ships target you
- its bad init does not substitute beetles
- you ruin your cap when using widowmaker
- you already have ****loads of ships targetting FI/ CO
- defwise: eta-disadvantage

=> use the resources on better ships

True ... however in theory the Widowmaker is one of the best Fi/Co Killers in the game ... and beetle scares nobody and kills nothing.

Mesons are dust when hit by WM. The additional shipclass is not always an disadvantage and roidcap is only ruined if you don´t handle them right (ie 2nd fleet).

Overall I like them ... never was a friend of building only 2-3kinda ships ... for its boring ... and cathaar always leave targets with a bad ratio behind. Its war ... and in war you kill the enemy and not sedate him.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by Jaret
with black widows and widowmakers ... takes care of fi/co/fr ... your pegs won´t every hit them.

0wned

True, but the Pegs dont even need to hit them, as none of them fire on DE - wasted fleetscore.

[Urkki]

The only problem with building enough Widows to make a difference is, that you can't have enough EMP-power to stop even a single-fleet attack from capping full, and you become an easy target. Adding Guardians may deter FR-attacks, but again leaving even less EMP-ships.

So, adding WMs or Guardians to a Cath fleet will make that Cath a much more desirable target, so not recommended unless you can count on getting def...

Of course if you don't need to care about getting attacked yourself, and want to be able to kill when you attack, then WM is quite an ok choice, definitely better than big-eta Guardian.

But I have to say, Clipper-Rogue-Buccaneer combo kills in much more satisfactory manner, especially against a Cathaar with too many WMs and Guardians

[Sun_Tzu]

Originally posted by Jaret
True ... however in theory the Widowmaker is one of the best Fi/Co Killers in the game ... and beetle scares nobody and kills nothing.

Mesons are dust when hit by WM. The additional shipclass is not always an disadvantage and roidcap is only ruined if you don´t handle them right (ie 2nd fleet).

Overall I like them ... never was a friend of building only 2-3kinda ships ... for its boring ... and cathaar always leave targets with a bad ratio behind. Its war ... and in war you kill the enemy and not sedate him.

using 2 fleets to attack this early is just a waste of fleets imho, I'd rather take 2 targets and have better fleets, and in the end you might like them, but they are not the best way to go.

And I'd still 0wn your ass 8 days a week with my pegs/dems/hydras army :/ (wyverns coming along in 2days time, blaat)

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally posted by Sun_Tzu
And I'd still 0wn your ass 8 days a week with my pegs/dems/hydras army :/ (wyverns coming along in 2days time, blaat)

i like my navy more - 2000 harpies, 200 Chimera, 50 apods.



hey, i've only jsut started...

[pyromanic]

WM are a self defence ship.

-Cathaar not so fluffy now

-The extra class is an advantage when defending

- Sure beats any equalivant pds



Yes if you always get defence on time because you never sleep and yer perfect then its not needed and it is a waste to build killers in an emp fleet.
But otherwise a few killing ships adds a nice lethal edge to my fleet that helps to complicate matters and yes deter anyone looking for easy targets which Cathaar are classicly seen as.

[Kåre Willoch]

THE CHIMERA OWNZ JOOO ALL

Ah yes it does, I'm amazed when I scan the cath planets, they hardly seem to have black widows anymore. A pure chimera fleet of half to 1/3 of their score sends them fleeing from their planet. Gotta say I love it.

And those that say only the big ships are good for terrans : LOL

A few pegs so you have 1 peg roiding fleet and 2 chimera roiding fleets that doubles as very good self-defense when not out - is way better than messing around with cr/ba. Not to mention the time-saving of sending just FR, roiding = too easy.
(/me remembers the fun but time consuming work of being zik last round)

Stat-monkeys, go ahead and flame me, then try putting a mix of big ships up against a pure chim fleet. Don't bother putting in harpys to screw up the chim, for lets face it, terrans don't build harpies, except maybe at the top of the food chain..

[Sun_Tzu]

all terrans build harpys, it's for defence, o/c.

Though I know what you mean, a chim-heavy terran can be pretty nasty with a de-fleet, but then again I had a serious problem finding cathaar-targets this round so wether they build bw's or roaches never really mathered to me :/
Now put pure chims up against xandas or zikos :/ Or for that mather terrans with a serious hydra/wyvern capacity :/

[-QS-]

Originally posted by Kåre Willoch
THE CHIMERA OWNZ JOOO ALL

Ah yes it does, I'm amazed when I scan the cath planets, they hardly seem to have black widows anymore. A pure chimera fleet of half to 1/3 of their score sends them fleeing from their planet. Gotta say I love it.

And those that say only the big ships are good for terrans : LOL

A few pegs so you have 1 peg roiding fleet and 2 chimera roiding fleets that doubles as very good self-defense when not out - is way better than messing around with cr/ba. Not to mention the time-saving of sending just FR, roiding = too easy.
(/me remembers the fun but time consuming work of being zik last round)

Stat-monkeys, go ahead and flame me, then try putting a mix of big ships up against a pure chim fleet. Don't bother putting in harpys to screw up the chim, for lets face it, terrans don't build harpies, except maybe at the top of the food chain..

u only need 0.67 BW to stop a chimera ^^

[Urkki]

The single most annoying thing about WM is this:

I have to send Clippers with my Rogues when I go WM-hunting to get through the Roaches and Tullas (since I'm not specializing in stealers, so I don't have that many Rogues). And then unless target has very many WM, they tend to die from clippers, so I cap only 1 or two ticks of them!

My only consolation is that Rogues also cap BWs

[spectrum]

widowmakers are crap. far to easy to flak against with a small bunch of corsair. the corsair even die less from them + absorb more wasted gunpower than against pegs.
the corsair beeing stunned isnt that much important in that case.

[beefeb]

I think you missed his point, the beetles/scorps stop the corsairs or equivalent. This is a job they are both VERY good at, better than any other, then the WM's steam in and punish you for trying it on.

They give the cathaars a little of that scary factor that they previously lacked, lets face it, previous rounds attacking a cat was a case of oh well, he foze me, oh dear, i lost nil ships, but now we cats get to freeze you up then make you think twice about coming back for more.

Then, throw in a handful of gaurdian against chims....which kill on average 5 per tick each, then you have a nice little bad boy fleet. Not counting your stunners of course.