Playing the game the MadCows way

[Jester]

Originally posted by Patrician
Round 5: Fury/Legion/Tuba/Virus/Wolfpack/Elysium v NoS/Xan/CELL (And a few runt flack alliances) - Utterly predictable before ticks began, and everyone knew it. (It was also fairly clear just what the numbers were)

Of course each side will exaggerate their opponants numbers, I've rarely seen a universal consensus that one block was significantly larger than another - And that certainly didn't happen in round 5, as it was at the height of the AD flame wars.

By the time the round started, yes. But when Nocex formed and the certain opposition hadn't? The board had an abundance of 'evil nos/xan/cell' posts. After all, they counted 600 members.

Jester

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Patrician
Round 5: Fury/Legion/Tuba/Virus/Wolfpack/Elysium v NoS/Xan/CELL (And a few runt flack alliances) - Utterly predictable before ticks began, and everyone knew it. (It was also fairly clear just what the numbers were)

Of course each side will exaggerate their opponants numbers, I've rarely seen a universal consensus that one block was significantly larger than another - And that certainly didn't happen in round 5, as it was at the height of the AD flame wars.

If we get technical, it was WTF + VE vs NoCeX originally.

The flak were greatly overestimated, and although I know we wanted victory - we didnt want the victory we got really.

[Teh_Necro]

What worries me most is infact how VoM have kept most of their gals strictly VoM and not mixed with the neutrals, where as WEE gals openly allow many NoS/ND/RaH members thus indirectly piling the weight upon VoM, and once their finished with WEE simply picks off the Neutral galaxies that have no or little WEE in them.

I'll save this post, and re-post it at the end of the round, wether im correct or not.

-Necro

[Patrician]

Originally posted by Jester667
By the time the round started, yes. But when Nocex formed and the certain opposition hadn't? The board had an abundance of 'evil nos/xan/cell' posts. After all, they counted 600 members.

Jester

But surely the first (and briefly only) block to form would always be deemed the largest, as it is the only one? Heh. And I could argue your point that the opposition hadn't yet formed :/

Originally posted by Zh|l
If we get technical, it was WTF + VE vs NoCeX originally.

The flak were greatly overestimated, and although I know we wanted victory - we didnt want the victory we got really.

Yes and WTF+VE = WTFVE (& co). The only distinction here was that there were two arbiters, and two command channels (both communicating with the other) - Any claim that WTF and VE were two seperate entities went out the window, confirmed when F/L did their usual.

The flack weren't overestimated, it was obvious thats just what they were - flack. They served as a useful board tool to attempt to make NoCeX more of a credible threat to the mega block. And I would say Fury/Legion got exactly the victory they wanted, to make up for the round 4 'upstarts' trumping them.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Patrician

Yes and WTF+VE = WTFVE (& co). The only distinction here was that there were two arbiters, and two command channels (both communicating with the other) - Any claim that WTF and VE were two seperate entities went out the window, confirmed when F/L did their usual.

Officially they were, in practice we worked together as effectively one block. As for F/L doing the usual that wasnt planned to my knowledge - Sid denies having planned for it to happen the way it did but then thats up to you to believe or not (What he told me at the Fury meets)

Originally posted by Patrician

The flack weren't overestimated, it was obvious thats just what they were - flack. They served as a useful board tool to attempt to make NoCeX more of a credible threat to the mega block. And I would say Fury/Legion got exactly the victory they wanted, to make up for the round 4 'upstarts' trumping them.

A mistake on part of NoCeX perhaps. Regardless, Sid did not wish for the NoCeX block to have crumbled as it did moments before the round began/was underway. We would have won regardless, we both know this - but we wanted 'some war'. We ofcourse wanted victory over the 'upstarts'

[Torz]

Originally posted by Zh|l




A mistake on part of NoCeX perhaps. Regardless, Sid did not wish for the NoCeX block to have crumbled as it did moments before the round began/was underway.

Don't believe it for a second or the whole Sandman thing wouldn't have happened. Wasn't quite sure what time frame you are talking about here so you may be on about before this.

[Radium-^]

Isn't Madcows some 3rd rate crap alliance that has done little to nothing during its existance ?

m00 m00 etc.

[Sirad]

Originally posted by Radium-^
Isn't Madcows some 3rd rate crap alliance that has done little to nothing during its existance ?

m00 m00 etc.

your l33t, i your bridge is getting cold whilst your not under it

[Rocklobster[Dok]]

m000000000

Well said Radium

[Radium-^]

Originally posted by sirad
your l33t, i your bridge is getting cold whilst your not under it

I am correct tho, no ?

[Sirad]

Originally posted by Radium-^
I am correct tho, no ?

no

[Rocklobster[Dok]]

did the crasy cows ever hit something bigger then 2mil planets in high clusters?

¤FLAME¤

[Radium-^]

Originally posted by sirad
no

I think i am.

MadCows aka Flak alliance of their block ?
MadCows aka The North American TFD (loosely based :P)

[Sirad]

Originally posted by Radium-^
I think i am.

MadCows aka Flak alliance of their block ?
MadCows aka The North American TFD (loosely based :P)

your misinformed think what you will

[Saitam]

Originally posted by Zh|l
If we get technical, it was WTF + VE vs NoCeX originally.

The flak were greatly overestimated, and although I know we wanted victory - we didnt want the victory we got really.

To correct that it was in truth WTF+VE vs NoCeX+GMT (G-ii, MI, Templar) at the start of the round.

[Teh_Necro]

Heh the sole reason that NoCeX crumbled was partly due to the hacking of their arbiter and NoS/Cell both having internal complications. Lux split from NoS and many Cell members packed up and left due to the P2P factor.

I think had those two factors not happend then the NoCeX block would of been most certainly more formitiable.

-Necro

[ComradeRob]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Heh the sole reason that NoCeX crumbled was partly due to the hacking of their arbiter and NoS/Cell both having internal complications. Lux split from NoS and many Cell members packed up and left due to the P2P factor.

I think had those two factors not happend then the NoCeX block would of been most certainly more formitiable.

-Necro

Highly doubtful - NoCeX was always going to lose, and the factors contributing to its demise were far greater than just the Lux split or CELL's weakening. The block communicated awfully, had essentially useless NAPs with weak alliances (yay! MI!) and spent more time arguing over technical issues (Julia ) than it did discussing how to actually win the round.

NoCeX never stood a chance of victory, and they knew it long before the round started.

[SpazMonster]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Heh the sole reason that NoCeX crumbled was partly due to the hacking of their arbiter and NoS/Cell both having internal complications. Lux split from NoS and many Cell members packed up and left due to the P2P factor.

I think had those two factors not happend then the NoCeX block would of been most certainly more formitiable.

-Necro

Kinda like how legion fell in r7 after ice leaked their coord list?

And sole reason and partly due have somewhat differing meanings...

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
Highly doubtful - NoCeX was always going to lose, and the factors contributing to its demise were far greater than just the Lux split or CELL's weakening. The block communicated awfully, had essentially useless NAPs with weak alliances (yay! MI!) and spent more time arguing over technical issues (Julia ) than it did discussing how to actually win the round.

NoCeX never stood a chance of victory, and they knew it long before the round started.

I must admit I never really understood the utter decay suffered by the NoCeX block in r5. If you had taken these three alliances in one block in r4 they would have easily won (my personal opinion of course). It brings up an interesting question of what exactly changed in such a short space of time, relatively speaking.

[Patrician]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I must admit I never really understood the utter decay suffered by the NoCeX block in r5. If you had taken these three alliances in one block in r4 they would have easily won (my personal opinion of course). It brings up an interesting question of what exactly changed in such a short space of time, relatively speaking.

Heh.

Xan - excellent alliance, NoS - high scoring, never fought for it though (always seems to me that they relied on others to achieve success), CELL - raiding alliance, never provided any credible threat.

Those three alliances wouldn't have stood much of a chance in round 4. CELL's contribution to any war effort would be minor, leaving it up to Xan and NoS to bear the brunt of attacking. Now assuming these three formed a block excluding any other alliance, this would leave Legion out in the cold (as it would be unlikely - even for Fury, that the events of the end of round 3 would be forgotten so quickly). Fury would continue on course to eventually ally Tuba and WP - And VtS would ally Elysium. This leaves an FFA situation, which is of course unthinkable in PA. Hence the swing factor would be VE, who would most likely move to cooperate with Xan/NoS.
This of course wouldn't be Xan/NoS/CELL obtaining victory alone.

However, Xan would be unlikely to move away from VtS as their primary ally, too much shared interest (shared HC at one point) - If you mean simply ripping the entire political spectrum of PA apart and 'dropping' these round 5 alliances into round 4, they wouldn't win then either - As they did not have the potential to win. In that case the universe would polarise against them (in true PA style).

As for easily winning - No triad since The Triad in round three would win easily, save perhaps the scenario of Fury/Xanadu/Legion getting together, in which case gg universe. If you mean one block standing against an unallied universe - then any three alliance block could win.

[ComradeRob]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I must admit I never really understood the utter decay suffered by the NoCeX block in r5. If you had taken these three alliances in one block in r4 they would have easily won (my personal opinion of course). It brings up an interesting question of what exactly changed in such a short space of time, relatively speaking.

All three alliances lost major firepower in the transition from r4 to r5.

Xanadu lost most of LDK due to p2p - it wasn't until r6 that they were back to full strength... Xanadu tried to fund as many LDK members as possible for r5, by p2p did catch a lot of people unprepared.

CELL lost many of their core members, in particular people like Cray who had been instrumental in making CELL successful in r4.

NoS... well... in my opinion, NoS was highly overrated by the end of r4. At the beginning, there was a core of very talented players, and I was lucky to have been recruited to the alliance at the time that I was. However, as the round progressed a lot of these core members left, and were replaced with people who were recruited more for their score and temporary advantage than for their dedication to the alliance. Internal command was very weak, in contrast with the politically clever tactics being used.

By the end of r4, NoS had no definitive member list, with member lists having to be totally rewritten at the end of the round. Many people who had joined NoS had done so in order to gain the protection of NoS' political position, rather than a willingness to dedicate themselves to the alliance. In short, while NoS looked impressive outwardly, it was an internal mess - only the end of the round prevented this being exposed late in r4 when Fury and Legion both turned their guns on NoS.

When Dingo left, a new HC was put in place which tried to turn things back in the old direction - a smaller, leaner, more well-organised and cohesive alliance. With Dingo's return and the arguments that followed, a split occurred. It really was the final, obvious symptom of problems that had existed long before. Even if the Lux split had not occurred, the problems within NoS would have prevented a performance like r4, in my opinion.

In constrast, Fury and Legion underwent a renaissance. With the return of Wolfpack to Legion, the pool of talented players in Legion was much larger than in r4. Likewise, the creation of Wrath gave Fury a new and powerful edge.

Had some of these things not happened, r5 might have been very different. If Xanadu, NoS and CELL had all been at their peak, they could well have put up a much stronger fight. But, during r5, each alliance was probably at its weakest point, with their enemies very much in the ascendancy, leading to a very predictable result.

[Teh_Necro]

Originally posted by SpazMonster
Kinda like how legion fell in r7 after ice leaked their coord list?

And sole reason and partly due have somewhat differing meanings...

At the begining of the round? No.

Secondly i come here to discuss planetarion allinace issue's, not my grammar (or lack of) so please keep it to yourself and the little green men whom you share a bed room with.

-Necro

[Teh_Necro]

Pat interesting point there, and for the most part i'd have to agree. However several things i'd like to add my opinion on.

I think if we were speaking on military might alone then NoS/Cell and Xanadu could not of taken on WTF and VE. However if we look at how NoS played the round we notice essentially how they came to grow. Firstly NoS members were in Legion/Xanadu gals, as that was the initial triad going into round 4. Then NoS left the triad, but still maintained a nap with Xanadu. Also with a lot of NoS being in Legion galaxies it meant that essentially Legion could not hit NoS. NoS had agreed initially on a nap with fury after leaving the triad and allied Cell. Also Talks were going on between Wolfpack and NoS, i even remember WP bc's being in NoS/Cell channels. This meant now that the following could not hit NoS gals.

Legion
Xanadu
Fury
WP
Tuba (? not sure if u guys hit NoS still, think u may of been concentrating on Legion/Elysium.)

That is 5 major alliances from the round. This meant that Legion for a good month of round 4 along with Elysium and Xanadu were on the back foot. Xanadu managed to carry on however arguably keeping the triad alive.

Some may argue that elysium did as well, however from what i was aware NoS/Cell murderd Elysium gals nightly, every target was an Elysium tagged galaxy (remember elysium had tagged with allies TRT - Reborn earlier in the round). This obviously meant that VeX was struggling.

For some reason NoS hopped back and began targetting WTF galaxies, and the negotiations with Woflpack ended (althought at one point if i recall correctly it looked like Woflpack would leave fury). This led to Tuba and Cell having an extremley heated confrontaition over some weeks, things were getting personal, i could tell .

In the end NoS had essentially always been onthe stronger side throughout the round and never truly had much incomming until later on, when Legion/Fury started to show signs of co-operation.

Im not taking nething away from r4 NoS they were a fantastic alliance, a reverlation infact. But im just saying this is perhaps why they were not as strong as ppl would of thought.

Ive only just really gone over this after what Rob said, he made me think a little more on the events and ive come to this conclusion.

Enjoy (and insinuations that im a twat b/c i cant spell will be followed by wet trouts).

-Necro

[WipeOut]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Heh the sole reason that NoCeX crumbled was partly due to the hacking of their arbiter and NoS/Cell both having internal complications. Lux split from NoS and many Cell members packed up and left due to the P2P factor.

I think had those two factors not happend then the NoCeX block would of been most certainly more formitiable.

-Necro

No hacking was involved in the loss of the NoCeX coords, stupidity was the sole reason for these coords to 'leak'.

Though let's not go in to that

[Sirad]

Originally posted by WipeOut
No hacking was involved in the loss of the NoCeX coords, stupidity was the sole reason for these coords to 'leak'.

Though let's not go in to that

YOU are supposed to be in a alliance channel where i reside in when your online..
o ya and beer who als comming ?

[Salomo]

I admit i didn't read this thread, but i would like to state a short moooooooooooooooo0000000000000000000000ooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOoo0000ooo0000oooo0000oooOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOh!


(sorry, i was tempted since this thread came about and resisted, but this thread has been up so long that the BSE prions in my head can no longer resist and are forcing my hands to type this against my will)

[RooKie]

I second that, Salamo!

m0000000000000000000!!

[StarlockUV]

lovely post mate well said

[Teh_Necro]

Hack meaning that somebody who shouldn't of had access got access ;]

The term has a lose meaning admitedly, i'll choose better wording in the futer.

/me recalls the flames when this topic was last brought up.

[Torz]

Originally posted by WipeOut
No hacking was involved in the loss of the NoCeX coords, stupidity was the sole reason for these coords to 'leak'.

Though let's not go in to that

Grim/jabula

[JonnyBGood]

One thing I actually thought of to answer my own earlier point, and which is consistently pointed out to me by a friend of mine is the return of Sid to fury. I must admit I'd neglected to consider the return of pack to legion and the resultant jump in quality again, much higher than the legion that I thought was carried in r4 by Xanadu a lot





And let's not start in on the notorious 'hacking' of the NoCeX member list.

[Scorpio]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Firstly NoS members were in Legion/Xanadu gals, as that was the initial triad going into round 4.

You'd be suprized how few shared galaxies we had.
I think there's never been a block with less shared galaxies.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I must admit I'd neglected to consider the return of pack to legion and the resultant jump in quality again, much higher than the legion that I thought was carried in r4 by Xanadu a lot

I'd take round 4 Legion over round 5 Legion any day of the week.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Scouse
I'd take round 4 Legion over round 5 Legion any day of the week.

Amen.

good rec policy & loyalty > *

Necro: NoSex were f***** from the start, even if the nos split had never happened and there were no coords leak.
Their opponents had the numbers and the quality.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by G.K Zhukov
Amen.

Necro: NoSex were f***** from the start, even if the nos split had never happened and there were no coords leak.
Their opponents had the numbers and the quality.

not to forget the desire& motivation

[Torz]

Originally posted by Scouse
I'd take round 4 Legion over round 5 Legion any day of the week.

shame round4 would have been Legion's last round then eh?

SUch a shame to finish with such a piss poor performance.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Pat interesting point there, and for the most part i'd have to agree. However several things i'd like to add my opinion on.

I think if we were speaking on military might alone then NoS/Cell and Xanadu could not of taken on WTF and VE. However if we look at how NoS played the round we notice essentially how they came to grow. Firstly NoS members were in Legion/Xanadu gals, as that was the initial triad going into round 4. Then NoS left the triad, but still maintained a nap with Xanadu. Also with a lot of NoS being in Legion galaxies it meant that essentially Legion could not hit NoS. NoS had agreed initially on a nap with fury after leaving the triad and allied Cell. Also Talks were going on between Wolfpack and NoS, i even remember WP bc's being in NoS/Cell channels. This meant now that the following could not hit NoS gals.

Legion
Xanadu
Fury
WP
Tuba (? not sure if u guys hit NoS still, think u may of been concentrating on Legion/Elysium.)

That is 5 major alliances from the round. This meant that Legion for a good month of round 4 along with Elysium and Xanadu were on the back foot. Xanadu managed to carry on however arguably keeping the triad alive.

Some may argue that elysium did as well, however from what i was aware NoS/Cell murderd Elysium gals nightly, every target was an Elysium tagged galaxy (remember elysium had tagged with allies TRT - Reborn earlier in the round). This obviously meant that VeX was struggling.

For some reason NoS hopped back and began targetting WTF galaxies, and the negotiations with Woflpack ended (althought at one point if i recall correctly it looked like Woflpack would leave fury). This led to Tuba and Cell having an extremley heated confrontaition over some weeks, things were getting personal, i could tell .

In the end NoS had essentially always been onthe stronger side throughout the round and never truly had much incomming until later on, when Legion/Fury started to show signs of co-operation.

Im not taking nething away from r4 NoS they were a fantastic alliance, a reverlation infact. But im just saying this is perhaps why they were not as strong as ppl would of thought.

Ive only just really gone over this after what Rob said, he made me think a little more on the events and ive come to this conclusion.

Enjoy (and insinuations that im a twat b/c i cant spell will be followed by wet trouts).

-Necro

To correct something here - Wolfpack DID leave Fury. This was as soon as Seduzer, Jonka and co were put in charge. Seduzer had first hand info and knowledge to the internal chaos that was Fury.

NoS/CELL turning back to the VeX side surely was a contributing deciding edge to the war. Even whilst Fury was in a mess, things remained quite iffy.

If Fury had not suffered its command problems, then maybe 1) NoS/CELL cooperation would have gone much smoother thus preventing them hopping sides anyway 2) Fury might have contributed alot more before the switch and VeX may have collapsed 3) Even if the NoS/CELL switch had happened, Fury would have been in a much better position than it was at the time. There was no real leadership bar some help from Ghengis/Cayl

I still think that if Fury had not suffered its problems, and Wolfpack had not lost Biggdogg - then r4 would have been a different story entirely.

[Storebo]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
Some may argue that elysium did as well, however from what i was aware NoS/Cell murderd Elysium gals nightly, every target was an Elysium tagged galaxy (remember elysium had tagged with allies TRT - Reborn earlier in the round). This obviously meant that VeX was struggling.

Actually... I have a different view... Elysium defence was pretty decent. Remember Elysium had 4-500 members when they tagged up. When entering the triad they scimmed down to around 200 something members... kicked the inactives etc..
And also stopped tagging at that point. So Half their targets might not have even been Elysium at all.. Just someone who was briefly into Acheron. Personally I didn't loose a roid for the whole round.. And I had plenty of visitors... Fury and NoS etc. My gal was mainly Elys aswell.. about 15 of 25 or something.. and we managed to survive even when the gal brooke up and it was basically only me as the active one left.

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Torz
shame round4 would have been Legion's last round then eh?

SUch a shame to finish with such a piss poor performance.

But we were still on the winning side. Considering what Legion was at the end of round 3 I'd say they did extremely well in round 4. We would have not done much worse in round 5 without all the WP'ers. In fact, we'd have probably done just as well.

The WP members rejoining Legion in round 5 did Legion more harm than good, in my opinion. Legion command in round 6 and 7 was rather ****e, and that was all down to Biggdogg taking over again in round 5 and the command team being crap. Only a few ever did much in either round (6 or 7).

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Teh_Necro


Some may argue that elysium did as well, however from what i was aware NoS/Cell murderd Elysium gals nightly, every target was an Elysium tagged galaxy (remember elysium had tagged with allies TRT - Reborn earlier in the round). This obviously meant that VeX was struggling.

-Necro

Defence has always been extremy well organized and executed in elysium, but the attacks sucked.. untill it got properly organized in r6

at the point where elysium had nearly 500 members, the hc gave the members an order to fill out a form of something.. cant remember what exactly. Those who failed to do so within a week got kicked out, score or position hardly mattered. similar happened to the members in low-score gals. Very few of those were allowed back

so.. as Storebo just pointed out, it could just as much have been a tagged elysium wannabe gal without any kind of protection

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally posted by Scouse
But we were still on the winning side. Considering what Legion was at the end of round 3 I'd say they did extremely well in round 4. We would have not done much worse in round 5 without all the WP'ers. In fact, we'd have probably done just as well.

The WP members rejoining Legion in round 5 did Legion more harm than good, in my opinion. Legion command in round 6 and 7 was rather ****e, and that was all down to Biggdogg taking over again in round 5 and the command team being crap. Only a few ever did much in either round (6 or 7).

Legion had a command in r6&7??????

*shocking*

[Teh_Necro]

I don't doubt that Storebo/Norsemen i'm just saying it from my perspective, as thats all i have to go on. The gals we were hitting betweem NoS/CELL were indeed tagged, so perhaps they were chuckout galaxies.

As for the round 4 legion, well heh you just have to look at Titans, arguably the better half of r5 legion, and tell me why they left legion?

Truth of the matter is, r5 legion probably would of owned r4 legion, but to do as well as we did (as scouse correctly pointed out) from what we had to work with was commendable in itself, although i wouldn't take nething away from xan, their the reason VeX dominated the later stages of the round.

-Necro

[Radium-^]

Originally posted by Scouse
I'd take round 4 Legion over round 5 Legion any day of the week.

Your dummy is on the floor

[Storebo]

Originally posted by Norseman
at the point where elysium had nearly 500 members, the hc gave the members an order to fill out a form of something.. cant remember what exactly. Those who failed to do so within a week got kicked out, score or position hardly mattered. similar happened to the members in low-score gals. Very few of those were allowed back

It was within 3 days actually

[Torz]

Originally posted by Scouse
But we were still on the winning side. Considering what Legion was at the end of round 3 I'd say they did extremely well in round 4. We would have not done much worse in round 5 without all the WP'ers. In fact, we'd have probably done just as well.

From an alliance that had won every round it had played in I think round4 was a pretty piss poor performance by Legion, finishing on the winning side or not. From what I was told there probably wouldn't have been a Legion in round5 had these events not happened.


As for the rest of your post, I somewhat agree. I am only sorry that I actually played a little part in it happening :/

PS: WTF would have overrun you easily.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by Storebo
It was within 3 days actually

i know or.. I remember it now, one week would have been kinda pointless

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Torz
From an alliance that had won every round it had played in I think round4 was a pretty piss poor performance by Legion, finishing on the winning side or not. From what I was told there probably wouldn't have been a Legion in round5 had these events not happened.


As for the rest of your post, I somewhat agree. I am only sorry that I actually played a little part in it happening :/

PS: WTF would have overrun you easily.

I presume you mean Wolfpack pre-r5. Regardless it wasnt a feasible action once Biggdogg and such went back to Legion and Tuba disbanded.

[Torz]

Originally posted by Zh|l
I presume you mean Wolfpack pre-r5. Regardless it wasnt a feasible action once Biggdogg and such went back to Legion and Tuba disbanded.

correct, but he is saying if BD and co never went back and I don't believe Tuba would have disbanded quite as quickly if it was WTF vs VE.

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by Torz
correct, but he is saying if BD and co never went back and I don't believe Tuba would have disbanded quite as quickly if it was WTF vs VE.

Agreed then. There wouldnt have been the Sid/BD link for starters (between Fury and Legion that is), and WTF would have been unstoppable at that point.

[Patrician]

Originally posted by Torz
correct, but he is saying if BD and co never went back and I don't believe Tuba would have disbanded quite as quickly if it was WTF vs VE.

Tuba would have disbanded regardless - And it disbanded quite a while before people started backstabbing each other.

As you have no knowledge whatsoever of the reasons behind the alliance folding, the above comment is bull****.

I find it amusing that people such as yourself believe an alliance which was on the 'wrong' side for most of its existance would baulk at a minute chance of being backstabbed (again you know nothing of the internal politics between Tuba and its allies)

If so - you are thinking of the wrong alliance.