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Unread 17 May 2004, 09:48   #51
Sonny
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuz
Jumpgate Probe This scan can be used if you have a fleet travelling from you to the target. It will reveal any other fleets traveling to the same target.
This scan costs 6000 of each resource.

When you spent 10mill res on scans, the score increased with 150k.. This mean the score of scans had to be twice the score from building ships..
Yes, my last calc was based on fleet anal, not jgp.
To recalc, with a JGP, being 6k res of each.

A jumpgate, costing 6000 of each res, gave you 60 XP.
You would then lose 18k of res. Which was a value drop of 90.
Then your score was calculated, you gained 60*6 score, and lost 90 score. Hence a gain of 270 score.

As opposed to spending that 18k of res on fleet, which would give you 180 score, after losing 90 score. Hence a gain of 90 score.

It was 3x your ship building.

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Unread 17 May 2004, 09:53   #52
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

hmm, you might be right

you get twice the score from scanning, but when u remove the score u loose from not having res, it's netto increase is 3x shipbuilding, ys
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Unread 17 May 2004, 09:56   #53
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Look, I think I know why you are so miguided in how to calc the score gained from scans.
It's simple economics.

If you buy something for $1, and sell it for $2, you make $1.
If you decide to up the prices, and you double your selling price. Hence $4, you have essentially made a 200% gross profit.
But the fact is, once you take off expenses. You actually made 300% nett profit.

For a game based on calculating numbers, I'm astounded as to how many people are incapable of performaing basic arithmetic.

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Unread 17 May 2004, 09:59   #54
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny
Look, I think I know why you are so miguided in how to calc the score gained from scans.
It's simple economics.

If you buy something for $1, and sell it for $2, you make $1.
If you decide to up the prices, and you double your selling price. Hence $4, you have essentially made a 200% gross profit.
But the fact is, once you take off expenses. You actually made 300% nett profit.

For a game based on calculating numbers, I'm astounded as to how many people are incapable of performaing basic arithmetic.

Cordially,
Sonny.
i said i got it in the thread above, hehe.
I studie math on university before christmas, so i do understand, just havent put too much thought into it, i have more listened to what people have said about it
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Unread 17 May 2004, 10:02   #55
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

You could be a creator.

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Unread 17 May 2004, 10:05   #56
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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You could be a creator.

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Sonny.
haha, that wasnt nice of you
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Unread 17 May 2004, 10:30   #57
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

lol but it made me laugh
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Unread 17 May 2004, 11:38   #58
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by waffle
50 times a seconds? Whoever said that?
I did. I could also have said 80 or 500 - I was merely using it as a figure of speech - I presumed that 50 times was a high enough number not to be taken as a serious estimation.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 11:49   #59
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuz
What about those not using a script? It's possible to do like 2-4 scans/secs manually, and it wasn't a bug that you guys gave suchs a high score for it.

And why take action now? Two days before the end? What about certain planets with 7-8mill score and 1mill value? If the admins say they havent seen that planet before now, i dont believe you.

How was this meeting when you found out to give 2x score for scanning than building ships?...
"We give twice the score for scanning than building ships, which means a planet with 2k roids can boost like a planet with 4k roids if he wants too. We don't expect this to make people scan alot." ???...

I told patema it was a possibilty. Unfortunatly the current multihunter tools cannot detect it which is why it took so long to find out why the game was dying a lot (spinner had to go to the server logs). The scan scores was to be addressed for next round. Round 11 quite rightly has the current development priority.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 11:51   #60
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by Leshy
I did. I could also have said 80 or 500 - I was merely using it as a figure of speech - I presumed that 50 times was a high enough number not to be taken as a serious estimation.
You of all people should know by now such things will be quoted, misquoted and handed in as official evidence
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Unread 17 May 2004, 14:40   #61
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Exclamation Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie
Furthermore Spinner was not aware of the fact scanning did give 3 times as much score.
Heh. Says it all, really.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 14:48   #62
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by Oghy
You of all people should know by now such things will be quoted, misquoted and handed in as official evidence
I have no official capacity, so people can misquote me all they want - it'll only make them look stupid
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Unread 17 May 2004, 15:54   #63
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

OK 2 points.

Ive stated already that ppl scanning by simply pressing the scan button manually IS legal, as long as that is all they do.

Now.
1) Its easy for ppl to say that I cant prove it so it doesnt happen. That is bullshit. I know it happens, infact several officers/hc in a certain alliance ahve used a script to access scans, especially in the early parts when scan planets were rare. I know this happened because I myslef had access to it, and I got a scan in less than a second from a planet whose owner was ofline. The fact that we couldnt prove it (i was with a multihunter at the time), doesnt mean it didnt happen, as it clearly did.

2) Ive heard stated that the best way to do without a script was to copy link into a seperate page and press GO loads of times.
This, however u look at, IS abuse. Its abusing something that isnt there for the game. Nowhere in any manual will u find something asking u to copy paste links and hammer them. (I could harp back now to an alliance that was opening a seperate browser to recall fleets early, its the same thing, its abusing the game by finding a way around it).

Im not stating which ppl used scripts or whatever, but clearly the game would not go down, simply by a gal of 10 ppl, who were doing it one at a time, scanning. It brought the game down, it wasnt thru normal use, and therefor it is an illegal action.

Quite simply, if u need to look to try different actions to get something to work, its not sposed to work, and considered abuse.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:02   #64
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

so what about those who just pressed scan button alot? i dont see any limits on amount of scans anywhere.. admins screwed up really this time.. maybe this game would have more players, if the admins and team respected the players..

im not furious and want all res back or anything, since it doesnt really matter to me what my score will be when this worst round ever ends, but i dont like the total lack of respect for players, when the team/admins are trying to handle situations like this..

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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:37   #65
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

those who just clicked, are still breaking the EULA. As stated earlier in the thread.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:45   #66
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by The_Fish
those who just clicked, are still breaking the EULA. As stated earlier in the thread.
how can they be, when there is no evidence that it was the cause of server problems, and if that is the only reason, why hasnt the planet with 7-8k launched been taken actions on earlier?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:46   #67
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
OK 2 points.

Ive stated already that ppl scanning by simply pressing the scan button manually IS legal, as long as that is all they do.

Now.
1) Its easy for ppl to say that I cant prove it so it doesnt happen. That is bullshit. I know it happens, infact several officers/hc in a certain alliance ahve used a script to access scans, especially in the early parts when scan planets were rare. I know this happened because I myslef had access to it, and I got a scan in less than a second from a planet whose owner was ofline. The fact that we couldnt prove it (i was with a multihunter at the time), doesnt mean it didnt happen, as it clearly did.

Im not stating which ppl used scripts or whatever, but clearly the game would not go down, simply by a gal of 10 ppl, who were doing it one at a time, scanning. It brought the game down, it wasnt thru normal use, and therefor it is an illegal action.
I'm sorry Forest, but you are wrong. You go try clicking your mouse about 5 times a second. It is clearly possible for someone to do this. Get off of the scripts idea, because we didn't use em. Get off of your high trip on catching cheaters.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:52   #68
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by fuz
how can they be, when there is no evidence that it was the cause of server problems, and if that is the only reason, why hasnt the planet with 7-8k launched been taken actions on earlier?
It's a bit of a coincidence that the servers kept dying when people were abusing the game and mass scanning.

Maybe its me being an idiot, but by my calculations, 2 days ago, had you spent all your resources, you would have been around 5m in the lead. Why didnt you do that? why mess everything up on something clearly risky and stupid?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:53   #69
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

just to make it clear, the 2nd paragraph is aimed at 22:8
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:56   #70
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by The_Fish
It's a bit of a coincidence that the servers kept dying when people were abusing the game and mass scanning.

Maybe its me being an idiot, but by my calculations, 2 days ago, had you spent all your resources, you would have been around 5m in the lead. Why didnt you do that? why mess everything up on something clearly risky and stupid?
we all now that 80-90% of the times servers has gone down, was before tick, 2-5mins, which is really a weird time to do mass-scanning.. unless u are attacking and are eager to find out if targets gets def, but then its allowed to mass jumpgate i guess. I dont see any evidence that this was caused bu the people scanning for XP
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Unread 17 May 2004, 16:59   #71
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

'we all now'

No we dont. Many times during the middle of the ticks yesterday my PA went down, for about 5 minutes, then would be back up for a while. This wasnt at the tick times, this was during all different times
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:05   #72
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
Maybe its me being an idiot, but by my calculations, 2 days ago, had you spent all your resources, you would have been around 5m in the lead. Why didnt you do that? why mess everything up on something clearly risky and stupid?
So you are saying we should have done this 2 days ago, and not yesterday? What the crap difference does it make if we did it 2 days ago, today, or wednesday morning.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:10   #73
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
'we all now'

No we dont. Many times during the middle of the ticks yesterday my PA went down, for about 5 minutes, then would be back up for a while. This wasnt at the tick times, this was during all different times
1min ago the game was down for 1-2mins again, without the massive scanners.. how weird, must be someone scanning alot without getting XP for it, or maybe th über crap servers is the reason for this, and not the scanning.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:15   #74
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

lol, while i tried to post that, it seems the forum-server has masive problems (big surprise), and game has been down 2 times last 10minutes.. what u gonna blame it on now pa-team?

people abusing the universe-page, by looking at it too often?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:17   #75
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

hi waffle

Spend the resources on ships, not scans, clearly. Better for you?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:25   #76
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

So server down or partly down for 15mins now, forum partly down for 10mins, and irc not good.. i hope pa-team is being dos'ed or something, or they will have something to explain to all those who scanned and now lost xp.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:43   #77
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

probably 22:8 doing the dosing :roll:
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Unread 17 May 2004, 17:59   #78
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

last week the scan system bvroke completely most probably due to mass scans. it in essence overloaded and no new scans were saved until it was reset - hence scanning has most defintly been breaking some things.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 18:05   #79
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

If I remember correctly a bug is anything not intended by the persons who made it. And I seriously doubt that the creators intended for anyone doing 2-5 scans a second even if they didn't use scripts, which I'm finding rather unlikely.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 18:12   #80
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

i reckon if u were scanning a gal for an alliance the most u could do is 2 per second ever (assuming u don;t save the scans anywhere there and then) - hence doing em faster than that is bad.

Now I have done some scanning for XP, but I did newsc scans and each scan was on a different planet, and I did leave long enough between each scan to skim read it. Some of it was actually interesting and/or funny - like people getting slaughtered and fun things like that. So I enjoyed doing my news scans (although I did get tired as my mouse arm couldn;t take it). but correct me if i'm wrong but is there any benefit to holding f5 on the scan page other than for XP... i certianly can;t read that fast
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Unread 17 May 2004, 18:16   #81
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
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forum partly down for 10mins, and irc not good
Forum server isn't ours so we don't control what else goes on on it. I think it's also used to host CS maps, so could be related to that.
IRC servers aren't ours - if you wish to enquire why they've been having problems (probably dodgy routing somewhere) please visit #feds.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 18:40   #82
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by Mouse
If I remember correctly a bug is anything not intended by the persons who made it. And I seriously doubt that the creators intended for anyone doing 2-5 scans a second even if they didn't use scripts, which I'm finding rather unlikely.
This is precisely the point that those using the excuse "It's possible to do like 2-4 scans/secs manually, and it wasn't a bug" don't see. When you click to scan several times a second, you can not possibly have time to view the results between scans. Therefore the only reason you are doing this is because you found it was a way to get rapid score. Therefore it is an exploit...pure and simple.

If you did a scan, got the results, did another scan, got the results, and so on, then there is nothing anyone can possibly say, as you were well within your rights and the guidelines of the game. But each of you that use the aforementioned excuse are openly admitting to blatant misuse of the system.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 19:03   #83
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

While it may be possible to scan 5 times in a second, it is manually impossible to scan 5 different planets in one second.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:13   #84
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by waffle
I'm sorry Forest, but you are wrong. You go try clicking your mouse about 5 times a second. It is clearly possible for someone to do this. Get off of the scripts idea, because we didn't use em. Get off of your high trip on catching cheaters.

1) reread my post.

2) read it again.

3) realise that what u did was against the spirit of the game (as admitted by your gal mates), unfair, broke a game that we couldnt access, and exploiting something that wasnt meant to happen.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:21   #85
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackal2112
Gerbie you come across hypocrite here. Wasn't it you last round who decided to just covert op resources all round to try to get the #1 position in the end by spending all your resources gained in the last couple of ticks? Yes you did; a valid strategy because the covert opping and resource capping formulas allowed it.
Yes I was the guy that cov opped like that.
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However after a couple of weeks PA team changed the formulas because they seemed to be 'unbalanced'.
Indd they did.
Quote:

- Spinner did not remove your resources you gained from what appaeared to be an 'imbalance' in the game. However you had time to use this 'imbalance' to gain a lot of resources for some reason Spinner thought it was okay just to change the formulas a bit; so what justifies taking away xp/resources this time?
They did take away my ability to get anywhere in the game though. I could only mine 50 roids max. So even if I built ships and started attacking I wouldn't have gotten far.
Quote:

- Spinner had been confronted with this but denied the fact this could be true. I wonder if he even bothered to verify this by testing this but I have to assume NO HE DID NOT. This makes me believe now that he actually found out it's true he took measures like remove peoples XP just to cover up for his own incompetence earlier when he should have investigated it.
You can't expect Spinner to do everything and follow every lead. It's not like he's got all the time in the world. It might be hard to believe, but he's human.
Quote:

- Didn't you store all the covert opped resources in the fund in R10? Yeah, and that's because Spinner knew he should put a cap on the resource fund but he didn't want to change it midround and affect a lot of players, why the hell would he do that now and 2 days before round end?
He did change things midround that effectively put me out of the round. Did I whine about it?
He did the right thing then and he's doing the right thing now. There won't be much of a round end with the servers down all the time.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:32   #86
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Jackel,

Gerbie used a legitimate tactic that had to be worked on hard. Making sure right targets, being able to scan at correct times.

These guys abused the game to grow big which took no work, could get them big pretty much when they wanted and was an exploitation.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:42   #87
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Forest - you're shooting yourself in the foot here.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:45   #88
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Barrow not at all.

Gerbies tactic was completely valid, though overpowered, which he admitted and which he agreed to the change without whining,

The ppl who got caught using the scan thing, were delieberetly exploiting.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 20:49   #89
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

As opposed to Gerbie - who did it accidentally?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 21:02   #90
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Now he did it on purpose, but he did it in a way that was part of the game.

Covert ops are part of the game.

Pressing f5 300 times repeatedly is not.

There really should be no discussion on that
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:05   #91
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Now I have done some scanning for XP, but I did newsc scans and each scan was on a different planet, and I did leave long enough between each scan to skim read it.
Christ Kal, you could atleast try to be honest. You've been abusing this for weeks.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:07   #92
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

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Originally Posted by The Kulz
Christ Kal, you could atleast try to be honest. You've been abusing this for weeks.
Wouldn't that be ironic?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:12   #93
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrow|Pony
Wouldn't that be ironic?
weeks? check the gal channel logs, WE didn't know about it for weeks, and I have barely logged into my account in the last week - and i actually did read my news scans as you would again know if u read the gal channel logs...

My point is that i have nothing against people doign lots of scans if they have some kind of use however small - its holding F5 I have a problem with.
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:19   #94
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

What happened then?
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:24   #95
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
weeks? check the gal channel logs, WE didn't know about it for weeks, and I have barely logged into my account in the last week - and i actually did read my news scans as you would again know if u read the gal channel logs...
hmm lets see, there's you telling us to stop building ships, you telling us we only need to scan one planet over and over, you telling us we can scan our way to the top, you telling us to keep it super top secret and not to tell another soul ever!
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:28   #96
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kulz
hmm lets see, there's you telling us to stop building ships, you telling us we only need to scan one planet over and over, you telling us we can scan our way to the top, you telling us to keep it super top secret and not to tell another soul ever!
Nope.. he never told us to scan one planet over and over again.. only that we should use 1 scan per planet, which shouldn't be a problem really..
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:32   #97
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Now he did it on purpose, but he did it in a way that was part of the game.

Covert ops are part of the game.

Pressing f5 300 times repeatedly is not.

There really should be no discussion on that
Scanning is part of the game, and that is what we did. We scanned planets.

And you're right, there really should be no discussion on that. .
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Unread 17 May 2004, 22:34   #98
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Nope.. he never told us to scan one planet over and over again.. only that we should use 1 scan per planet, which shouldn't be a problem really..
especially if u read the scans - which i might add are actually interesting if u comapre say news scnas on top 10 gals with really low ranked gals - people should have a look for themselves - although now i assume that would cost so know one will. But in general i found that being a top rnaked gal is about the same as a bottom ranked gal - nothing happens - i.e. u are bored out of your mind - the middle is where the action is. (it says something abotu my brian theese days that i needed to do news scans to work that out)
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Unread 19 May 2004, 01:38   #99
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

Playmates still win the game.

Nothing good came from the change. Only the angering of hundreds of players.
Whether you agree with the fact scanning was able to be used to get cheap score or not, means nothing. The fact was, that is how the game was opened to the public, and had been that way for rounds.

Playmates idled for 25% of the round, this can be verified by galaxy history graphs, and at the time we began idling we were almost 50% bigger than anyone else in the universe.

We chose to idle because we had no reason to put our ships in danger for losses which were to going to not help us get anywhere. We had already won, both in combat and in the greater sense of the round.

The twisting of the game by all those not on the top achieved nothing, although I applaud your attempts at trying to deny Playmates of their rightful #1 position.

Justice prevails.

Cordially,
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Unread 19 May 2004, 11:49   #100
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Re: MASSIVE abuse of Scanning

I welcome old score system back \o/
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