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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 16:11   #1
Nodrog
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Those terroristic terrorists sure are going to have a hard time terrorising

Quote:
Pentagon confirms 'snooping' system
By Bill Gertz

The Pentagon yesterday confirmed that a high-tech data-collection system that will monitor credit-card transactions and airline ticket purchases, described by critics as "a supersnoop's dream," is being created to thwart terrorist attacks

Edward C. "Pete" Aldridge, undersecretary of defense for acquisition and a retired Navy admiral, said the program, Total Information Awareness (TIA), is an "experimental prototype" that will attempt to search "vast quantities of data to determine links and patterns indicative of terrorist activities."

The program is being developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), which is headed by retired Adm. John Poindexter, the national security adviser during the Reagan administration who was convicted of lying to Congress in the Iran-Contra scandal. The convictions were overturned on appeal.

"DARPA's purpose is to demonstrate the feasibility of this technology," Adm. Aldridge said. "If it proves useful, [TIA] will then be turned over to the intelligence, counterintelligence and law-enforcement communities as a tool to help them in their battle against domestic terrorism."
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021121-80027736.htm

I am personally glad that America is taking actions like this to help protect the security of the entire Western world. Its a clear signal to all potential wrong-doers out there that the days of enjoying privacy while you purchase potentially harmful items are long gone. The complete tracking of private transactions can only help to ensure that the wrong people do not get hold of dangerous items which could potentially endanger the populace. More government initiatives such as this will definitely help reduce the likelihood of a tragedy such as the WTC disaster ever occuring again.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 16:16   #2
WarFalcon
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I think the Pentagon has abandoned this plan since then...
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 16:25   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon
I think the Pentagon has abandoned this plan since then...
Link?

That article is a few days old, I just saw it today.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 16:38   #4
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 16:42   #5
WarFalcon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Link?

That article is a few days old, I just saw it today.

nevermind, it was the eDNA plan that was dropped
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:02   #6
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Its annoys me greatly that they are planning on using this "thing" on us europeans too! Americans have voted for Gore, so they have to be stuck whit whatever Bush says/does.(Or rather, his "advisors")
But to monitor me? Thats disgusting, or even worse, illigal.
BUSH, IM GONNA SUE YOUR ASS!


PS! I have no idea if they are gona monitor me, but i heard somewhere that they would monitor europe as well. (i think it was on TV a few days ago..)

PSS! If they dont moitor me, im gonna laugh and start some plane courses.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:06   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
PS! I have no idea if they are gona monitor me, but i heard somewhere that they would monitor europe as well. (i think it was on TV a few days ago..)

PSS! If they dont moitor me, im gonna laugh and start some plane courses.
they already monitor you and especially european companies

btw, maybe we cant help you on iraq, but we certainly have still some stasi-people here, we could send them over to make sure you get your total-observation-thingy running proper, we have years of experience
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:15   #8
Structural Integrity
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hmmmpf....
What annoys me the most is the paranoid attitude of the civilians of the US, and the advantage taken by those in office, and the idea that they can pull anything off.
Personally I don't give a damn if they want to know if I whipe my arse with my right or left hand, but there are surely more important things than monitoring the regular Joe. A cure for cancer for instance. Surely that would "save" more lives in the long run. Have them invest their multi-billion-gazillion dollars in things like that.

This entire monitoring and terror prevention crap is no more than a popularity stunt, and in my humble opinion the americans deserve to be terrorred the shiet out of for being so incredibly paranoid and caring more about a few thousand lives lost in terrorist attacks than those many more lives lost each day in traffic accidents and lack of healt support.


[/rant]
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:18   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Structural Integrity
A cure for cancer for instance. Surely that would "save" more lives in the long run. Have them invest their multi-billion-gazillion dollars in things like that.
Most money spent on cancer research would be wasted. They maybe won't ever cure cancer, and spending time and money on it would be a waste.

I don't mind if the government monitors me. I have no intention of hijacking a plane, so why should I worry about being arrested?

Not that this will help, so why don't they give us the money, to taunt the firemen?

Last edited by LHC; 24 Nov 2002 at 17:36.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:27   #10
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nod, you forgot the [/SARCASM] around your posts

I belive that that system will never work anyway so i am not woried by it
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:52   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by LHC

Most money spent on cancer research would be wasted. They maybe won't ever cure cancer, and spending time and money on it would be a waste.

I don't mind if the government monitors me. I have no intention of hijacking a plane, so why should I worry about being arrested?
Because there will be a time and point (which may exist from the second this program comes online) which members of the government use this technology to ensure they win the next election, eliminate competition before it enters the political arena, blackmail critical authors about potentially embrassing (not illegal) activities, and my god the list never ends.

In relation to what they are monitoring now, say if an author with the New York Times buys a Playboy Magazine at convience store with some other things, he is low on cash so uses a Credit Card. The next day he publishes a highly critical article about a senator, and that senator then has his friend in the FBI call the New York Times warning them that the Author views child porn and comes from a questionable background. A raid on his house shows no child porn, but the Play Boy magazines he has stacked under his bed 'shows up' in the 5 pm news, and he is 'let go' from the newspaper.

Right now they could make a trip to Hong Kong, Egypt, Indonesia, or even Spain and France look like a terrorist link-up. They could use it to crush a lobbying group or sway popular opinion. If the law ever expands the damage it would have to our quasi-free society would be irrevocable. Sure, the United States isn't purely demoratic, but its one of the best illusions of democracy to date. Someone born on a Alamaba farm could become a senator if he was bright enough and made a scholarship. With these kind of 'safeguards' installed into our society, the freedom to enter certain career paths will quickly begin to disengrate.

Thats why you cant just say "Well since I am not doing anything wrong, I don't have anything to worry about." when doing wrong might mean expressing a certain opinion.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:52   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Structural Integrity
hmmmpf....
What annoys me the most is the paranoid attitude of the civilians of the US, and the advantage taken by those in office, and the idea that they can pull anything off.
Personally I don't give a damn if they want to know if I whipe my arse with my right or left hand, but there are surely more important things than monitoring the regular Joe. A cure for cancer for instance. Surely that would "save" more lives in the long run. Have them invest their multi-billion-gazillion dollars in things like that.

This entire monitoring and terror prevention crap is no more than a popularity stunt, and in my humble opinion the americans deserve to be terrorred the shiet out of for being so incredibly paranoid and caring more about a few thousand lives lost in terrorist attacks than those many more lives lost each day in traffic accidents and lack of healt support.


[/rant]
Your mistake is assuming that the motivation is to save lifes.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:54   #13
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Obviously it'll keep out of some sensitive information. Liek investors financial records


And if this goes ahead, I will laugh at anyone who uses the term 'land of the free'
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 17:55   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner_0

I belive that that system will never work anyway so i am not woried by it
Its this attitude, coupled with the "If you arent a criminal, you have nothing to fear" brigade, that is the precise reason why it will work.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 18:06   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Its this attitude, coupled with the "If you arent a criminal, you have nothing to fear" brigade, that is the precise reason why it will work.
which is scary
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 18:31   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
Your mistake is assuming that the motivation is to save lifes.
Well, I believe that the US citizens believe it is meant to save lives.
But I really believe that the office of Bush uses this paranoid attitude of the population to pull off this popularity stunt called "war against terrorism".

IMO it's the biggest and most obvious hoax ever pulled off, yet so many people fall for it it's saddening.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 18:33   #17
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Quote:
This entire monitoring and terror prevention crap is no more than a popularity stunt, and in my humble opinion the americans deserve to be terrorred the shiet out of for being so incredibly paranoid and caring more about a few thousand lives lost in terrorist attacks than those many more lives lost each day in traffic accidents and lack of healt support.
Traffic accidents and "lack of healt support" already have counter-measures. The government focuses on terrorism becuase it is a much more serious threat, and because it is a high crime designed to destroy property/lives and traumatize as many as possible. Would you suggest that the Allied governments should have focused on stopping vandalism from 1937 through 1945?
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 18:36   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Its annoys me greatly that they are planning on using this "thing" on us europeans too!
I don't have any problem with using it on non-citizens, that doesn't violate the Constitution
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:41   #19
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Originally posted by WarFalcon


I don't have any problem with using it on non-citizens, that doesn't violate the Constitution
you are already doing this with your echolon-crap which only use seems to be to spy on our companies
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:45   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax

you are already doing this with your echolon-crap which only use seems to be to spy on our companies

every country spies as much as possible and every country tries to stop spying as much as possible, whats the problem?
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:48   #21
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Originally posted by WarFalcon



every country spies as much as possible and every country tries to stop spying as much as possible, whats the problem?
i dont have a problem with 'normal' spying but if you use your spy network for example to make sure that boeing gets an order instead of airbus (because boeing knew about the prices) it violates this whole free trade idea and gives an unfair advantage to your companies
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:49   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon



every country spies as much as possible and every country tries to stop spying as much as possible, whats the problem?
"Everyone else does it, so its ok!"
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:59   #23
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 19:59   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonotoneMan


Traffic accidents and "lack of healt support" already have counter-measures. The government focuses on terrorism becuase it is a much more serious threat, and because it is a high crime designed to destroy property/lives and traumatize as many as possible. Would you suggest that the Allied governments should have focused on stopping vandalism from 1937 through 1945?
So you're trying to compare WW2 with some goofballs trying to raise their popularity by using the paranoia of their population...
YOU GO GIRL!!!

It's fine that they try to prevent terrorism, but this is just going a tad too far. It's like Bush banning the Internet because it encourages terrorism and the entire US population goes "HURRAH, LET'S INVADE EUROPE NOW WITH SPYING PROJECTS!!!!".

I wonder what happens next election-time, I can very well imagine that Bush figure sitting in that white house for another four years. And when he does, every American who voted for him deserves to be shot in the face for being so incredibly stupid, not to see the hoax of his.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 21:46   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax

i dont have a problem with 'normal' spying but if you use your spy network for example to make sure that boeing gets an order instead of airbus (because boeing knew about the prices) it violates this whole free trade idea and gives an unfair advantage to your companies

I fail to see how spying can effect who can produce the lowest bid. In any event, I happen to agree that the government should stay out of business.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:03   #26
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I fail to see how spying can effect who can produce the lowest bid. In any event, I happen to agree that the government should stay out of business.
lets say company a and b both calculate a profits of for example 15% while company a is slightly cheaper. if now company b gets information about the prices company a offers it is able to make an offer just below the offer of company a, while company a dont have these informations and therefore cant do anything, this its an unfair advatage
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:07   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax

lets say company a and b both calculate a profits of for example 15% while company a is slightly cheaper. if now company b gets information about the prices company a offers it is able to make an offer just below the offer of company a, while company a dont have these informations and therefore cant do anything, this its an unfair advatage
The solution to this would be for company b to put forth its lowest bid first if it really wants the job.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:11   #28
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Originally posted by WarFalcon


The solution to this would be for company b to put forth its lowest bid first if it really wants the job.
and make no profit at all? they dont know the costs for company b, how should they calculate their profits?
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:32   #29
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Re: Those terroristic terrorists sure are going to have a hard time terrorising

Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog


http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021121-80027736.htm

I am personally glad that America is taking actions like this to help protect the security of the entire Western world. Its a clear signal to all potential wrong-doers out there that the days of enjoying privacy while you purchase potentially harmful items are long gone. The complete tracking of private transactions can only help to ensure that the wrong people do not get hold of dangerous items which could potentially endanger the populace. More government initiatives such as this will definitely help reduce the likelihood of a tragedy such as the WTC disaster ever occuring again.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:46   #30
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So you're trying to compare WW2 with some goofballs trying to raise their popularity by using the paranoia of their population...
YOU GO GIRL!!!
I can ususally decipher incorrect grammar or tell what people were trying to say when they have run-on sentences and such, but, with all sue respect, huh?

Quote:
Bush banning the Internet because it encourages
Is this supposed to be hypothetical? It certainly isn't true.

Quote:
"HURRAH, LET'S INVADE EUROPE NOW WITH SPYING PROJECTS
I can't see why you think you're a victim, or why you think that Europe is a target of anything.

Quote:
I wonder what happens next election-time, I can very well imagine that Bush figure sitting in that white house for another four years. And when he does, every American who voted for him deserves to be shot in the face for being so incredibly stupid, not to see the hoax of his.
Whatever you say. You should realize that Bush doesn't do anything by himself (except ****, I hope) and that he wasn't elected to begin with. And would you mind explaining this hoax to me?

Quote:
lets say company a and b both calculate a profits of for example 15% while company a is slightly cheaper. if now company b gets information about the prices company a offers it is able to make an offer just below the offer of company a, while company a dont have these informations and therefore cant do anything, this its an unfair advatage
I'm sure no one has ever come up with this idea:
If you own company A, have someone from your company go look at the prices of company B, in the most clever disguise ever: a potential consumer! Or better yet, you don't need a ****ing disguise! Corporations can already find the prices that a rival offers quite easily.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:50   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by wu_trax

and make no profit at all? they dont know the costs for company b, how should they calculate their profits?
you calculate the lowest amount you are prepared to work for, including profits, and use that as your bid.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:54   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon


you calculate the lowest amount you are prepared to work for, including profits, and use that as your bid.


Is that a spin-off joke of that great astronaut one? Where the US astronaut is sitting is getting a bit nervous on take-off and when asked why replies "well how would you like to be sitting on top of the best efforts of 4000 lowest bidders?"





PS It's why we have quality standards and why ultra-capitalism isn't necessarily a good thing.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 22:57   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood




Is that a spin-off joke of that great astronaut one? Where the US astronaut is sitting is getting a bit nervous on take-off and when asked why replies "well how would you like to be sitting on top of the best efforts of 4000 lowest bidders?"

not a very good joke when approached logially, using the realities of the free market economy as the basis for humor evaluation, but on the surface, if you remain in ignorent stupor, its funny I suppose...
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:00   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon



not a very good joke when approached logially, using the realities of the free market economy as the basis for humor evaluation, but on the surface, if you remain in ignorent stupor, its funny I suppose...


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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:01   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonotoneMan

I can't see why you think you're a victim, or why you think that Europe is a target of anything.

I'm sure no one has ever come up with this idea:
If you own company A, have someone from your company go look at the prices of company B, in the most clever disguise ever: a potential consumer! Or better yet, you don't need a ****ing disguise! Corporations can already find the prices that a rival offers quite easily.
The US uses military intelligence to steal trade secrets from European industry (supposedly). Some of those whiny Euros like to bitch about it, but who cares because even the Armenian army could probably successfully invade the average European country without US backing, so they have to bend over and take whatever we feel like giving them.

And as to your 'company A and B' argument, they aren't talking about walking into WalMart and buying spatulas.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:04   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood




Neo-reactionary proto-conformist anarcho-conservative.
The intrinsic negativitiy of your meta-retroconstructionistic logocentricity tires me greatly.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:06   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
The US uses military intelligence to steal trade secrets from European industry (supposedly). Some of those whiny Euros like to bitch about it, but who cares because even the Armenian army could probably successfully invade the average European country without US backing, so they have to bend over and take whatever we feel like giving them.

And as to your 'company A and B' argument, they aren't talking about walking into WalMart and buying spatulas.

I don't think it right that people go around stealing secrets from business to give to other business. However, need I remind you people that most technological thefts usually are stolen from America, not by America. Or so it seems.
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:14   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
The intrinsic negativitiy of your meta-retroconstructionistic logocentricity tires me greatly.

Your ignorant isolationist idiotic insinuations are irritating me immensely.









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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:17   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon
... However, need I remind you people that most technological thefts usually are stolen from America, not by America. Or so it seems.
According to statistics, you are completely correct.

Code:
  Technological thefts in 2001      By America       By Antarctica     By Martians     By Australia       By Europe      By Canada

Slightly secret documents                 4                5               730              42               3                7
Very secret documents                     3                1               109              42              22                5
Top secret documents                    197               14                24              42             407               30
Secrets stolen unnoticed                331               80                99              42             119             1121
Secrets attempted stolen                 22                1                 0               1              11               10
Secrets discovered to be stolen          84                1                 0               0               1                9
Alien technology                        117              203               N/A             420             109              309
Blueprints for advanced toasters          1                4              1077              77               1               20
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:24   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by WarFalcon



I don't think it right that people go around stealing secrets from business to give to other business. However, need I remind you people that most technological thefts usually are stolen from America, not by America. Or so it seems.
therefore its right if america steals secrets here?
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:26   #41
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Originally posted by WarFalcon


you calculate the lowest amount you are prepared to work for, including profits, and use that as your bid.
its not that easy, if you have empty capacity you might even be willing to take an offer if you are below the profitzone. but anyway, its gives information to your companies that ours dont have. and this certainly isnt what this whole spy-thing should be about
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Unread 24 Nov 2002, 23:28   #42
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Originally posted by Cyp


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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 00:26   #43
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And as to your 'company A and B' argument, they aren't talking about walking into WalMart and buying spatulas.
What then, wooden spoons? No matter what, if something is on sale to the public, which the original argument gave the impression it would be, then you can send someone to see what the price is.

Quote:
therefore its right if america steals secrets here?
Person A: *Slaps Person B twice*
Person B: *After being slapped twice by Person A, slaps Person A once*
Person A: "That's not fair!"
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 01:05   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by MonotoneMan


What then, wooden spoons? No matter what, if something is on sale to the public, which the original argument gave the impression it would be, then you can send someone to see what the price is.
oi.

first, they aren't on sale 'to the public'

second, they don't have 'prices,' they have bids, which they try very hard to keep secret

for example, let's say some airliner has requested bids for 100 jumbo jets.

then there is no where to "send someone" (boeing presumably has no outlet store with crates of jumbo jets, especially because they wouldn't build them until they had already won the bid)

this could go on. I hope it doesn't have to.
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 01:28   #45
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yet another sign that the US government has completely and utterly lost the plot.
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 02:12   #46
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So they'll known the next time i buy Uranium in minsk, a heavy duty briefcase and a plane ticket to washington?

oh dear, but I was building up so many amex points
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 02:53   #47
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Originally posted by acropolis
oi.

first, they aren't on sale 'to the public'

second, they don't have 'prices,' they have bids, which they try very hard to keep secret

for example, let's say some airliner has requested bids for 100 jumbo jets.

then there is no where to "send someone" (boeing presumably has no outlet store with crates of jumbo jets, especially because they wouldn't build them until they had already won the bid)

this could go on. I hope it doesn't have to.
Thank you for clearing that up.
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 07:15   #48
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Re: Those terroristic terrorists sure are going to have a hard time terrorising

Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog


http://www.washtimes.com/national/20021121-80027736.htm

I am personally glad that America is taking actions like this to help protect the security of the entire Western world. Its a clear signal to all potential wrong-doers out there that the days of enjoying privacy while you purchase potentially harmful items are long gone. The complete tracking of private transactions can only help to ensure that the wrong people do not get hold of dangerous items which could potentially endanger the populace. More government initiatives such as this will definitely help reduce the likelihood of a tragedy such as the WTC disaster ever occuring again.
There is this medical condition that is a fancy set of words for "chokin in your own vomit".

So if I was rich, I'd invest in data warehousing, but as I am not, I will simply continue my simple economic boycot of US products.

If anyone here has a dad that will lose his job because of this, I am deeply sorry for you.

Did you know that Saddam gives food away to all needy people on a two-day basis? There is noone hungry in Iraq. Think of it. Noone.

SO, if you WOULD lose your job, you could always move to Iraq for free meals.

Thank you.
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 14:16   #49
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Re: Re: Those terroristic terrorists sure are going to have a hard time terrorising

Quote:
Originally posted by xtrasyn



Did you know that Saddam gives food away to all needy people on a two-day basis? There is noone hungry in Iraq. Think of it. Noone.

and you call america materialistic when you'd sell out for a crust of bread? theres no one free in Iraq either, think of it, no one.
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Unread 25 Nov 2002, 14:21   #50
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Those terroristic terrorists sure are going to have a hard time terrorisi

Quote:
Originally posted by Miasma



When you have no food and no money to buy it, wouldnt you?


Or would you let your family starve for your ideals?

if it came down to it yeah I'd rather starve than be a slave, but I doubt that those are the only two options usually. I would attempt to migrate, grow food in secret, etc...
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