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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 15:02   #151
Phang
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
If these independent artists really want to give their music to the masses for free, nothing is stopping them. Lots of artists don't want to give their music away for free online (otherwise they would!) yet don't have a choice when people use torrents to take it.
plenty of artists DO give large chunks of music away online, through websites, tracker uploads and to some extent myspace etc. - whenever I've spoken to someone from a non-major label band after a gig they've been delighted - genuinely - that filesharing is getting their name out because most musicians want everyone to hear their music first and to make money from it second. Besides which, half of the bands breaking through lately found their more interesting influences through filesharing anyway.


This isnt the brilliantly argued argument-defeating point i would have liked to make but TK you are being so self-righteous and smug here it is causing physical discomfort


edit: also TK please look up 'public goods' thank you
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 17:41   #152
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Even with conservative figures for hosting and bandwidth, he was making a loss. Remember he was working a full time job as well.
What kind of webhosting/bandwidth costs ~£100,000?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
stop using this argument because you kee ignoring the fact that he didn't actually make a profit (or even close to one afaik), bbc and pretty much every news site apart from the guardian have basically been stating complete and utter lies about this (and generally anything to do with oink)
Where is this evidence that the bbc was "lying"? You tell me that my sources are mistaken, yet don't counter my argument with any sources of your own except "yeah yours are wrong, even well known/respectable news sources".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
whenever I've spoken to someone from a non-major label band after a gig they've been delighted - genuinely - that filesharing is getting their name out because most musicians want everyone to hear their music first and to make money from it second.
Right... well I'm very happy for them. Great story

The thing is that some (lots/few/many/a couple/irrelevant quantity) of bands/artists DON'T like their music being spread around for free. It's fine if you're just some high school band who have jobs/studies alongside (not that I'm saying these are the kind of chaps you'd be speaking to at your concerts... of course...), but if your primary income come from your music, they probably would prefer to make SOME money from it - I know I would.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
This isnt the brilliantly argued argument-defeating point i would have liked to make but TK you are being so self-righteous and smug here it is causing physical discomfort
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 17:44   #153
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
edit: also TK please look up 'public goods' thank you
Aren't you doing Economics at uni? You don't know what public goods are

Public goods are things such as street lights or the Army. Music you download for free without permission from the artists is not a public good.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 17:54   #154
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(not that I'm saying these are the kind of chaps you'd be speaking to at your concerts... of course...)
You went for the sarcasm option.

And you FAILED!

And then, again, you went for the sarcasm option.

And you FAILED!
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 18:47   #155
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
What kind of webhosting/bandwidth costs ~£100,000?
What kind of guy works a full time job and lives in a flat in Boro when he's making "hundreds of thousands of pounds" from a website?

(The amount of money brought in has been VASTLY overstated by the IFPA, which is bizarre given that it would surely only encourage people from setting up similar websites?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Where is this evidence that the bbc was "lying"? You tell me that my sources are mistaken, yet don't counter my argument with any sources of your own except "yeah yours are wrong, even well known/respectable news sources".
The well known news sources got just about everything about oink incorrect, you know. If you want a source for some of the clearing of the waters, have a look at http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...bout_oink.html
and there are huge numbers of similar things around the internet, not the least words from the guy himself.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 18:52   #156
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
plenty of artists DO give large chunks of music away online, through websites, tracker uploads and to some extent myspace etc. - whenever I've spoken to someone from a non-major label band after a gig they've been delighted - genuinely - that filesharing is getting their name out
Your sample is biased because you presumably only talk to indierock bands who make most of their money from touring. The 'tour' model isnt really representative of music in general though.

Also most indie bands are mainly amateurs who are in it for fun rather than people who have been devoting themselves to music for decades rather than just playing in a band with friends while working a full-time job, so again its not really comparable to professional musicians.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 Nov 2007 at 19:31.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 18:53   #157
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Your sample is biased because you presumably only talk to indierock bands who make most of their money from touring. The 'touring' model from pop/rock music is not representative of music in general.
It's where most of the money is, though.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 19:33   #158
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
It's where most of the money is, though.
It depends what sort of music youre talking about. Its easier for a rock band to tour than it is for a composer or an electronic artist for instance.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 19:34   #159
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
It depends what sort of music youre talking about. Its easier for a rock band to tour than it is for a composer or an electronic artist for instance.
I meant that most of the money in music is in pop/rock.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 21:13   #160
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Where is this evidence that the bbc was "lying"? You tell me that my sources are mistaken, yet don't counter my argument with any sources of your own except "yeah yours are wrong, even well known/respectable news sources".
What is the specific source for the £100,000 (or more) income? The BBC link you gave at the start of the thread quotes a policeman saying the site was "extremely lucrative" but I'm not sure what that means. £100,000 of revenue (not profit) certainly wouldn't be extremely lucrative over a period much longer than a year. Not that it means much without knowing his costs (or seeing the books more generally).

(Not that it matters how much money he made, just to emphasise)

I doubt the BBC are "lying" in the direct sense. Their coverage suffers from the usual problems.
1. The people writing about the story don't really understand the issues involved. Or if they do they're struggling with trying to get over the nuances of the story in 200 words (the length of the beeb story).

2. They don't have enough resources to actually investigate the issues directly and so they rely on press releases. This usually comes from the police and/or the content industry representatives (the RIAA in America, the BPI for us). And so we have two quotes in the BBC initial story - one from the police, one from the BPI. In the minds of the BBC editors, this might constitute some sort of "balance", who knows.* The point is that both those bodies are going to tend to emphasise particular parts of the story - i.e. making the raids sound as justified as possible.

You don't need to "lie" in order to be unfair. The BBC in covering this story could have said :
"A police raid in the North of England has been condemned by the internet community as a 'total waste of police resources'. The raid, which resulted in the arrest of a 24 year old man and the seizure of thousands of pounds worth of equipment took place in part of the country in which more than 70% of reported robberies escape police detection. One observer noted that in an area with above-average anti-social behaviour this was the 'the firs time the police had been seen in days'.

Another said that in the two years spent investigating some computer enthusiasts, over 300 women in the Cleveland area had been raped or seriously sexually assaulted. There have been calls this evening for the Superintendent who authorised the operation to resign."

...etc. And this would all be unfair too while all notionally being true. (Probably).

* = Some might argue that the BBC shouldn't be balanced about criminals - after all, if a child is raped, we don't expect to hear a quote from the Child Molestors League to balance any coverage given. But I'd argue that the British public are a little more divided on their opinions on intellectual property than they are about child abuse, although I have no direct statistics to back this up.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 23:54   #161
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Re: OiNK closed down...

If he made that much money from donations I'll ram a vase up my rectal passage repeatedly throughout the month of december to the tune to Maria Carey's I will always love you. If his visitors decided to click on music advertising (I'm guessing there were adverts, although I have no idea, people?) just after illegally downloading albums and what have you and he made around £100,000 (or more than £100 a week) from that I will ram something of a smaller size up there for a lesser period, perhaps three quarters of a month. and name my sphincter Gerald.

I seriously doubt it d00ds.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 00:16   #162
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Re: OiNK closed down...

I've done a little search and can't find the quote on how much he made. Why the figure "£100,000" comes to mind I don't know - I perhaps read it in a newspaper. Sorry - Jakiri seems to have also read it too.

I did find a quote of "£500 per month for his hosting etc" though - £6000 a year.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 00:37   #163
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Anyway, don't people learn? Napster's centralisation was its downfall.

You need a decentralised service that uses proxy servers that mask the distributor IP address to a fairly large number of characters which the clients requests. Then these specialised proxies would delete the conversion data after a specified period of time just after passing on the transfer/seed to another trusted proxy, in another country ideally, if the transfer is not complete. These specialised proxies could also circumvent the Great Firewall of China, Burma's system, etc, which would provide a valid and important use. And if enough of these pop up at random intervals at random places detectable via port scanning and other means it would completely bugger censorship attempts.

Someone should implement this.

As these proxies are not internet service providers you'd need to outlaw proxy servers that fail to log all transactions, or at least licence them, which would pose a large number of painful questions on civil liberties.

Paging the Pirate Bay re their forthcoming protocol and civil liberties groups to thread 3130491.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 01:06   #164
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Hebdomad: It wasn't advertising based, and the site didn't actually host any music. It was a community though, so "decentralisation" would have been counterproductive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I've done a little search and can't find the quote on how much he made. Why the figure "£100,000" comes to mind I don't know - I perhaps read it in a newspaper. Sorry - Jakiri seems to have also read it too.
Either the IFPI or the police, I forget which, said he was making "hundreds of thousands of pounds", which was complete bollocks like most of the other things they said. Doubly so if it was the police, apparantly they didn't know anything about computers at all.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 01:42   #165
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Well, he was seeding hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of material. I doubt your average policeperson knows how the bittorrent system works. And if you read policeperson and you experienced a moment of shock at the rampant political correctness violating our fair and just society, then hehehe I did that especially for you my sweet, sweet child.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 07:55   #166
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
Well, he was seeding hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of material..
He wasnt seeding anything.

A decentralised p2p service wouldnt work because you couldnt track ratios, and without ratios there is no incentive to seed.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 09:21   #167
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Linking to the material then? "He ran the site, the site had links to lots of material, he has access to and has thereby accumulated lots of stolen material?" as a possible police conclusion.

Ratios don't beget or make an essential part of file sharing dude. On vas continuer
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 09:43   #168
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Ratios are essential to filesharing. You said already that you werent on OiNK so you perhaps dont understand how important ratios were in making it superior to shit like TBP or soulseek.

Its about incentives. Without ratios there is far less incentive to contribute your own material or seed other people's and youd just end up with a system like TPB where everyone caps their upload and stops seeding as soon as their 2KB/s downloads finish. Also a decentralised system allows no way to enforce quality standards and remove torrents that are low-bitrate/transcoded/untagged/etc.

Quote:
Linking to the material then? "He ran the site, the site had links to lots of material, he has access to and has thereby accumulated lots of stolen material?" as a possible police conclusion.
you could say the same about google.

Last edited by Nodrog; 4 Nov 2007 at 09:51.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 11:40   #169
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Ratios are essential to filesharing. You said already that you werent on OiNK so you perhaps dont understand how important ratios were in making it superior to shit like TBP or soulseek.
Agreed. It took me a while to properly appreciate how the system worked or the impact it had on individual behaviour. I think I finally "got it" when reading a thread where someone was arguing that some people should seed less to give others a chance. Think about that. Give others a chance at behaviour normally considered altruistic (and encouraged through tedious moralistic appeals).

Having said that, it probably is possible to decentralise file-sharing and still maintain a system of ratios, or monitoring. It would take some clever people to sit down and work out the specifics, but the only real difficulty would be the need for some sort of trusted authentication servers/sources which would need to be public and high profile by their nature. If you have that, you have something that someone can sue given enough time.

But presumably it'd be possible to introduce enough "ignorance" (or distance) in the system, so the authentication server genuinely has no knowledge of what's being transferred between two parties merely that it is. Then use a ebay type system to record if the transferred file is what it claims to be. Or something like that.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 14:15   #170
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Yeah, I didn't use OiNK although I did read up on the ratio system (which seems like a good idea except for the centralised nature of its data storage). However, I'd question your assumption that soulseek and its ike are awful in comparison. I'm not doubting OiNK had a good community or that ratios increased the incentive to seed but it is in no way necessary to the activity and as it forces a community it creates a target for litigation.

If you decide that file sharing is only possible with ratios you force the aforementioned flaw which seems detrimental to (decentralised) file sharing's evolution.

I doubt you could create a decentralised ratio system (in the UK at least) because you'd need to either encrypt the user-ratio information to keep it anonymous which wouldn't work because you're required to keep encryption keys by law now If I'm recalling the specifics correctly, or constantly pass the information around a number of servers to abate its reliance on one server and one location for litigation which would only serve to force a game of hide and seek and that may not scale well. You could fragment, instead of pass, the data around multiple servers but that would only work if you can claim the servers are ignorant (possible as you're dealing with fragmented data) and you have enough to make it crazy to sue everyone involved, but then the system breaks down if one server goes offline.

Back to the original point, unless the police are referring to illegal material he had on his computer(s) (mp3s and what have you) the claim seems either mistaken or fictional.
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 14:49   #171
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
Linking to the material then? "He ran the site, the site had links to lots of material, he has access to and has thereby accumulated lots of stolen material?" as a possible polic
That's his main defence at the moment. He wasn't distributing anything himself, just linking people to places they could get it from. As nod said, "like google".
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Unread 4 Nov 2007, 15:03   #172
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hebdomad
Yeah, I didn't use OiNK although I did read up on the ratio system (which seems like a good idea except for the centralised nature of its data storage). However, I'd question your assumption that soulseek and its ike are awful in comparison. I'm not doubting OiNK had a good community or that ratios increased the incentive to seed but it is in no way necessary to the activity and as it forces a community it creates a target for litigation.
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 16:48   #173
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Apparantly he has been fired from his job, isn't that unfair dismissal?

Couldn't he theoretically open the site again should he not actually be charged with anything?
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 17:04   #174
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Apparantly he has been fired from his job, isn't that unfair dismissal?

Couldn't he theoretically open the site again should he not actually be charged with anything?


Depends on where he works. If he signed anything saying he wouldn't bring the company he works for into disrepute ...

But then i'm not a lawyer so i'm not sure.
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 17:45   #175
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OiNK
Since this whole thing has cost me my employment, I'm currently job-seeking. (...) I worked for a large, multi-national chemical company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Couldn't he theoretically open the site again should he not actually be charged with anything?
Yes. No charges = no verdict = no crime.
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 19:43   #176
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Re: OiNK closed down...

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Are Gay
Depends on where he works. If he signed anything saying he wouldn't bring the company he works for into disrepute ...

But then i'm not a lawyer so i'm not sure.

Also if his contract stated he couldn't start work elsewhere without giving his employers prior notice (or asking for permission). I don't know if Oink is classed as other work though.
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 20:57   #177
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Re: OiNK closed down...

see law is much more interesting than fools trying to justify theft of music
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Unread 9 Nov 2007, 23:06   #178
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Re: OiNK closed down...

And here's a canadian government study that states that people who download more music buy more music as well.

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/..._ip01456e.html

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/2347/125/ in case the above isn't working.
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