Nice article regarding the US and UK

[Vanilla]

I HOPE that the continent of Europe never again needs help from the
United States of America. I hope that there's never some murderous
little tyrant - another Hitler, another Milosevic - that Europe needs
help in taming. I hope that there's never some economic catastrophe that
requires American dollars to make it right, as they did at the end of
the Second World War.

I hope that the euro experiment works. I hope that all those
peace-loving souls in Belgium, Germany and France can somehow muster an
army to protect themselves. I hope that the continent I live on never
again needs to go cap in hand to the Americans. Because if that black
day ever comes, I have the feeling that America might just tell Europe
where to go.

On the eve of war, there is a tangible anger in America. But
surprisingly little of it is directed against the Iraqis. It is the
French who are detested.

"This is all about oil," the Brits hear all the time. And Americans
think it is "all about oil" too. The $50 billion worth of oil contracts
that France has with Iraq. In American eyes, that is why the French are
so keen to avoid war.

Anti-French feeling in the United Kingdom is never more than a passing
fancy, a jokey bit of "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter. Not in America.

The cafeteria in the House of Representatives no longer serves French
fries - chips to you and me, guvnor. Now they sell something called
"freedom fries". That sounds nuts - and of course it is.

But when a furious Congresswoman presents a "bring home our dead" bill
demanding that the 75,000 American men and boys who died in France
during two world wars be dug up and brought home, you realise that this
is more than "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter.

Congresswoman Ginny Brown-Waite says, "The remains of our brave
servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not in a country that has
turned its back on the US and on the memory of Americans who fought and
died there."

That's the difference between the British and the Americans. We do not
feel that the British casualties in two world wars died to liberate the
French. We believe that we were fighting for our nation's survival. Just
like the Russians. It is different for Americans.

Throughout the 20th century, through two world wars and one Cold War,
America gave all the blood and money Europe needed to keep it free. They
feel that the current crisis has proved that Europeans are, when all is
said and done, an ungrateful bunch of Euro bastards who do not give a
flying baguette about the 75,000 American graves in Europe.

Anti-European feeling goes right across the board of public opinion,
even among the millions of Americans who are passionately against
attacking Iraq. America is united in feeling betrayed by Europe. America
is finally starting to understand that - to Europe's eternal shame -
there is an opinion that 9/11 was America's comeuppance. Secretaries and
waiters leaping from the top of the burning twin towers? The fault of
American arrogance. A terrified four-year-old girl cowering at the back
of a hijacked plane? Blame it on America's support for Israel. A
stewardess with her throat slit by a carpet cutter? One in the eye for
American imperialism. Those 3,000 dead, murdered on live television?
Europe blames America. When 9/11 happened, you might have expected to
see Palestinians dancing in the street. But who would have expected the
grim look of satisfaction on the faces of old Europe?

But the British are absolved of Europe's sins. Those who are against the
war admire Britain because we had a peace march where one million people
filled the streets. Those for the war admire Britain because Tony Blair
has been a true friend to America. And although the man on the M25 might
make jibes about Blair being a "poodle", among American hawks our Prime
Minister is seen as dangerously strong-willed. There is a school of
opinion in America that believes the war could have been over by last
Christmas if Tony Blair had not been so keen on proceeding through the
correct diplomatic channels. Nobody calls Tony Blair a poodle in the
USA.

It has been good to be British in America these past few weeks. For
America has been reminded that Britain is the best friend it has in the
world, joined by blood, language, history, instinct and culture. When
will the British wake up from their pathetic little dreams of being
Europeans and realise that we have been looking for our future in all
the wrong places? Who wants to be European today? Who wants to be an
ungrateful, unprincipled, two-faced, pacifist, Euro-grasping, oil-hungry
Lilliputian? No matter what happens over the coming days and weeks, it
is true what they say. The English Channel is far wider than the
Atlantic.

Unfortunately i don't have the source

[wu_trax]

what exactly is 'nice' about that article?

[Apothos]

Originally posted by wu_trax
what exactly is 'nice' about that article?

The grammer and spelling make a pleasant change for this board. :)

[elefant]

Originally posted by Vanilla
Unfortunately i don't have the source

Great another one of those anti-European articles from a Murdoch paper.

[ChubbyChecker]

The problem with Americans (generally speaking) is that on the whole they are ignorant of the world outside of America. Not out of stupidity or anything like that, just out of sheer lack of interest.

That's why when something bad happens (eg 9/11) that makes them take notice they often do not react in an appropriate manner. The current anti-French feeling is a good example of inappropriate reaction.

Some people would say the war in Iraq is another good example of this.

[Slidey]

interesting article. i think its probably right too..

[Woof]

I remember reading that, I think possibly it could have been a Daily Mirror editoral.

[Mong]

Do a search on "Roper Study". This recent study showed something like 80% of young americans questioned thought that the UK was in the middle east.

Hohum...

M.

[Slidey]

how young ?

[Mong]

Originally posted by Slidey
how young ?

Old enough that they should know better.

I suppose I should find a source...

M.

[Mong]

In the United States, 83 percent of young adults could not find Afghanistan on a blank map of the world, despite the devastating 9/11 attacks on the U.S. and the subsequent media spotlight on the Middle East and Central Asia. More young Americans in the Roper study knew that the island featured in last season's TV show "Survivor" is in the South Pacific than could find Israel.

[Hardin]

to Europe's eternal shame -
there is an opinion that 9/11 was America's comeuppance. Secretaries and waiters leaping from the top of the burning twin towers? The fault of American arrogance. A terrified four-year-old girl cowering at the back of a hijacked plane? Blame it on America's support for Israel. A stewardess with her throat slit by a carpet cutter? One in the eye for American imperialism. Those 3,000 dead, murdered on live television? Europe blames America.

Yes...and?

The sooner the US realises Israel and it current leadership is more of a liability than an asset the sooner the Middle East issues can be resolved.

Oh yes America says - 'Israel is our only ally in the Middle East' -

Don't you think they might have a few more if they took a more reasonable line? Israel is using the US for all it can get!

Why not tell Sharon - "No more aid until u stop building settlements on Palestinian land. No more aid until u start taking the peace process seriously. No more aid until you stop treating Palestinains as third class citizens.

Yes the Palestinians aint angels...but they live as an oppressed group...you have to expect their reaction. Its the same as what's happening in Iraq...sending in tank's will just breed more terrorists. Just as Israel breeds terror so shall Iraq.

US media is one of the most sanitised and biased in the world. I know its supposedely the 'land of the free' but u shud actually compare the world news American get with what Europeans get. It just doesn't compare. And the networks aka big business Rupert Murdoch et al want to keep it that way.

Why do the American criticise the French...U would think the French and the Germans know a few things about war...and have learned a few things about it having had it devastate their countries twice in the last century. That is why the set up the EU - too avoid war.

They helped when they needed too i.e Kuwait in 1991...but why attack them when they dont back a war that is really unjustified. Just because your friend decides to beat up a little kid across the street doesn't mean you should help him if you think he is being a bully!

US under George Bush has gone around ripping up international treaties and now they throw toys out of pram when French/Germans refuse to help in unjustfied war.

Ofc...Only reason French aren't helping is coz they have their own oil interests...well maybe...but who decided to dig that up and shove it under everyones faces?... The US/Murdoch/Anti-european media... It saddens me that so many people swallow these stories and don't put them in context or realise the media's own biases.

[elefant]

and btw, France dont have any oil contracts with Iraq. 0,2 % of all exports from France went to Iraq.

[Apothos]

Originally posted by elefant
and btw, France dont have any oil contracts with Iraq. 0,2 % of all exports from France went to Iraq.

Didnt France and Russia have multi-billion € contracts to develop the oil fields?

[Slidey]

Originally posted by Hardin
Yes...and?

Why do the American criticise the French...U would think the French and the Germans know a few things about war...and have learned a few things about it having had it devastate their countries twice in the last century. That is why the set up the EU - too avoid war.

they know a few things about losing wars..

They helped when they needed too i.e Kuwait in 1991...but why attack them when they dont back a war that is really unjustified. Just because your friend decides to beat up a little kid across the street doesn't mean you should help him if you think he is being a bully!

If that kid across the street has a bunch of friends with guns, who use chemical weapons to kill millions of smaller people elsewhere in his neighbourhood i guess you stand by and let him?

US under George Bush has gone around ripping up international treaties and now they throw toys out of pram when French/Germans refuse to help in unjustfied war.

unjustified - no. see previous point.
removing a ruthless dictator from a minority party, who has killed a million of his own people using at times weapons of mass distruction no less, is justified.

Ofc...Only reason French aren't helping is coz they have their own oil interests...well maybe...but who decided to dig that up and shove it under everyones faces?... The US/Murdoch/Anti-european media... It saddens me that so many people swallow these stories and don't put them in context or realise the media's own biases.

why does it matter who dug it up? Saddam also got his first nuclear stuff from the french too

[Apothos]

France and Russia maintain they already have multi-billion dollar contracts to develop Iraq’s oil fields. Russia’s energy minister on Thursday continued to defend his country’s oil interests in Iraq, saying it would insist that Russian oil company contracts with Baghdad be honored after the shooting stops.

msnbc tho, so i dunno... :?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/891665.asp

[Slidey]

if i remember rightly, iraq owes russia about 10 billion (i think it was quoted in $)

[Scoot951]

Tbh, I think we deserve the way Europe treats us, at times.

[Nodrog]

that article is stupid.

When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

_____

'Nuff Said God Bless America

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by SlamDunk
When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building by George Bush.

He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return."

It became very quiet in the room.

Noone laughed?

[queball]

And enough to build the occasional military base.

[Vanilla]

Found the source in case anyone is interested.

It was written by Tony Parsons (<3) for the mirror.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by queball
And enough to build the occasional military base.

We have to give that land back when we leave though.

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Vanilla
I HOPE that the continent of Europe never again needs help from the
United States of America. I hope that there's never some murderous
little tyrant - another Hitler, another Milosevic - that Europe needs
help in taming. I hope that there's never some economic catastrophe that
requires American dollars to make it right, as they did at the end of
the Second World War.

Yes, WWII...of course if the Axis forces had won in the European theatre then the Reich would have been carried to America. That takes care of the altruism bollocks I believe.

I hope that the euro experiment works. I hope that all those
peace-loving souls in Belgium, Germany and France can somehow muster an
army to protect themselves.

Very well thanks, the French army is extremely well regarded these days as is the British. Germany only has a limited army in relation to their size but the country that invented staff command would find a way if the need arose.

I hope that the continent I live on never
again needs to go cap in hand to the Americans. Because if that black
day ever comes, I have the feeling that America might just tell Europe
where to go.

And? Any army that can threaten Europe is a de facto threat to the US. Self interest would dictate they join in or the resulting block will be far more powerful than they could ever hope to deal with.

On the eve of war, there is a tangible anger in America. But
surprisingly little of it is directed against the Iraqis. It is the
French who are detested.

They believe the US is legally and morally wrong to go to war, they stood up for those beliefs as a free nation. Free nation...an alien concept to the US these days sadly.

"This is all about oil," the Brits hear all the time. And Americans
think it is "all about oil" too. The $50 billion worth of oil contracts
that France has with Iraq. In American eyes, that is why the French are
so keen to avoid war.

That's as stupid as the blood for oil statements from the anti-war side. Another argument goes down in flames.

Anti-French feeling in the United Kingdom is never more than a passing
fancy, a jokey bit of "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter. Not in America.

The cafeteria in the House of Representatives no longer serves French
fries - chips to you and me, guvnor. Now they sell something called
"freedom fries". That sounds nuts - and of course it is.

It's nuts. Enough said.

But when a furious Congresswoman presents a "bring home our dead" bill
demanding that the 75,000 American men and boys who died in France
during two world wars be dug up and brought home, you realise that this
is more than "hop-off-you-Frogs" banter.

Congresswoman Ginny Brown-Waite says, "The remains of our brave
servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not in a country that has
turned its back on the US and on the memory of Americans who fought and
died there."

Who turned their back on the US? No-one did, they disagreed over an invasion of a country that was not threat to the US no matter what the Department of Fatherland Security says.

That's the difference between the British and the Americans. We do not
feel that the British casualties in two world wars died to liberate the
French. We believe that we were fighting for our nation's survival. Just
like the Russians. It is different for Americans.

Throughout the 20th century, through two world wars and one Cold War,
America gave all the blood and money Europe needed to keep it free. They
feel that the current crisis has proved that Europeans are, when all is
said and done, an ungrateful bunch of Euro bastards who do not give a
flying baguette about the 75,000 American graves in Europe.

75000 is a drop in the ocean, a mere token compared to the millions that died in WWII. As I said before, there was American interest in keeping the war in the European theatre so it was hardly altruism. I also submit that no-one would demean the sacrifice those fighting made for liberty and freedom in EVERY country affected by the invading Axis forces, they died heroes and will always be heroes but that still does not mean there should be automatic agreement amongst European nations to whatever the US wants to do next.

Anti-European feeling goes right across the board of public opinion,
even among the millions of Americans who are passionately against
attacking Iraq. America is united in feeling betrayed by Europe. America
is finally starting to understand that - to Europe's eternal shame -
there is an opinion that 9/11 was America's comeuppance. Secretaries and
waiters leaping from the top of the burning twin towers? The fault of
American arrogance.

No no and no again. What does this have to do with Iraq though? It is established fact that there is no link between Hussein and Bin Laden so I fail to see the connection unless it is a loose terrorism one in which case the US better bomb itself and the UK real quick because we have terrorists too. As far as I know the UK has never trained them though, we left that to the US...

A terrified four-year-old girl cowering at the back
of a hijacked plane? Blame it on America's support for Israel. A
stewardess with her throat slit by a carpet cutter? One in the eye for
American imperialism. Those 3,000 dead, murdered on live television?
Europe blames America. When 9/11 happened, you might have expected to
see Palestinians dancing in the street. But who would have expected the
grim look of satisfaction on the faces of old Europe?

Again, pathetic. We weren't as stunned simply because it happened somewhere else but that's not to say we thought it was justified. Every single European nation has condemned the WTC attack and to say we believe it was justified is, again, pathetic. As for blaming it on US support for Israel, might it not be that there is a grain of truth in that? If the US wasn't so fanatical in their support for the Israeli regime and it's expansionist policies it might NOT have happened. Doesn't make it right that it did though.

But the British are absolved of Europe's sins. Those who are against the
war admire Britain because we had a peace march where one million people
filled the streets. Those for the war admire Britain because Tony Blair
has been a true friend to America. And although the man on the M25 might
make jibes about Blair being a "poodle", among American hawks our Prime
Minister is seen as dangerously strong-willed. There is a school of
opinion in America that believes the war could have been over by last
Christmas if Tony Blair had not been so keen on proceeding through the
correct diplomatic channels. Nobody calls Tony Blair a poodle in the
USA.

If Blair was strong he'd have refused to support the US without UN authority. No matter if this meant Hussein stayed in power till next year, he'd have stood his ground. He didn't, he's a poodle.

It has been good to be British in America these past few weeks. For
America has been reminded that Britain is the best friend it has in the
world, joined by blood, language, history, instinct and culture.
When
will the British wake up from their pathetic little dreams of being
Europeans and realise that we have been looking for our future in all
the wrong places? Who wants to be European today? Who wants to be an
ungrateful, unprincipled, two-faced, pacifist, Euro-grasping, oil-hungry
Lilliputian? No matter what happens over the coming days and weeks, it
is true what they say. The English Channel is far wider than the
Atlantic.

Now we get to the heart of it. If the author wants to apply for a green card he's welcome, we're better off without idiots like him.

I leave by noting the fact that the author uses the word 'pacifist' as an insult. I believe that tells us all we need to know about him and his lack of emotional development.

[BetrayerOfHope]

that article is as intelligent and interessting as something from a extreme right wing newspaper in my country. sadly it seems that in the usa people than in my country (2-3% of the people i would say) belive such bull****.

we should help the usa in an offensive war because they helped europe in WWII? thats a joke or?
the usa brought 0 reasons which would have been worth to invade the iraq and now they wonder that not everybody jumped their ship lol?

well it seems the end of the cold war and the missing of an real 2nd powerblock made them feel like the kings of the world ...

[LHC]

Strange that it came out of the Mirror, an anti-US paper.

[the_dastardley_chihuahua]

Originally posted by LHC
Strange that it came out of the Mirror, an anti-US paper.

they print his column every week and its always got a huge pro-war piece in, which i suppose is credit to the mirror, i havent checked but i cant imagine the sun printing an anti-war piece every week.

anyway, it may just be that the mirror are being very sneaky about this and are posting parson's CRAP in order to discredit the pro-war argument even more, very clever i think.

[Marilyn Manson]

What Gayle said. There no point in repeating it. It was completely idiotic rhetorical bollocks, the worst kind of tabloid-esque emotional junk. It barely deserves a response, it was so evidently foolish and misplaced in most areas.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Slidey
they know a few things about losing wars..

france didnt exactly 'lose'.

If that kid across the street has a bunch of friends with guns, who use chemical weapons to kill millions of smaller people elsewhere in his neighbourhood i guess you stand by and let him?

and instead we should support that kid invading that neighbourhood using conventional weapons?

unjustified - no. see previous point.
removing a ruthless dictator from a minority party, who has killed a million of his own people using at times weapons of mass distruction no less, is justified.

millions goes too far, but i think bush allowed a few death penalties, without using WMDs though. not to talk about the civilians who so far died in afganistan and iraq. but who talked about removing bush from power?

why does it matter who dug it up? Saddam also got his first nuclear stuff from the french too

and his first biological and chemical weapons from the us ...

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
they print his column every week and its always got a huge pro-war piece in, which i suppose is credit to the mirror, i havent checked but i cant imagine the sun printing an anti-war piece every week.

"Balanced journalism" does not refer to the process of printing flawed sophomoric crap from both extremist positions, rather than just from one.

[Marilyn Manson]

Everybody lost WW2 on either an actual or phryic level except for The US, and The Soviet Union to a much lesser extent. Those were the only real 'victors'

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally posted by Nodrog
"Balanced journalism" does not refer to the process of printing flawed sophomoric crap from both extremist positions, rather than just from one.

Tabloids are a social ill.

[Vaio]

Originally posted by Vanilla
Found the source in case anyone is interested.

It was written by Tony Parsons (<3) for the mirror.

Tony Parsons, ex NME 'journalist' terrible author and a muppet that usually spends most of his time bitching about his ex wife Julie Birchal.

Vaio

[Sub]

I wouldn't really say the Germans are bad at wars really, considering it took all of the world to stop them last time.

[Hardin]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk

Now we get to the heart of it. If the author wants to apply for a green card he's welcome, we're better off without idiots like him.

I leave by noting the fact that the author uses the word 'pacifist' as an insult. I believe that tells us all we need to know about him and his lack of emotional development.

All in all a great response!

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Vaio
bitching about his ex wife Julie Birchal

And vice versa I think.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Sub
I wouldn't really say the Germans are bad at wars really, considering it took all of the world to stop them last time.

No niether would I.

The Germans were good at wars, they were bad at winning them.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Sub
I wouldn't really say the Germans are bad at wars really, considering it took the Russian winter to stop them last time.

[Hudre]

The Germans had some pretty good attack plans. I don't know about defence though.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Hudre
I don't know about defence though.

Hmm, Neither do I, but they lost, so the Defence plans cannot have been much good.

[Hudre]

Yeah, in World War 1, their last defence was one last big attack. They should work on that kind of stuff for the 3rd one.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Given that WW1 was supposed to be a quick in/grap some territory/out job, I think that the attack planners weren't up to much either.

Go Schlieffen Plan!