Planetarion Forums

Shyne · 13 Nov 2006, 18:43

I did a quick search, and didn't find a thread on this but I'm sure its been discussed before.

Why not show an approximation of alliance value in the rankings? It would certainly be interesting to know who plays for XP and who plays for value.

Clogg · 13 Nov 2006, 19:39

Oh furball will drop by soonish to tell it would be to easy to refine coords from the alliance value.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for it, I'm also for the ingame taging off planets, so I don't really see a problem with ally value. But from past experiences I know there are a few against this idea and they will make their objections known loudly.

Heartless · 13 Nov 2006, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clogg

Oh furball will drop by soonish to tell it would be to easy to refine coords from the alliance value.

That's impossible right now and was almost impossible in the past. Right now it is impossible because alliances can contain more than 60 members but only 60 count towards the alliance score and size (and thus it should be towards the alliance value as well).

But, even if score/size/value of all members is counted, it still is a subset-sum problem. Those ain't trivial to solve, jester can tell you how often I tried and my final algorithm managed to trace alliances up to 8 members in reasonable time (~10 minutes), however, there could be multiple subsets found (=false positives wasting cpu time) and tracing down a 50 man alliance would take years.

furball · 13 Nov 2006, 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clogg

Oh furball will drop by soonish to tell it would be to easy to refine coords from the alliance value.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for it, I'm also for the ingame taging off planets, so I don't really see a problem with ally value. But from past experiences I know there are a few against this idea and they will make their objections known loudly.

Why me?

There was a superb thread on this where Jester (I think) established that it would be difficult, bordering on the impossible, to establish co-ord lists from public alliance values. I don't think it's lost to time though, so I'll keep searching - no luck so far.

Heartless · 13 Nov 2006, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball

Why me?

There was a superb thread on this where Jester (I think) established that it would be difficult, bordering on the impossible, to establish co-ord lists from public alliance values. I don't think it's lost to time though, so I'll keep searching - no luck so far.

You are correct there. It is on PD iirc, xtothez and jester discussing there. With some other elysium bloke.

Shyne · 13 Nov 2006, 21:48

Indeed, hence the suggestion to show value. If its approximate then its even harder, or at least not any easier.

Clogg · 13 Nov 2006, 23:39

Sorry furball but I recalled from the previous thread that you mentioned that it could be done. No pun intended

Jester · 14 Nov 2006, 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball

Why me?

There was a superb thread on this where Jester (I think) established that it would be difficult, bordering on the impossible, to establish co-ord lists from public alliance values. I don't think it's lost to time though, so I'll keep searching - no luck so far.

The word you're looking for is intractable. And it is. The only thing revealing value would do is reduce the number of false positives. It would still take just as long (what comes after millenium?) to find the correct combination.

furball · 24 Nov 2006, 01:23

Sorry for the bump everyone, but I found that thread while searching for something else.

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=180115

Heartless · 24 Nov 2006, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by furball

Sorry for the bump everyone, but I found that thread while searching for something else.

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=180115

And that perfectly demonstrates why it is a NP-heavy algorithm to solve the task of tracing down alliance members. Nowadays even impossible.

The_Tyrant · 30 Nov 2006, 20:48

So does that mean we're going to see value in the next round? Whats the argument against it?

Shyne · 3 Dec 2006, 03:07

Can we get a pa team yes / no for this one? The community doesn't appear to be saying no!

Kal · 3 Dec 2006, 10:46

Personally I belive that alliance and galaxy score should be calculated the same way that alliance score is now. And that for both of them standard normal value should be shown as well. I think value is important becuase it gives you an idea of the military strength of an alliance/galaxy, shich could be crucial in a decision to go to war etc.

robban1 · 3 Dec 2006, 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

Personally I belive that alliance and galaxy score should be calculated the same way that alliance score is now. And that for both of them standard normal value should be shown as well. I think value is important becuase it gives you an idea of the military strength of an alliance/galaxy, shich could be crucial in a decision to go to war etc.

well you and who else playing what? pa?

seems like you vision of a glorious game have missed the window by a mile by now

Heartless · 3 Dec 2006, 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by robban1

well you and who else playing what? pa?

seems like you vision of a glorious game have missed the window by a mile by now

Actually I like the idea of having only the best 75% of a galaxy contributing to the galaxy score. Gives you less incentive to exile a new player.

But of course there will still be the casual idiot buddypacks which will still insist on exiling newbies... (even if it's just for someone with more fleets for ingal def)

robban1 · 3 Dec 2006, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heartless

Actually I like the idea of having only the best 75% of a galaxy contributing to the galaxy score. Gives you less incentive to exile a new player.

But of course there will still be the casual idiot buddypacks which will still insist on exiling newbies... (even if it's just for someone with more fleets for ingal def)

probably yes but i was more about the fact that its too late to fix the flat tire then you already have hit the wall with the car

Jester · 3 Dec 2006, 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

Personally I belive that alliance and galaxy score should be calculated the same way that alliance score is now. And that for both of them standard normal value should be shown as well. I think value is important becuase it gives you an idea of the military strength of an alliance/galaxy, shich could be crucial in a decision to go to war etc.

Personally, I think you pull these opinions out of a random word generator.