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4 Feb 2003, 12:48
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#1
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Debating Threads
Hi,
After some discussion and due to popular demand, we'll soon be running some organised debates here.
More info regarding PA forum debates
Cheers,
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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4 Feb 2003, 12:51
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#2
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Dirte
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,573
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So, this new subforum will be opened here, then?
Oh, and who decides who debates for what cause, etc? (It might be obvious, but i could not grasp that.. )
Anyways, i think its a good idea.
__________________
"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he makes waffles not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."
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4 Feb 2003, 12:53
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#3
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Snurx: I guess we'll start off by using major issues in the news at the moment. But I think it's a good idea if people message the debate mods with ideas
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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4 Feb 2003, 12:53
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#4
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Excellent!
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4 Feb 2003, 17:02
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#5
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Guest
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Stickied
I'll get to making the debating forum asap
probably will be active for the weekend
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4 Feb 2003, 17:42
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#6
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Guest
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i think the first debate should be on whether it will work or not, then we go from there?
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4 Feb 2003, 18:27
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#7
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The 1970's
Posts: 549
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"The debate-specific mods are all experienced "real world" debaters - so trust their judgment."
Yeah good luck with that.
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4 Feb 2003, 19:12
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#8
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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I thought JJ said "no" to a debating forum (in the thread you started some months back)??
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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4 Feb 2003, 20:03
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#9
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Up yours
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Mighty Scotland
Posts: 491
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wow, it'll turn into another GD with more trolls and more flaming.
FUN FUN FUN.
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4 Feb 2003, 20:11
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#10
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Torz
wow, it'll turn into another GD with more trolls and more flaming.
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Like I said, we're appealing to people's better natures. But if there is abuse, it'll be dealt with.
If the worst comes to the worst then I guess people will have to apply to take part.
I'd hate to see something a lot of people have requested be ruined by idiots.
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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4 Feb 2003, 20:12
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#11
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sub
"The debate-specific mods are all experienced "real world" debaters - so trust their judgment."
Yeah good luck with that.
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Well (afaik?) I'll be one of the mods.
Anyway, people who feel like this shouldn't waste their precious time by even looking at the forum. We can ban you right off if you like?
It's just gonna be a bit of fun anyway!
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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4 Feb 2003, 20:13
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#12
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Guest
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The idea is sound despite any previous comments i may have ever ever said.
As we are given a day to research the topic before the debate starts, I feel participating in this properly will give me a reason to learn about things I usually would not have bothered with, allowing my to improve my intellect and outlook on society.
I'm not stupid, I just don't know stuff!
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4 Feb 2003, 20:23
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: I hate you all
Posts: 718
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this does sound like it could work quite well as long as trolls are dealt with harshly. I think it could be fun to debate from the view that isnt neccessarily my own
__________________
I admit it, i'm a [TiT]
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4 Feb 2003, 20:56
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#14
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Guest
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/me hones the googling skills
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4 Feb 2003, 20:58
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#15
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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So will it be allowed, and more importantly, will it happen?
I hope so. It sounds jolly. Don't let Nod in tho.
So what's going to happen?
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4 Feb 2003, 20:59
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#16
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Guest
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
So what's going to happen?
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I'm gonna kick your lily white butt \o/
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4 Feb 2003, 21:21
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#17
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Angry Young Man
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mister Cacciatore's down on Sullivan Street
Posts: 7,518
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Im still sceptical.
Where are all these posters coming from?
Your basically creating a forum for the "best" of what GD has to offer in terms of debate, and debaters. If you havent noticed, we have a severe lack of posters at the moment, a lot of which are trolls, a lot of which are spammers, and a lot of which arent intrested in debate. Nevermind the amount of debaters that arent even intrested in the other side of the story regardless how its put.
I think your basically counting on an influx of posters from Jolt if this round is any use, which isnt really going to help you looking on past experience. Look at how low participation was for Kura's trollstars, which was the same as this, but with a few rougher edges. Not many people entered, the people that made it in, a lot soon lost intrest, of the final 4 only 3 were in anyway "Noticed" to be caring, and the gd public didnt give a **** at all.
To me this just looks like an organised GD with different mods. It splits up GD even more and for this reason i am against it in this form. I was hoping Karm would weave his magic, into somehow being able to start specific stickied "debating" threads, in which 'teams' were decided, and all the rest. Different colour scheme, highlighted, but within GD would have been good.
Dont get me wrong, i will take part in the discussions i find myself with an opinion on, or interested in learning more about. I just think this whole thing might not be as easy as you think it will.
__________________
Believe in me, cause i don't believe in anything
And i wanna be someone, to believe, to believe in
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4 Feb 2003, 23:07
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#18
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First Disciple of Aldur
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: The Vale of Aldur
Posts: 1,470
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deffeh
To me this just looks like an organised GD with different mods. It splits up GD even more and for this reason i am against it in this form.
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Seldom have I agreed with Deffeh, but on this I have to.
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Yeah.
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4 Feb 2003, 23:18
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#19
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Let the mods decide who "wins" the debate not the collective mass of posters.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Feb 2003, 23:30
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#20
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fascinated by bridges!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Norwegiensis
Posts: 919
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Let me know if you're ever discussing 'Ethics in the Celebrity and Porn Age'.
I could say a thing or two about that.
Yet I feel somewhat despirited about the whole thing, because when I try to formulate Words In English that go beyond 30 lines I lose grip on reality and start messing up.
I'm bred for short messages.
Matrim
__________________
Holy smoke.
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4 Feb 2003, 23:52
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#21
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Look over there!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 704
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Can we get a better idea of what is going to be moderated (i.e. deleted) - the abuse, the irrelevant, the superfluous?
Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
Let the mods decide who "wins" the debate not the collective mass of posters.
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Might be better to have both?
__________________
Do not argue with me! I control your arms!
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5 Feb 2003, 00:05
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#22
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Bitch
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3,848
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Quote:
Originally posted by G_frog
Can we get a better idea of what is going to be moderated (i.e. deleted) - the abuse, the irrelevant, the superfluous?
Might be better to have both?
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Or the second debate could be 'This house believes the result of the first debate was unfair' and so on in perpetuity!
__________________
ACHTUNG!!!
Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy
schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit
spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets. Relaxen und vatch
das blinkenlights!!!
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5 Feb 2003, 00:21
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#23
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle
I'm gonna kick your lily white butt \o/
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Hi Kiss.
You're not invited to our party
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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5 Feb 2003, 00:28
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#24
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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I must admit I don't like this whole research thing. It'd remove part of the enjoyment, for me personally that is, that can be derived from a pure battle of wits (in so far as that word can be applied here heh). One could end up with someone posting an 8 page essay they found on google that is impossible to argue with due to the sheer length and verbosity involved in something that superfluous. As much as I hate to sound negative if you're 'recruiting' purely within PA you'll end up with a severe lack of depth and a paucity of alternate opinions. Of course the much vaunted and anticipated influx into Planetarion will change things.....
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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5 Feb 2003, 01:03
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#25
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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JBG: That's a good point that I hadn't considered at all.
I did suggest "Only quote the minimum necessary. If possible use a text editor to arrange multiple quotes for posting in one reply", and I guess we should explicitly make this applicable to quoted materials.
I guess I was just trying to run this like a real-world debate, which may not be appropriate.
It would seem logical then to simply run a couple of debates and learn what works?
Ta for your input,
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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5 Feb 2003, 02:28
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#26
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle
/me hones the googling skills
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Happy Birthday, whenever it was.
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5 Feb 2003, 02:39
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#27
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Guest
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It's a bad idea.
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5 Feb 2003, 03:30
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#28
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Of course it's a bad idea, but I don't care because I'm not going to go there.
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5 Feb 2003, 08:01
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#29
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Good Son
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,991
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It might be a bad idea, if poorly done.
On the other hand, it might be a good idea.
Sounds like fun.
__________________
"Oh, wretched race of a day, children of chance and misery, why do ye compel me to say to you what it were most expedient for you not to hear? What is best of all is for ever beyond your reach: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. The second best for you, however, is soon to die". Silenus, tutor to Dionysos, speaking to King Midas.
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5 Feb 2003, 08:59
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#30
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Doh!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nemo Mortalium Omnibus Horis Sapit
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mong
we're appealing to people's better natures.
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Are you sure they have one?
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5 Feb 2003, 10:51
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#31
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judge
Are you sure they have one?
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I hope so
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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5 Feb 2003, 13:07
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#32
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I'm not a poet
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 603
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I also would like to know who these mods are/will be.
I mean for all I know, DavinBrahm and Pavil have extensive real world debating experience...
__________________
'There's no place like 127.0.0.1...there's no place like 127.0.0.1'
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5 Feb 2003, 13:18
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#33
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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The whole idea sounds very elitist, so I like it.
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5 Feb 2003, 14:12
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#34
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain T'Bolt
... To extend on the issue JBG raised, I believe no linkage should be allowed. In the real debates, all proof/statistics are quoted off ones head, and so as long as they sound feasible they do pass ...
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In all the organised debates I've been involved in, preparation has been of vital importance.
I once had to argue "That MDF is a better material for office furniture than pine".
I obviously didn't know anything about it, so spent 30 mins reading about it (I don't recall much so don't ask!)
But regarding linkage, I think what we'll say is: "Don't ask people to view external links in support of your argument".
What people should do is use whatever sources they can to formulate their OWN comments. They only linkage allowed should surely be simply to verify your claims?
I understand the "battle of wits" aspect. However without verifiable sources, people can of course make spurious (and debate-winning) claims. For example;
"I insist that being infected with anthrax is good for you"
"Why?"
"Because official governement reports show nobody dying from anthrax"
(Okay, a bit extreme)
Anyway... I'm glad we've got a healthy debate going on here
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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5 Feb 2003, 14:47
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#35
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I'm not a poet
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Uppsala
Posts: 603
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I can agree with that: linking for verification but not actual support. Otherwise people could make anything up...
__________________
'There's no place like 127.0.0.1...there's no place like 127.0.0.1'
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5 Feb 2003, 15:23
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#36
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Guest
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I'm game
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5 Feb 2003, 21:25
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#37
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Child Eating Zombie Clown
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,450
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We can already debate just as well in GD. Why do we need a forum on it's own?
Everything in the debating forum would fit in just as well in GD. I can't see a point.
Furthermore, topics have to be chosen by a mod before they can be discussed? What the hell? If you want to promote discussion, you don't regulate it.
Stupid idea, imo.
__________________
Mirai - An Astral Being From Outer Space
Die You Bitch Minister of Insanity - "Timete Nostrum Piscem Furoris"
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever, we begin bombing in 5 minutes - President Ronald Reagan, in a radio check where he did not realize the microphone was on and the station broadcasting
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5 Feb 2003, 21:27
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#38
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Henry Kelly
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,374
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mirai
We can already debate just as well in GD. Why do we need a forum on it's own?
Everything in the debating forum would fit in just as well in GD. I can't see a point.
Furthermore, topics have to be chosen by a mod before they can be discussed? What the hell? If you want to promote discussion, you don't regulate it.
Stupid idea, imo.
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A debate is significantly different stylistically than general discussions about 'things', the whole structure of it is incompatible with GD unless it's constantly modded, even then it'd need revisions to the current rules.
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5 Feb 2003, 21:53
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#39
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Child Eating Zombie Clown
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 1,450
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A true debate cannot work in a forum setting without vicious modding, which takes away from the entire point of discussion.
__________________
Mirai - An Astral Being From Outer Space
Die You Bitch Minister of Insanity - "Timete Nostrum Piscem Furoris"
My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever, we begin bombing in 5 minutes - President Ronald Reagan, in a radio check where he did not realize the microphone was on and the station broadcasting
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5 Feb 2003, 23:21
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#40
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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There'd need to be a limit on post length (say x number of characters) and posts (per evening/hour/debate/whatever). Otherwise you just get really tedious people posting every 3 seconds or worse someone just posting a google search of the subject to crush anyone's will to argue.
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6 Feb 2003, 04:23
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#41
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Guest
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Im prepared to give it my full co-orperation in an attempt to save a once excellent community!
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6 Feb 2003, 10:38
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#42
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Henry Kelly
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,374
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mirai
A true debate cannot work in a forum setting without vicious modding, which takes away from the entire point of discussion.
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You're missing the point. It's a debate not a discussion and vicious modding is why it needs its own forum.
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6 Feb 2003, 11:19
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#43
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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I do think some serious modding will be required tbh, not just to control the inevitable trolling* but to make sure that nobody uses spoiling tactics to negate arguments.
Ideally no modding will be required. I think the only way we'll know is to try it!
Oh and when do ppl prefer the debates? Weekends or weekdays?
M.
* I'd be delighted if ppl would respect the debate and not be idiots, but this is GD after all
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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6 Feb 2003, 11:21
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#44
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Henry Kelly
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,374
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mong
I do think some serious modding will be required tbh, not just to control the inevitable trolling* but to make sure that nobody uses spoiling tactics to negate arguments.
Ideally no modding will be required. I think the only way we'll know is to try it!
Oh and when do ppl prefer the debates? Weekends or weekdays?
M.
* I'd be delighted if ppl would respect the debate and not be idiots, but this is GD after all
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Run two alongside each other, one for the weekend one for in the week, have the weekday ones be more topical and the weekend ones more involved.
Or something.
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7 Feb 2003, 05:53
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#45
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Look over there!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 704
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surely one post each, and one chance to reply each, would be more usual?
If all posts wre made through a moderator and submitted at a certain time, it would also be possible to incorporate questions from the floor.
This could even allow the contributors anonymity, which might go some way to alleviating problems (although a lot of people could probably identify posters quite easily).
However, I think the important thing is to just get something going asap, to build interest. I'd certainly debate on any motion i found half-way interesting.
__________________
Do not argue with me! I control your arms!
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10 Feb 2003, 12:49
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#46
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Guest
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This is an AWESOME idea! Now, no one can accuse a person of getting "trolled" when responding intelligently and eloquently on an inflammatory subject!
If you are taking ideas for debate topics, here's one.
"Arguing with people you don't know on the internet is good for the society at large."
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10 Feb 2003, 14:09
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#47
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wî†ne§§ †GñA†
This is an AWESOME idea! ... "Arguing with people you don't know on the internet is good for the society at large."
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Cheers I think it's an awesome idea too... so it's down to Karm to make it happen!
That's a good basic idea for a debate btw, I forsee something like that as a topic in the future.
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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11 Feb 2003, 00:32
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#48
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Thread cleansed
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11 Feb 2003, 00:35
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#49
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Henry Kelly
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,374
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I hope to God this gets the go-ahead given that abso-fking-lute travesty that is the PA Gallery forum.
Get on it Karm, damn you.
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11 Feb 2003, 11:17
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#50
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Forever Delayed
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: www.netgamers.org
Posts: 1,475
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Thread cleansed
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I hope you didn't delete anything, as there was nothing wrong with any of the posts in this sticky so far...
M.
__________________
Firefly Oper and General l4m3r - "I Do Stuff"
O2 Rip-off campaign
<vampy> plus i hate people ... i despise humanity as a whole
pablissimo "I'm still geting over the fact you just posted a pic of your own vomit"
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