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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 14:35   #51
Blue_Esper
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
This is intentional, so that the odds of ziks ruining their fleets by stealing useless out-of-roidclass ships is lower. ZIks do have stealships that target every single class though.
well it'll be interesting to see how powerful ziks become due to only have 1 steal ship per attacking class
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 14:48   #52
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
How is war frigate not an effective counter?
Every race has a co->fi ship, should be plenty of opportunity to find allydef vs xan fi.

Totally agree with DE becoming weak later in the round, that's why I proposed giving cath a DE class pod and a DE->FI/CO.

I'm not averse to changing xans anti CR/BS ships, the spectre might be too good. I'll take a look at it. You got any suggestions?

Two possibilities;
Perhaps make Bomber init 9, Pillager init 8 and/or Wyvern init 6 and Spec init 7.

I'm kind of hesitant to make that second change because it would mean FR/DE gets totally stopped by Wyvs ingal.
War frigate is a defensive ship, im talking about attacking. not only are xans cloaked but they have some of the better defensive ships making an all xan alliance a very powerful choice in attacking and defending. Xan needs emp to hit if they build the right ships.
my suggestions would be as follows...
remove the targetting of Cr from Spectre and Init to 7 so it's a suicide def ship.
Make Rogue a steal ship as a zik with a pirate fleet would make a good team up for BS to hit xans with
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 15:39   #53
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
well it'll be interesting to see how powerful ziks become due to only have 1 steal ship per attacking class
This is pretty common.
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 15:44   #54
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
remove the targetting of Cr from Spectre and Init to 7 so it's a suicide def ship.
Noone would build spectre.

What I like about the spectre as it is now is that xans can potentially attack with fr + de and roid ters.
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 16:58   #55
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
As usual you guys keep making claims without any form of coherent arguments in then.
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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Because..... each bs fleet being able to solo three races isn't enough?
Cath can hit every race, ziks can hit only two races but have the possibility of stealing itself a great cr fleet.
What players look for when playing planetarion is the abilty to go and attack a target and have a decent defence tolerance to be able to land attacks.
If there are 1 fleet stoppers (as I call them) or defense fleets that get their cut in first this makes going this fleet less viable.

One isn't taking into account that the allies will go fr/de or fi/co with fr/de defence ships and how flaking ships will act in defense even with wyverns being 400 in damage v cost just add some hulls 2 xan defense and ter bs is unlandable. (See how ter BS is starting to look unattractive as an attack option most ters will go ter de +fi)
However guardians are fairly weak ~140% eff v Fr and ~110% v De and wouldn't take much fr/de flak (flak = fr/de class ships that don't fire at target ships but soak the emp/damage to allow the defense ships to fire back)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
the first thought coming to my mind is "how will i be able to land solo past tick 400!?"
This tends to make noobs more roidable and top players harder to roid... I would welcome isildurx to give his insight on how his stats will be interpreted by the alliance HCs that will make the call on their alliance strategies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
How would you improve the cr/bs fleets then?
I've already suggested how to improve Bs/Cr
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...7&postcount=24

by putting in more Holes in how fr/de and bs/cr interact with each other but this would make fr/de spaming less practical

If you want to look at historical stats for bs/cr v fr/de balance R38 was a decent round for this.
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=38
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 17:38   #56
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Efficiencies ae by no means set in stone, I'll probably give the Guardian a nice buff for sure.

One thing people often fail to grasp is that even though races on paper are strong versus both class X and Y, in practice they have to decide which one to be strong against as they simply don't have enough resources to prod enough ships against both of them. This is especially true with this set of stats where many of the stronger defships aren't in roidclasses.


I'll also look into possibly raising the efficiency of the Wyvern
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Unread 10 Feb 2014, 17:57   #57
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would welcome isildurx to give his insight on how his stats will be interpreted by the alliance HCs that will make the call on their alliance strategies.
This all depends what kind of round alliances want to play, if there is to be a focus on being strong offensively or being harder to roid.

The way I see it, the most likely combos for the different races are;

Terran:
CRBS + Nixes
DE + Harps
DE + Wyvs

The war frigate could be in addition to all these three strategies.

Cathaar:
CO + DE
CO + CR/BS

Xan:
FI + FR
FICO + DE

ZIk:
DE + FI
DE + BS
CR + DE
CRBS + FI

ETD:
FR + FICO
FR + DE/FI
FR + DE/BS
CO + BS + Paladin


These combos leaves alliances with a wealth of possibly race-combos to choose between. I'd say the most exciting ones are;

Cat/Zik - co + crbs
Pure Xan FI
Ter/Etd CO + DE/BS
Xan/ETD FI/CO + FR
Ter/ETD FI + Paladin/Gryph + BS

In addition to this you have ships like Pirate, Broadsword, War Frigate and Defender who all could be great backbones for a roidfleet if the right pods are stolen with covops.

In addition to this, these stats should be excellent for faking. Every single race has good faking options with their two podclasses.
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 22:08   #58
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

My problem is Co only targets Fi/co Except for Viper. So unless you intend on making more Co target De you should remove the Co targeting from De Fleets.

Edit: Also Since only Xan fi has a damage dealing fi vs Co why is Beetle T1 Fi when terran/zik/etd/XAN all have Co that targets for damage. It just makes Cath co REALLY weak.
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 22:17   #59
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Those are both valid point, will look into it

Maybe make the corsair a CO T1=DE stealship?
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 22:46   #60
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I would say you have 2 options:

1) Remove Co from Thief and Peg and leave cath Co as it is.

2) Revamp Co to be more than just a def class.
Phoenix T1 De T2 Co Init 10
Harpy T1 Fi T2 De
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 22:50   #61
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I'd rather just swap targetting on the beetle and do the change to the corsair i proposed.
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Unread 11 Feb 2014, 23:44   #62
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Wink Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I would say you have 2 options:

1) Remove Co from Thief and Peg and leave cath Co as it is.

2) Revamp Co to be more than just a def class.
Phoenix T1 De T2 Co Init 10
Harpy T1 Fi T2 De

I would say there is one option, don't listen to Tia. Round 55 stats show he has no clue.

Stats are looking ok Isil, I'd offer up suggestion but too many cooks and all that. Just go with what you think is best, they are YOUR stats after all.

Xan fi looks proper good though, even more if you swap beet targeting \o/
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 05:42   #63
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Kai, Lets just get this strait, you don't have a problem with r55 stats, you have a problem that my name was the one that made them. Because if I had changed my nick and made the same stats you would have liked them.


So please if you have Sh*t you want to say to me please say it but keep your opinions about stats factual and with a point.
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 08:00   #64
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Kai, Lets just get this strait, you don't have a problem with r55 stats, you have a problem that my name was the one that made them. Because if I had changed my nick and made the same stats you would have liked them.


So please if you have Sh*t you want to say to me please say it but keep your opinions about stats factual and with a point.

Actually I along with a large amount of other people don't like your stats. Please check around the forums for this.

This is Isil's set and after the woeful last couple of sets you have made/offered I would suggest you stay well clear with your suggestions, Isil doesn't want his set cursed by a Jonah of pa stats.
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 08:11   #65
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

If his suggestions are so bad, you should easily be able to provide arguments against them without resorting to personal attacks. In fact, your posts in general would be vastly improved if you used fewer personal slurs and insulting nicknames.
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 08:42   #66
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I don't his criticism of the stats was misplaced, I didn't agree with his proposed changes though. I'm going to look into the fico targetting balance sometime soon.
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 16:17   #67
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I still think tia should not do the stats for at least 5 rounds as he has had several turns at it. I would welcome players like Isildurx who haven't done them before to have a go.
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 17:17   #68
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well to be fair, I have been heavily involved in several prior sets
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 17:37   #69
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Would like feedback on these possible changes;

Corsair class = CO (instead of FI), T1=DE T2= None, Init = 19
Lancer class = FI (instead of CO), T1= CO T2 = FI Init = 6

What these changes would accomplish is that the anti fico targetting is more spread out over both fi class and co class, and we have more than one co class ship targetting DE.

Additionally this weakens Xan FI(which was looking fearsome), however, wraiths being sent in defence can be countered by sending along wraiths.

What do people think about this?
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Unread 12 Feb 2014, 17:49   #70
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Would also like feedback on the following possible changes;

Wyvern init = 6 instead of 7 (Wyvern would probably need a drop in D/C)
Spectre init = 7 instead of 6
Pillager init = 8 instead of 9
Bomber init = 9 instead of 8

What this accomplishes is that;
- ziks can attack xans without spectre
- Ter BS can solo xan, but will struggle vs xans who have a lot of value in fr AND de
- xan gets a real weakness against another class than FI only
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Unread 13 Feb 2014, 16:18   #71
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Was waiting for other folk to reply before commenting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Would like feedback on these possible changes;

Corsair class = CO (instead of FI), T1=DE T2= None, Init = 19
Lancer class = FI (instead of CO), T1= CO T2 = FI Init = 6

What these changes would accomplish is that the anti fico targetting is more spread out over both fi class and co class, and we have more than one co class ship targetting DE.

Additionally this weakens Xan FI(which was looking fearsome), however, wraiths being sent in defence can be countered by sending along wraiths.

What do people think about this?
My experience with 0 loss defence ships is to keep it emp... lancer having t2 kill on fi especially with the lower armour xan has.

Giving viper a t2 Fr targeting is a possibilty but then would create a 3 ship spam solution for cath being a downside.
Giving ranger a t2 Fr targeting would also be another example of 0 loss emping.
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Unread 13 Feb 2014, 20:27   #72
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Actually I along with a large amount of other people don't like your stats. Please check around the forums for this.

This is Isil's set and after the woeful last couple of sets you have made/offered I would suggest you stay well clear with your suggestions, Isil doesn't want his set cursed by a Jonah of pa stats.
If ya got a problem just say so when the stats come out.
What you are doing at this point is purely childish (not to mention pointless)
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Unread 13 Feb 2014, 20:31   #73
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
Was waiting for other folk to reply before commenting.



My experience with 0 loss defence ships is to keep it emp... lancer having t2 kill on fi especially with the lower armour xan has.

Giving viper a t2 Fr targeting is a possibilty but then would create a 3 ship spam solution for cath being a downside.
Giving ranger a t2 Fr targeting would also be another example of 0 loss emping.
Why are you talking about ships tarhetting fr?
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Unread 13 Feb 2014, 23:30   #74
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Why are you talking about ships tarhetting fr?
examples of how to make emp ships 0 loss, most players dont like 0 loss defence on their attacks im not saying impliment them
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Unread 14 Feb 2014, 16:25   #75
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
examples of how to make emp ships 0 loss, most players dont like 0 loss defence on their attacks im not saying impliment them
As a new player and its understandable if you disregard all after this sentence. I would have to concur with the above quote. It seems FR has had a challenge this round with scarabs getting free reign on the FR ship class in terms of defence. Granted the option to incorporate anti DE into a FR wave is valid though it became more viable to try and out produce what scarabs could freeze rather than trying to incorporate a different ship type.

It feels from a new playerís perspective that the stats are trying to make for a more level playing field for newer chaps. You all know that new players build erratically and build as many ships of different names as they can (myself included) until their respective alliances sit them down and talk to them about the Caths and the Xans and where baby ETDís come from. The end result is that the seasoned players focus all their resources into a type and latter half of the game has sheer numbers to steam role over everything. For new players who spent the first half diluting their resources into everything there is little hope to challenge top players.

Though looking at these ship stats it looks as if you are trying to force more dilution between the different ships. Yes seasoned players will still be able to identify the right ones and build accordingly but their resources will still be split between 4-5 ships rather than 3-4 making them strong still but leaves them with still a sense of vulnerability that will make it friendlier to newer players. Yes there are still races out there that can be played with minimal ship types as was pointed out to me, a Cath Cr fleet of only Roach teamed with a Zik Cr fleet of only Rogue currently looks rather lovely as an attack fleet choice and a pain to defend against.

With regards to ship stats being either loved or hated its really much harder than I think many realise since every round youíre striving to inject some originality and not be referred to as a carbon copy of a previous round. Thatís got to be a complete nightmare to undertake and whilst I have no idea how to interpret the stats yet, might I recommend that when you finalise them you write effectively an idiots guide to understanding them. It may prove more beneficial as it could help provide more feedback in forums such as this.

Caution this part is of noobian quality: A concept I had if you are truly looking for a means to prevent the spamming of certain ships and create multi type waves then why not restrict the ship amounts (this is possibly an idea better suited for a mini round)? Give everyone 1x of each type ship but donít allow the cross defence.

i.e.

FR only targets FI and CR
DE only targets CO and BS
FI only targets CO and DE
CO only targets FI and FR
Etc, hopefully you get the idea

Then say for example a Terran has to launch both the FR and the DE ship together to protect it. So if you make the roider for Ter a DE, they would launch a DE fleet but would also be forced to produce an FR escort since the DE wonít target what hunts it. It would also be important to make sure that one race is not the answer to one race. So a Cath Co can be the answer to the FR but the Cath Fi would be the ill advised response to the DE. This would further the enforce dilution of resources and granted make bcalcs filled with more headaches.

Then with Team ups a Ter launches the DE fleet and lets say an ETD lanches its FR roiding fleet. So the option is there to build one type fleets per race but it still forces multi type attack and defence waves.

Crazy idea and you can tell Iím new canít you (^^,)
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Unread 14 Feb 2014, 17:24   #76
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Nice first post... Cheers for your insight.

taking r55 stats is it usually better to have emp 0 loss rather than 0 loss kill as you dont lose value directly.

Best bet is to find an alliance and copy their alliance strategy.
If you are stuck with tick plan / how to start a round I have some expertise on this either drop me a pm on forums or irc
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Unread 15 Feb 2014, 19:00   #77
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

It was in my ramblings contained with a PM to Paisley that I stumbled across an idea that could spice things ups for a future round. Again with my inexperience and lack of knowledge on previous rounds this idea may have already been trialled and found unwanted but I will mention it anyway and try to explain as best as I can the concept behind it.

Covop is an interesting portion of the game however I can't help but feel that its something that has been written out, since I have yet to find someone five times my size that I could actually covop. Then I noticed the anti structure ships that seem to play such a small portion of the game, at least I have not seen one fleet all round with any in. Yet when I peruse the Universe stats I see that there is a decent armada of them available.

So then during mid message this concept arrived at my fingertips. Replace anti structure ships with a new type. Troop Ships. These would be one use only ships to avoid abuse of the new game mechanic. Now the concept behind the troop ship would be that instead of targeting structures they crash land and deploy ground forces that combat the target planets security guards and kill them off dependant on some random formulae, probably the same rate at the steal guard covop except you don't gain guards. Should the case be that there are no more guards on the planet, the left over value is then done to take out structures. But either way those troop ships won't come back.

Just like in covop missions it does the check vs the targets alert rating, sec centres etc etc... these bypass that because they need to get through the enemy defence first. This would add a new dynamic to the universe and create more advanced fleet movements that would bring the top players of the alliance into joint strategies with the bottom members.

I.E. I believe Spore has broken free and won R55 (congrats, its always nice to know your stolen roids went to the winning team) and Vikings look to take 2nd but no where near enough time to wrestle first place. So I will use these two chaps as the example.

Spore in the lead and Vikings launch an all out attack to FC Spore's top player to try and claim the number one spot. We are into the dying last ticks of the round and neither fleets are backing down and after a massive battles the scores are just within reach of each other with Spore just in the lead. Then all of the sudden the lowest ranking member of Vikings launches that covop ship steal hitting that bonus 5x value difference and deals a heavy blow. With spore preoccupied with the FC they were unable to defend against the massive troop ship numbers sent to all their other planets and a string of covop mission ensue across the galaxy that helps Vikings steal #1 at the last few ticks.

I am told that at some point or another everyone will crash, but with this dynamic those members without a decent fleet left can still feel like they can contribute and it would open up the covop joy again. The easy way would be to over hire guards but then that brings in the decisions of do I hire to many to survive the wave to fire them after (waste resources) or do I try to hire replacement guards quicker than they can press launch covop mission.

Now I appreciate that this is a very long post but I believe its still in keeping with your aims of wanting to see the multitype waves. Since the existing anti structure ships are always of a different class to the roiding fleet. So again it would force the requirement to utilise different ship types.

I'll keep quiet now (^^,)
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Unread 16 Feb 2014, 23:11   #78
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Seriously, one reply re: the two proposed changes? You lotalays whine that stats aren't being done early enough, yet when feedback is wanted you're al oysters :\
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Unread 17 Feb 2014, 15:07   #79
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Probably going to be making some changes to the stats today, just fyi.
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Unread 17 Feb 2014, 16:55   #80
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

In the hope of adressing some of the concerns re: defensive stats and some other minor complaints, I'm planning to implement the following changes tonight;

Phoenix: Used to be class=CO T1=CO T2 = FI | Now class= FI, T1=CO T2= FR
Wyvern: Used to have: Init = 7 | Now: Init= 6

Spider: Used to be: EMP anti CO | Now: Type= Normal Init=8 Target = FR
Scarab: Used to be: Type = Normal Init =6 | Now: type = EMP Init = 1

Bomber: Used to be Init = 8 | Now: Init = 9
Spectre: Used to be init = 6 | Now: Init = 7
Broadsword: Used to be init = 7 | Now: Init = 6

Corsair: Used to be Class = FI T1=DE T2=FR Init = 20 | Now: Class = CO, T1=DE, Init = 19
Clipper: Used to be init = 7 | Now init = 8
Pillager: Used to be init = 9 | Now init = 8

Ranger: Used to be init = 1 | Now init = 2
Dealer: Used to be T1=DE Type = Steal Init = 20 | Now: T1= CR T2=DE Type = Normal Init=7
Investor: Used to be Type= Normal Init = 8 | Now: Type = Cloaked Init=5
Tycoon: Used to be type= cloaked | NOw: Type = Normal
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Unread 17 Feb 2014, 17:12   #81
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

These changes should lead to every* class being good at attacking, especially with a teamup.

There should be ample opportunities for faking

Every race can choose from, at least, two vastly different fleet compositions


* The real exception is DE, but DE is the strongest class defensively
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Unread 18 Feb 2014, 11:48   #82
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well this is a biased review for the Zik side of things, partly because I intend to go Zik next round and partly because I am new and don't want to melt my brain any further. (^^,)

In trying to look at the Zik roiding classes it appears to me that the DE fleet seem to have decent odds vs Ter so long as they don't have any BS fleet otherwise things get painful quickly. Cath is another option for no loss roiding providing you can break that EMP wall but Cath usually gets defence because of the easy salvage option.

For Team up option is looks like a split of ZIK Thief with TER Drake and Gryphon will help bolster the team, giving them more oomph. Aside from that the DE option doesn't really look that appealing but I suppose thats intentional due to the nature of the ZIK CR fleet.

As a solo option the odds look favourable to take on fellow ZIK's and again dependant on ther targets build plot TER and ETD. What makes this really strong is the team up with Cath with the even split of Cat Roach and Zik Rouge, creating a very powerful combo to contend with.

Though due to the nature of the race the CO class looks like its just another team up waiting to happen. Building the CO class for Zik and either through covop or a lucky defence, you will have a lovely CO roiding fleet to team up once again with Cath who would relish the notion of ZIK joining to put that fear of loss into their attack wave.

So whilst DE seems to be a bit lack lustre for ZIK you have really strong CR potential with focus on a CO defence fleet that could switch into another roiding fleet when required.

Verdict.... I like it (^^,) nice changes
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Unread 18 Feb 2014, 12:06   #83
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Zik De is the worst roiding fleet, no doubt, but zik could potentially steal some de to strengthen its DE fleet. Zik CR could be really good, and I think, overall, zik is a very appealing race for next round.
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 17:51   #84
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I think the last few changes you made have vastly improved balance across the stats.

Your own analysis seems to be pretty accurate. Every fleet seems to be able to roid quite well, excluding De which will have a harder time. This is compensated with De being targeted t1 very little, though the Fireblade may prevent them from being too viable.

Cr/Bs might be having a hard time with Etd Fr around, even with EMP - Xan/Etd Fr seems a pretty good combo (incredible fakes), only being hampered by its weakness to Fi/Co.

Fi/Co on the other hand (Cat/Xan) will be strong as long as there aren't too many Terrans. You handled it a much better way than the current stats did, by making the anti-Fi ship an off-class for Ter. Whether this allows Fi to be viable without Cat Co freezing Fr (and without Etd having a means to Fi pods) remains to be seen.

Ter will have a lot of trouble landing attacks with ships like Spectre/BWidow, Rogue, and Investor for Bs and Fireblade plus Harpy/Banshee for De. Defensively, Harpy+De is really strong, but opting for Bs should give you an offensive advantage, which I don't really see with the anti-Bs ships above around.

As for Zik, I don't see people going De except for those looking to supplement Ter De to get through Harpies, which could in theory be done by mixing/faking in War Frigates anyway. Its only real use to me seems to steal Cat Cr, everything else will be focussed on Cr/Cutlass.

Cath's strength will largely depend on the race choice of the universe. Are EMP efficiencies done?

tl;dr -
Strong: Etd/Xan Fi/Fr, Ter Fi/De forts, Zik Cr/Bs,
Weak: Zik De, Etd Bs
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 19:45   #85
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

No efficiencies are done, I am more than willing to listen to any and all comments re: those.

I think BS teamups can be really strong, a bit dependent on how the universe shapes up racewise, and there should be ample opportunities to fake as well.

One thing I've thought about, should the difference in cost between the different classes be lower so that faking is easier?
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 20:34   #86
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

It can go both ways... High differences = lower risk faking, small differences = easier to land and roid on def/Cath with the fake. It depends on what you want races/fleets to be able to do.

Harpy being this cheap makes Harpy+De pretty good - right now if you built 1:1:1:1 value, you'd end up with ~15:1:1:1 meaning you can EASILY fake whole your fleet twice. Even 1:2:2:2 value you'd be able to.

Bs is weak imo because of Investor. Any ship that has 2 ticks to be found, fires first AND is cloaked is going to be an issue.

Edit: If nothing else, I'd make the Dealer/Investor cheaper (easier to EMP relatively) and/or Ranger more expensive.

Last edited by Patrikc; 20 Feb 2014 at 20:43.
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 20:51   #87
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I think Ter DE is pretty weak, so it being able to be faked isn't a huge deal imo. I dropped the emp resistance of the investor quite a bit now.
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 20:59   #88
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

One more thing, how do you think the DE are balanced? Are their armor too high, too low damage eff? Don't want to make DE planets impossible to roid.
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 21:28   #89
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Oh, I wasn't implying Ter's ability to fake was too strong, simply pointing out an example of how strong cheap Fi can make a race. If you'd make the harpy cost 25-30% of De, it would hurt their ability to fake defensively.

Their effs seem to fine to me, considering they fire second in most instances.

Also, I absolutely despised this round's race-resource disparity, specifically the Thief costing 450/450/600. I must have traded over 20m E over the last 500 ticks. I see a lot of your ships have around the same ratio; does it really need to be so steep?
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 22:49   #90
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

With these changes I am (and I'm sure everyone else will be too) in love with xan and etd fr. But looking over the stats I see the phantom has an emp res of 2, typo? Was supposed to be 20? Or lowest emp res ever
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 22:56   #91
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Oh, I wasn't implying Ter's ability to fake was too strong, simply pointing out an example of how strong cheap Fi can make a race. If you'd make the harpy cost 25-30% of De, it would hurt their ability to fake defensively.

Their effs seem to fine to me, considering they fire second in most instances.

Also, I absolutely despised this round's race-resource disparity, specifically the Thief costing 450/450/600. I must have traded over 20m E over the last 500 ticks. I see a lot of your ships have around the same ratio; does it really need to be so steep?
I think that is one of the worst things to happen in stats (apart from Tia ) in the last 6 rounds. I enjoyed when mz brought back the huge rise in CR/BS costs because it gave a real sense of strength but gradually too i have notice a jump in the costing which leads to large amounts of trading. Please edit these Isil too make it less of a pain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadoc
With these changes I am (and I'm sure everyone else will be too) in love with xan and etd fr. But looking over the stats I see the phantom has an emp res of 2, typo? Was supposed to be 20? Or lowest emp res ever
I beleive there has been a few rounds when the lowest Xan Fi ship has had 0 emp res so no, 2 is quite high
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 23:35   #92
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Even if your income is exactly balanced, but your ships cost 33% more of 1 resource than of the other 2, you still only lose 0.99% of your income to the fund in trade taxes. And those resources aren't even lost, they just allow HCs to lower the alliance tax rate.

(income = spending
xM + xC + xE = yM + yC + 1.33yE
3x = 3.33y
y = 0.9009x
trade = 2 * (1 - 0.9009) = 0.1982
0.1982 * 0.05 = 0.0099 = 0.99% "lost" in tax)
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Unread 20 Feb 2014, 23:55   #93
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

They are lost, though - my alliance is heavy on Zik, so we need to trade M/C into E a lot, which costs 10% of the resources traded.

I'm all for keeping the race (or type) specific resource costs, but a small change from 450/450/600 to 475/475/550 makes enough of a difference. I see it as a balance between needing extra Refineries of a type and wasting resources trading with the fund/universe, and it's currently too far to the latter.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 07:52   #94
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

The cheaper the ship the lower the emp res, it's not a typo.

If you look at the stats Kaiba you see that normal/emp/steal ships costs ~25% more metal/crystal/eon respectively.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 07:55   #95
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
With these changes I am (and I'm sure everyone else will be too) in love with xan and etd fr.
FR is great offensively, no doubt, but going FR also leaves you open to just about every type of inc.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 08:31   #96
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
The cheaper the ship the lower the emp res, it's not a typo.

If you look at the stats Kaiba you see that normal/emp/steal ships costs ~25% more metal/crystal/eon respectively.
I looked at the stats, for example if i wanted to build 1k Pegasus i would need to make 150k more metal a tick than crystal or enoium to be able to do this without trading. As most alliances will most likely picking 2 races as their strategy this will cause significant drain on alliance funds via trading because to achieve that offeset you would need ridiculously stacked roids or to waste vast amount of cons in your desired .

As Patrikc said why dont you change for example from 600 450 450 to 550 475 475, this makes your chances off affording ships without wasting large amounts of resources from trading. I actually see this a real advantge to Xan atm as they dont need to waste 5-10% of round resources into trading with funds. Thats a large chunk of value over a round, especially when Xan is very playable for once.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 09:20   #97
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
They are lost, though - my alliance is heavy on Zik, so we need to trade M/C into E a lot, which costs 10% of the resources traded.
So that's 10% of 66.67% of that 0.99%. Why are we still talking about this?
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 09:49   #98
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
So that's 10% of 66.67% of that 0.99%. Why are we still talking about this?
You've even opened up a thread titled "Nagging over tiny things".

It's a tiny thing that's easily changed. It annoys me. I'm nagging. I'd like to see it changed.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 10:24   #99
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Yeah I see now Kaiba that ziks are well-balanced in terms of cost while Ter and Cat require a bit too much C/M, I'll fix it.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 10:40   #100
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

There, E/M/C costs have been evened out a bit now. Now they should all be 20-25% higher.
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