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1 Aug 2017, 05:09
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#51
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit
I wish I could like TG, but I can't. They claim to be secure, but don't encrypt chats by default, can't encrypt group chats at all and when they do encrypt, it's all home-grown crypto. It's terrible. Worse, it could have (should have) been good.
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I may be missing the big picture here or maybe I'm just not that bothered by it at a personal level but WHY does an online game chat NEED end to end encryption? I don't get why this is suddenly a part of criteria for picking a platform. Does IRC have end to end encryption? Last I checked it doesn't and we (some people) happily chat through it?
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1 Aug 2017, 10:56
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#52
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Hole in the ground
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 169
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
I may be missing the big picture here or maybe I'm just not that bothered by it at a personal level but WHY does an online game chat NEED end to end encryption?
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It doesn't. I didn't bother to mention that Discord doesn't have it. Or Slack. My problem with Telegram is that one of their main selling points is that they're "private". Slack and Discord don't have e2e either, but they make no such claim.
So yeah, my problem with TG is more philosophical than technical. But there's still no way in hell I'm using it or going to in any way encourage others to do so.
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1 Aug 2017, 14:45
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#53
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
I wouldn't believe the media hype. Telegram were one of the first publicised by media to offer encrypted communication. They never mentioned end to end by default, they just said that communication runs through server to client encryption via their mtproto library and then specific client to client encryption through their secret chats.
Theres a nice discussion on the subjects in their faq https://core.telegram.org/techfaq#q-...nsert-solution
Last edited by Munkee; 1 Aug 2017 at 14:50.
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1 Aug 2017, 15:12
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#54
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: No more IRC
Pit is correct. Flawed security is worse than having no security at all.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Aug 2017, 15:53
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#55
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 55
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Re: No more IRC
I'm a little baffled, who is it exactly that is supposed to be interested in reading out chats about a browser based game? We aren't exactly working with security clearance stuff here... Not even a valid criteria in my eyes.
I understand however that change can be hard, especially with a vocal deep rooted minority which makes any transition to an IRC alternative more challenging than the derived benefits in the short-term.
Thus a transition is unlikely and probably not worth further discussion, especially considering every round of PA is played like it is one of its last!
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1 Aug 2017, 15:55
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#56
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Hole in the ground
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 169
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
I wouldn't believe the media hype. Telegram were one of the first publicised by media to offer encrypted communication.
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So you're saying they're great because of media hype, but I shouldn't believe it?
c2s encryption has been on most services for a long time. The "media hype" claiming TG was special was because TG devs pushed it as a major selling point. The first point on their front page "Why switch to Telegram" says "Private - Telegram messages are heavily encrypted and can self-destruct.".
They don't loudly say e2e encrypted everywhere, but they make a lot of claims about privacy/security that are based on "secret chats". "Secret chats" are still not enabled by default and are not available for group chats.
Note that Whatsapp is all e2e now, including groups, and has been for a while. And they're owned by Facebook. And that's using published, open algorithms that TG could adopt if they wanted.
I've read their FAQ, and advanced FAQ, many times. Because I want to like it. But it's bad. I think more through incompetence than ill intent, but it's still bad.
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1 Aug 2017, 15:57
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#57
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Hole in the ground
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 169
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukey
I'm a little baffled, who is it exactly that is supposed to be interested in reading out chats about a browser based game? We aren't exactly working with security clearance stuff here... Not even a valid criteria in my eyes.
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Please read the thread before posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit
It doesn't. I didn't bother to mention that Discord doesn't have it. Or Slack. My problem with Telegram is that one of their main selling points is that they're "private". Slack and Discord don't have e2e either, but they make no such claim.
So yeah, my problem with TG is more philosophical than technical. But there's still no way in hell I'm using it or going to in any way encourage others to do so.
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1 Aug 2017, 17:49
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 55
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pit
Please read the thread before posting.
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I read the thread, please post your aggressive valueless comments elsewhere.
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1 Aug 2017, 18:08
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#59
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: No more IRC
Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:
The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.
I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Aug 2017, 18:31
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#60
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:
The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.
I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
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You saying that telegram is misleading people to belive its secure, aint that you misleading people that any conversation in whatever program on the internet is secure?
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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1 Aug 2017, 19:21
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 55
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Lukey, your question had already been answered, twice, both by Pit and by me. Here it is a third time, phrased in yet another different way:
The problem is not that Telegram is insecure. The problem is that it misleads people into believing it's secure. The emphasis is on the misleading, not on the insecurity. When people think they're talking securely, they might say all kinds of things that really should remain secret.
I'm going to repeat that, to ensure no one is going to argue "but who cares about whether conversations about PA are secure or not?". Telegram is not bad because it's insecure; it's not bad because PA conversations must at all times remain secure; it's bad because it makes people believe their chats are secure when in reality they aren't. This lie might lead them to talk about other things that should remain private.
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I understand the point Mz, but I don't see the relevance or concern.
What on earth are people talking about that they need to worry about it being secure? What sort of insidious weirdos do we think exist in the PA community? If anyone is talking about anything suitably nefarious to be concerned, I'd happily see their downfall. The whole security issue seems irrelevant to the entire thread.
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1 Aug 2017, 21:09
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#62
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
You saying that telegram is misleading people to belive its secure, aint that you misleading people that any conversation in whatever program on the internet is secure?
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Decades of computer security has taught us which approaches and guidelines work well to create secure systems, and Telegram has ignored them. If you want to learn more about cryptography and computer security, then there are plenty of courses and books available. It's beyond the scope of what I can reasonably fit in a forum post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukey
I understand the point Mz, but I don't see the relevance or concern.
What on earth are people talking about that they need to worry about it being secure? What sort of insidious weirdos do we think exist in the PA community? If anyone is talking about anything suitably nefarious to be concerned, I'd happily see their downfall. The whole security issue seems irrelevant to the entire thread.
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I'm sorry, but I've run out of ways to explain it.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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1 Aug 2017, 23:34
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#63
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Decades of computer security has taught us which approaches and guidelines work well to create secure systems, and Telegram has ignored them. If you want to learn more about cryptography and computer security, then there are plenty of courses and books available. It's beyond the scope of what I can reasonably fit in a forum post.
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No.
What people might not think is that information in any of your discussions might be hacked even if its in a private channel/message or in a public channel, if your using telegram opposed to what ever other options u got. What ever ecryption IRC/WA/whatever is using, its prolly allready been cracked a long long time ago.
The security of any system is as secure as the weakest link.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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1 Aug 2017, 23:42
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#64
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Bi-Winning
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: nfi
Posts: 290
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I'm sorry, but I've run out of ways to explain it.
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How about the longevity game, advertising you're secure will lead to people testing as such and once they inevitably find that insecurity the games over and so is your platform.
Moving from IRC to any of these platforms is fraught with potential disasters and the true fact is that regardless of UX IRC has always been a stable platform and just works, i don't feel that the community will settle on any new platform especially not when the driving forces behind the game are pretty much dinosaurs, if they see no need to use social media to promote the game i hardly think they'll be willing to move their social crowd (sorry thats what #planetarion is, it isn't a business because they see no profit from their work so they do whatever the hell they want regardless of wether it benefits the game) to another platform.
The community clearly wants change in this (if this aint obvious go play the damn game and realize no galaxy uses irc) to keep with the times but you will receive absolutely no input from anyone from the PA admin team, hell id be impressed if anyone of them even noticed anything anyone has ever said on the forums even though they try to force people to use it by offering ingame incentives... prolly just to justify the spend on this vbulletin nonsense license they have.
I guess this thread like most is just pissing in the wind.
__________________
ѵսȽցΛґ
H-A ☆ ODDR ☆ Apprime ☆ xVx ☆ VisioN ☆ HEROES ☆ Ultores
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2 Aug 2017, 03:10
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#65
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Have D|ck Done Travell
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 491
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr
The community clearly wants change in this (if this aint obvious go play the damn game and realize no galaxy uses irc)
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discord seems nice, I like IRC, but yeah its a pain in the ass getting a gal which uses irc
did not TFD have a desktop icon which turned red when they had incoming ? I think i heard tell of that back then, but yes the present common communication methods would be some form of social media, if we as a community wish to grow, re attract old players we should visit some form of commonplace current communication method.
2 cents
__________________
www.planetarion.com
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2 Aug 2017, 08:20
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#66
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
Maybe we need a vote - start a movement and see if it gains any traction. If not, its no skin off my back and if it works then we can all hail lukey for his initial post.
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2 Aug 2017, 08:42
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#67
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
Maybe we need a vote - start a movement and see if it gains any traction. If not, its no skin off my back and if it works then we can all hail lukey for his initial post.
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Half the universe is swearing to WA, or worse slack, for no reason what so fcking ever, whats the odds u would get that half and the other half thats currently using TG to move discord or any other program
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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2 Aug 2017, 09:13
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#68
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: No more IRC
IF this was going to happen (which it isn't) the PA team would need to endorse/link/support said client on the game pages.
Currently if you are new/returning the game tells you to use iRC to join PAs official channels. All its Support network is on iRC.
Appoco isnt gonna shaft the iRC staff who provide support and move. It's been too long now.
The best you can hope for is that the alliances (probably in #alliances, decide on a communal app and push it as one team across PA. It's between TG and Discord. It's a bit of a toss up, personally I prefer TG. I know munkee prefers discord but if it was actually discussed and a consensus was accepted or even if it was narrowed down to 2 app from the current 4-5 that would be a good start.
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2 Aug 2017, 11:45
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#69
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
What people might not think is that information in any of your discussions might be hacked even if its in a private channel/message or in a public channel, if your using telegram opposed to what ever other options u got. What ever ecryption IRC/WA/whatever is using, its prolly allready been cracked a long long time ago.
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What do you base that opinion on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr
How about the longevity game, advertising you're secure will lead to people testing as such and once they inevitably find that insecurity the games over and so is your platform.
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And yet, Telegram is still here. Turns out convincing people to use the right thing and use it correctly is even harder than designing and implementing the actual security itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vuLgAr
I guess this thread like most is just pissing in the wind.
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Yeah, I posted something like that earlier on, but apparently it got deleted. The community can't even agree which of the 5 platforms to use. Even if PA Team did pick one of them, and came up with a comprehensive and well thought out plan to move to one of them, you only need to look at this thread to see how unwilling people are to consider switching to a platform they are not already using.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 2 Aug 2017 at 11:52.
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2 Aug 2017, 12:54
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#70
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
I know munkee prefers discord but if it was actually discussed and a consensus was accepted or even if it was narrowed down to 2 app from the current 4-5 that would be a good start.
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Fake news. I prefer telegram but I like to remain neutral and I can see discord is popular in other gaming communities
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9 Aug 2017, 21:09
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#72
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
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For those who dont want to leave irc:
#tgrelay has been set up.
Happy for someone to host that stuff though I have little interest in running it forever but Jintao asked kindly.. and needs someone to make stats apparently!
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10 Aug 2017, 03:05
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#73
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: No more IRC
Now i expect LuckeyLove to push ND away from that asocial slack sh*t and back to TG/IRC so ND members can mingle aswell.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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10 Aug 2017, 03:28
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#74
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Dictator
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 634
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Re: No more IRC
We currently have 200 people in the group. Thanks to those for joining and sharing it's been great to see so many people interacting again. Unreal how disconnected the community had been
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11 Aug 2017, 21:35
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#75
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 25
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Re: No more IRC
Its great to see the community coming together again. IRC is too old and has been left behind. Soo many other, better options are available for online communications now.
Munkee has done great with the Telegram #planetarion channel. 202 members currently in it as I type this.
PA Team should be doing more... but that's asking too much.
I think the round 73 EoRC on IRC should be boycotted. Not just for the fact it takes place in 1998 every year but also for the fact that the questions asked are so far out of touch with what actually happens during the round.
Place your bets now if we will ever see a Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, WhatsApp logo on the Planetarion homepage for advertising purposes? Getting more people into the game? Getting more upgraded planets?... Ill give people long odds...
__________________
Damakles - p3nguins
Ex-Ministry, Ascendancy, CT
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1 Sep 2017, 21:07
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#76
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Sexeh!!!
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 64
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Re: No more IRC
You know what the fun thing about IRC is ? That you can chat in public rooms with your enemies or friends. Having some good discussions, or just talk some bullshit about random stuff. It was a nice community with lots of different kind of people. But it's dead, barely people are talking and well the 'feeling' is gone.
Now it is like you join an alliance/galaxy, you will be added to some stupid phone groupchat with people with real names and the only thing happens is that you talk about the ****ing game Planetarion.. you dont really get to know eachother, you are just saving your own planet and that's it.
and I understand that playing the game makes it a lot easier, but the reason why we all started playing Planetarion and kept playing for so long is because of the friends you made (on IRC) and the random fun you had on IRC and in my opinion the funniest and greatest moments have been on IRC.
__________________
Round 68 - Rank 2 - Ultores (ETD)
Round 81 - Rank 1 - Ultores (ETD)
Round 84 - Rank 2 - Ultores (TER)
Round 85 - Rank 2 - Ultores (XAN)
Hydra Omen Ultores Zero Tolerance
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2 Sep 2017, 12:27
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#77
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: No more IRC
I don't recognise any of the people in the WhatsApp groups that I join until I've had the time to replace their real names/numbers with their IRC nicks. (It's surprising how many people called Charles* I've "discovered" over the last few rounds).
* I picked that because it happens to be my name also.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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15 Oct 2017, 20:38
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia Beach, Virginia USA
Posts: 62
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Re: No more IRC
Lukey is consistent, you cant be in his gal if you dont use TG
Information You are being exiled! Sun, 15 Oct 19:03:11 Mark Unread Delete
Your GC has started a vote to exile your planet. If at least two of the ministers vote for it, your planet will be teleported to a different galaxy. Your GC supplied the following explanation for their decision to exile you:
Looking for active TG player, enjoy the round.
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15 Oct 2017, 21:23
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#79
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North
Posts: 227
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie
Lukey is consistent, you cant be in his gal if you dont use TG
Information You are being exiled! Sun, 15 Oct 19:03:11 Mark Unread Delete
Your GC has started a vote to exile your planet. If at least two of the ministers vote for it, your planet will be teleported to a different galaxy. Your GC supplied the following explanation for their decision to exile you:
Looking for active TG player, enjoy the round.
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Funny, i exile out of gals that use TG! 😂
__________________
Memento mori !
VisioN Forever!
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15 Oct 2017, 23:22
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#80
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: No more IRC
bring back private gals problem solved
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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16 Oct 2017, 07:34
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#81
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Forever VisioN
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 142
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Re: No more IRC
the Mercs prefer IRC users
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19 Oct 2017, 00:39
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#82
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Blackpool, England
Posts: 68
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Re: No more IRC
IRC is what made ps grow in the good old days. Slack, WA, TG, Discord etc is what's killing it as the pa community becomes more de-centralised.
Yes, I'm a dinasaur
__________________
Played every round since r2. RB/Fury/Eclipse/Kralizec/MISTU/Angels/Urwins/Jenova/VisioN/audentes/xVx/Osiris/apprime/FaNG/Ultores/p3n/Mercenaries/ZT/ND
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20 Nov 2017, 08:33
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 936
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Re: No more IRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
For an example KittenZ have a load of players that have never used IRC, and will never use it....... They use Discord which relays between IRC/Discord/TG etc. But they also use discord for their other games and their mobile phone as well as main PC (if they even have one)
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I agree to your points fully, but where on earth did u get this part?
dark-storm server for (tc + ss)
netgamers server for (dom + spm + bd + pa)
__________________
If the opponent resists, CaRnage there will be!
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26 Apr 2018, 21:29
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 936
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Re: No more IRC
The link to a no power trip version of a PA channel on TG: https://t.me/joinchat/HnGU40LFqY0dojVXVuPrlg
__________________
If the opponent resists, CaRnage there will be!
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27 Apr 2018, 09:52
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#85
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: No more IRC
lol
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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