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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 00:07   #201
Bunga
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

I'll give you that the Klingons wouldn't attack, but if Star Fleet fell, I'm sure the other races would jump on it. Isn't DS9 a Star Fleet station? Or is it owned by the Bajorans?
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 00:12   #202
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Exclamation Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by skiddy
The Klingons might as well be another member of the Federation now, the Cardassians are hardly a force to fear after the losses they took in the Dominion War, the Dominion are in a different quadrant and I'm sure DS9 has some plans up it's sleeve incase of another incursion.

The Borg are pretty much screwed now when it comes to long range travel after Voyager managed to rape its Transwarp hub.
I was referring to the situation following Wolf 359, roughly at the end of TNG/start of DS9, when the comments about being short of ships were being made. Obviously, by the time Voyager and DS9 had wrapped up, the situation had changed dramatically.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 00:15   #203
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
The Constitution still holds a commission but is not considered an active ship; hence my use of that qualifier.
Fair enough. It still sails around now and then, though
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I don't see how that follows. Today's ships take far more resources and more time to build than did ships 200 years ago; yet I would say they become obsolete as fast if not faster.
If you have a bigger fleet and take longer to build replacement ships, the upgrade cycle slows down, and ships have to last longer. If you can replace 100% of your fleet in 50 years, then that is about the lifespan ships need to have and will likely be recycled around that age. If you can only replace 50% of your fleet in 50 years, then the ships you build will need to have a lifespan of 100 years.
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Navy ships get regular refits and systems upgrades.
I'm of course not an expert, but do they receive upgraded weapons, entirely new engines etc? The Star Trek ships seem more upgradeable than the US Navy ones.
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You must have watched a different Star Trek.
Not really. In the Dominion war, there are still plenty Excelsior-class ships around, which are about 80 years old at the time. Which suggests that they can still safely operate for a lengthy amount of time, and are still considered to be able to serve a military role.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Isn't DS9 a Star Fleet station? Or is it owned by the Bajorans?
Deep Space 9, or Terok Nor, is a Cardassion station, taken over by the Federation.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 00:22   #204
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Deep Space 9, or Terok Nor, is a Cardassion station, taken over by the Federation.
It's owned by the Bajorans and run by Starfleet.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 01:15   #205
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

This thread has proved once and for all that some of you really need to get out more :(
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 01:17   #206
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This thread has proved once and for all that some of you really need to get out more
I'm waiting for a Federation transport
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Originally Posted by Proteus
It's owned by the Bajorans and run by Starfleet.
Ah, I thought the Federation had taken command of the station altogether.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 01:29   #207
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
It's owned by the Bajorans and run by Starfleet.
ur owned by the bajorans
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 01:32   #208
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Ah, I thought the Federation had taken command of the station altogether.
Thats what I wasn't sure about, and why I asked.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 02:07   #209
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
39 ships were destroyed at Wolf 359, out of a fleet numbering about 6,000.
Well, this is never adequately explained. They imply most of their fleet is done in after Wolf 359, but then later one of the admirals says it will take 18 months to get upto full strength.

The "armada" assembled at Wolf 359 was supposed to be fairly impressive (by Federation standards) yet later in DS9 they have a fleet of 1k+ ships don't they?

I suppose it all really depends on the relative size of the ships, etc. I'm presuming one galaxy class ship is easily the equivalent of 50/100 shuttles or so.
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Whether their budget is unlimited or not won't keep their ships from becoming obsolete.
No, but it would imply they would be more willing to replace ships at a faster rate. Basically I was agreeing with you.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 03:09   #210
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The "armada" assembled at Wolf 359 was supposed to be fairly impressive (by Federation standards)
Only about 40 ships (not including the Enterprise) were present at Wolf 359, as most Starfleet ships were too far away to respond in time.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 03:12   #211
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

In the general Trek universe though we're not really given a proper idea how large their fleets are though.

I mean, when the Tal'Shiar (sp?) and Obsidian Order send their task-force through the wormhole (which get's done by the Dominion) theirs only meant to be about, what, 30-40 ships? But then the Dominion imply that neither the Cardassians nor the Romulans will pose a threat after that defeat. Admittedly they could be implying the hardcore elements would have been killed off, etc, etc.

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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 03:15   #212
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

this thread gives the forums a bad name
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 03:33   #213
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In the general Trek universe though we're not really given a proper idea how large their fleets are though.
Well, you need to keep in mind that the location of ships plays an equally important role. A ship travelling at Warp 9 takes 5 days to bridge 20 lightyears. Considering a good portion of older ships can't even sustain a Warp 9 cruising speed, and Federation space apparently spans 10,000 lightyears, there are bound to be a whole lot of ships that would be unable to respond to whatever situation quickly, simply due to being months if not years away.

By the end of the DS9/Voyager era, that starts being less of an issue though, as newer ships with Warp 9+ capability are being pushed into production due to the Dominion War.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 04:17   #214
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Exclamation Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If you have a bigger fleet and take longer to build replacement ships, the upgrade cycle slows down, and ships have to last longer. If you can replace 100% of your fleet in 50 years, then that is about the lifespan ships need to have and will likely be recycled around that age. If you can only replace 50% of your fleet in 50 years, then the ships you build will need to have a lifespan of 100 years.
Except that's not how it works here on Earth. As ships have become more expensive and time-consuming to build, the navies of the world have shrunk. Given the choice between buying one new supercarrier and keeping a hundred old destroyers and cruisers, what sane Admiral is going to choose the later? And you can't simply build ships to last longer because technology and evolving naval tactics render them obsolete anyway (even if you can afford to keep them manned and operational). Sure, the US Navy could have built their battleships to last 100 years but that would only mean they could have sat in mothballs for an extra 60 years. Ditto with their small carriers (newer planes needed longer flight decks), their non-nuclear submarines, etc.
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I'm of course not an expert, but do they receive upgraded weapons, entirely new engines etc? The Star Trek ships seem more upgradeable than the US Navy ones.
The Kitty Hawk, which I mentioned previously, got major refits in 1973, 1976 and spent 3-years being upgraded in 1988-1991. Of course, there's only so much that can be upgraded and eventually it becomes cheaper to scrap it and start over.
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Not really. In the Dominion war, there are still plenty Excelsior-class ships around, which are about 80 years old at the time. Which suggests that they can still safely operate for a lengthy amount of time, and are still considered to be able to serve a military role.
Er, but Star Trek is fiction. :eek: They could have just as well shown some Constellation class starships in the battle. The useful service life of a Federation starship is only and completely a matter of picking a number--they aren't bound by any real-world constraints (except that it has to be vaguely plausible; although with Science Fiction even that's a low bar).

Technology and evolving tactics renders navy ships obsolete in a generation or two at most. I guess I'd be surprised if that changed in the future and didn't carry over into starships (if/when they're ever built). If anything, I'd expect the pace of technology change to accelerate.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 04:28   #215
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Except that's not how it works here on Earth.
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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Er, but Star Trek is fiction. :eek:

Quote:
Technology and evolving tactics renders navy ships obsolete in a generation or two at most. I guess I'd be surprised if that changed in the future and didn't carry over into starships (if/when they're ever built). If anything, I'd expect the pace of technology change to accelerate.
The main difference with Star Trek is that there is a large area of space and there are many enemies (as opposed to the limited confinements of earth and a small amount of enemies). As such, maintaining a fairly large fleet is a necessity, and unless you have some fairly impressive shipyards and production technologies, that means ships will need to have a fairly long service life as they can't be replaced quickly.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 04:49   #216
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Exclamation Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
The main difference with Star Trek is that there is a large area of space and there are many enemies (as opposed to the limited confinements of earth and a small amount of enemies). As such, maintaining a fairly large fleet is a necessity, and unless you have some fairly impressive shipyards and production technologies, that means ships will need to have a fairly long service life as they can't be replaced quickly.
I would say that if the Federation has a large fleet then that presupposes some fairly impressive shipyards and production technologies. Why is that less plausible?

Besides, for all their talk of peace and diplomacy, the Federation remains fundamentally expansionist. They have need of a large fleet.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 04:50   #217
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

****ing hell
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 09:24   #218
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Well, you need to keep in mind that the location of ships plays an equally important role. A ship travelling at Warp 9 takes 5 days to bridge 20 lightyears. Considering a good portion of older ships can't even sustain a Warp 9 cruising speed, and Federation space apparently spans 10,000 lightyears, there are bound to be a whole lot of ships that would be unable to respond to whatever situation quickly, simply due to being months if not years away.
The trouble is that the '10,000 light years' difference is never used in the series, unless the federation extends for an immense difference beyond the useful stuff (the major borders, Earth, etc), given that it generally takes about a week at most to travel from anywhere to anywhere (this is especialy a problem in DS9), and, as they're commercial transports, you'd think that the warp 5 speed limit (from 'Force of Nature') would apply, even if the enterprise ignores it (despite mentioning it every 5 minutes in subsequent episodes). Of course, continuity has never been a strong thing in Star Trek.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 10:23   #219
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In the general Trek universe though we're not really given a proper idea how large their fleets are though.
I explained this earlier.

About 600 ships to a Fleet (before the Dominion blew up half of them), and at least 10 Fleets.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 10:24   #220
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

In which case why is having 39 ships destroyed leaving the fleet readiness at an all time low
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 10:40   #221
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
In which case why is having 39 ships destroyed leaving the fleet readiness at an all time low
Because the "fleet" they're talking about is one specific Fleet rather than all of Starfleet?

Because whoever said that's an idiot?

Because 3/4 of the Fleets are hidden inside a nebula for emergencies?
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 11:04   #222
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by Proteus
Because whoever said that's an idiot?
Well, if memory serves it was an admiral talking to picard, and all admirals are stupid.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 12:19   #223
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

i dont feel so nerdy anymore
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:12   #224
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I would say that if the Federation has a large fleet then that presupposes some fairly impressive shipyards and production technologies.
Impressive by our standards, certainly. However, you have to take into account that it took the Utopia ******** shipyards alone 13 years to construct 4 Galaxy-class ships (hence a loss of even one would take quite some time to replace), and between the Borg and Dominion threat, both Earth Stations were converted into production bases. This shows that while you may class the Federation's producation capabilities as impressive, the Federation itself thought they weren't sufficient enough, and needed to speed things up.
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Besides, for all their talk of peace and diplomacy, the Federation remains fundamentally expansionist. They have need of a large fleet.
Indeed
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:20   #225
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
The trouble is that the '10,000 light years' difference is never used in the series, unless the federation extends for an immense difference beyond the useful stuff (the major borders, Earth, etc)
The 'core' of Federation space, containing earth, the main stations and whatnot, is also fairly close to the borders of the adjoining territories, such as the Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Cardassion Union, etc. Basically all the places to be are fairly close together so can likely be reached in a matter of weeks (which for the Wolf 359 incident was of course too long). However, Federation space also extends quite some way into the other direction; I presume Starfleet will have both a scientific and military presence in those areas as well.
Quote:
you'd think that the warp 5 speed limit (from 'Force of Nature') would apply
Newer vessels were designed in order not to destroy the universe while being at warp. Ships like the Akira, Steamrunner, Intrepid and Prometheus can sustain high warp cruise speeds without being bad for the environment
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:22   #226
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Newer vessels were designed in order not to destroy the universe while being at warp. Ships like the Akira, Steamrunner, Intrepid and Prometheus can sustain high warp cruise speeds without being bad for the environment
I was talking about passenger vessels dude, and I don't remember that applying for the Intrepid class, although it could have been noted later.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:25   #227
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
The 'core' of Federation space, containing earth, the main stations and whatnot, is also fairly close to the borders of the adjoining territories, such as the Klingon Empire, Romulan Empire, Cardassion Union, etc. Basically all the places to be are fairly close together so can likely be reached in a matter of weeks (which for the Wolf 359 incident was of course too long). However, Federation space also extends quite some way into the other direction; I presume Starfleet will have both a scientific and military presence in those areas as well.
Doesn't work though. It would mean that all the startrek stuff happens within about 5-20 lightyears of eath, which just isn't possible for the number of star systems they mention.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:28   #228
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Newer vessels were designed in order not to destroy the universe while being at warp. Ships like the Akira, Steamrunner, Intrepid and Prometheus can sustain high warp cruise speeds without being bad for the environment
It's more likely (I feel) that they discovered how to break the rule by accident when designing the Intrepid Class (Geordi mentions a rivalry he's having with the CEO of the Intrepid during Force of Nature) and it only involved a small upgrade that all ships could be quickly fitted with. The upgrade was so minor in fact that it could be done between episodes. This would explain how the rule was ignored so quickly after it was discovered.

Also, the Akira Class (class ship NCC-62497) and Steamrunner Class (lowest known number NCC-52136) predate TNG.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 14:30   #229
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

The thing is that they mention it, imply it still applies, then IGNORE IT.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 20:56   #230
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I explained this earlier.

About 600 ships to a Fleet (before the Dominion blew up half of them), and at least 10 Fleets.
God help me for getting involved in this thread.

Moden naval fleets have size and ship type according to their mission. Not all fleets would have the same number of ships. Thus fleets assigned to the front lines might have 600 ships, while fleets assigned to quieter sectors, like the Romulan border they keep say they are pulling ships away from, might have far fewer.

One has to assume they DS9 with the most powerful and numerous of their available forces, so for all we know those 600 ships were a full quarter of the fleet... but certainly, not all fleets would have the same number of ships.

Next, during the Cardassian-Romulan raid into Dominion space, it was the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian order that had been neutralised, not the Cardassians and Romulans.


lastly, for the difference between the fleet after wolf 359 and the fleet during the dominian war, just look at WWII. The US navy in 1939 was utterly pitiful, antiquated ships with a few modernish battleships and Carriers.

Prior to Wolf 359 the federation had never really been chlleneged as a whole. They kept a significant fleet to patrol, explore and guard the frontiers.

By 1945, 6 years later, the US navy had the largest navy on the planet, by mobilising unused resources to full scale war they had multiplied their naval strength by several entire orders of magnitude.

By the Dominion war, anout 10 years had passed since Wolf 359. I imagine an interstellar body like the federation could build some fairly impressive crap given 10 years and a kick in the pants by the Borg.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 21:15   #231
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Next, during the Cardassian-Romulan raid into Dominion space, it was the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian order that had been neutralised, not the Cardassians and Romulans.
The clarifier 'militarily' really should be used, as the dominion considered the Cardassians and the Romulans neutralised without their respective secret services.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 21:17   #232
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Jesus Christ.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 21:36   #233
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Moden naval fleets have size and ship type according to their mission. Not all fleets would have the same number of ships. Thus fleets assigned to the front lines might have 600 ships, while fleets assigned to quieter sectors, like the Romulan border they keep say they are pulling ships away from, might have far fewer.
You can't compare modern fleets to this situation, because Starfleet is defending one big long border, and does not need different fleets for different jobs. All fleets need to do exactly the same thing - defend against the Dominion. And it's hardly likely that Starfleet has an awfully large number of ships assigned to "quieter sectors", given how hard a beating they are taking on the front lines. I'd think it would be a push to say they have more than a couple of hundred ships not engaged in the war, and they would be supporting the fleet by ferrying around Admirals and carrying out diplomatic work that cannot be put off (like the Enterprise E in Insurrection).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
One has to assume they DS9 with the most powerful and numerous of their available forces, so for all we know those 600 ships were a full quarter of the fleet...
Leaving your entire border open to attack to recapture one station would be mad. Remember, Sisko has to persuade the Admiralty that this is a good idea, and only manages to scrape together 600 ships. I really can't see Starfleet saying "okay Sisko, you've got this crazy plan to retake your station, which we don't think will work, so have a quarter of the fleet".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
but certainly, not all fleets would have the same number of ships.
Why not? There is certainly never any indication that the Fleets are differentiated in size in any way and the vast majority seem to be fighting the Dominion. It would make little sense to have different sections of your border protected by different numbers or strengths of ships, because the enemy would just attack where there were fewest ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
lastly, for the difference between the fleet after wolf 359 and the fleet during the dominian war, just look at WWII. The US navy in 1939 was utterly pitiful, antiquated ships with a few modernish battleships and Carriers.

Prior to Wolf 359 the federation had never really been chlleneged as a whole. They kept a significant fleet to patrol, explore and guard the frontiers.

By 1945, 6 years later, the US navy had the largest navy on the planet, by mobilising unused resources to full scale war they had multiplied their naval strength by several entire orders of magnitude.

By the Dominion war, anout 10 years had passed since Wolf 359. I imagine an interstellar body like the federation could build some fairly impressive crap given 10 years and a kick in the pants by the Borg.
As I've already pointed out, the vast majority of ships in the DS9 fleets are older ships that had stopped being produced years, and in many cases decades, before the start of TNG, let alone the Borg threat. If the fleets were mainly new ships (perhaps lots of Defiants and Intrepids with 75XXX registries) then you'd have a point, but I can't see Starfleet building Mirandas and Excelsiors that had stopped being made in the 2340s to combat the Borg threat, especially given how effectively they were pulverised at Wolf 359 (and then, to finish the "crazy" effect, giving them back-dated registries for some unknown reason).
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 21:56   #234
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Next, during the Cardassian-Romulan raid into Dominion space, it was the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian order that had been neutralised, not the Cardassians and Romulans.
I know that, but as I said (and MrL has said) the founder remarks something like "Only the Klingons and the Federation pose a risk to us now" or something like that.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 23:18   #235
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Good God Man

Five Pages And We Are On Topic

Does Not Compute
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 23:19   #236
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

thats a nifty forum feature.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 23:24   #237
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
Five Pages And We Are On Topic
No we're not. This discussion has little to do with the title music for Enterprise being shit.
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Unread 26 Jan 2004, 23:29   #238
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

in the context of GD, on-topic generally is a wide definition :P
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 06:42   #239
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

what about eminem comming up with a quick rap about interpise

Look, its either the current song, or eminem, you choose

yo yo, cupple white crackas
and sum wak alien slackas
send to save the earth
from sum ass hole f**kas

they got they ship
tha enterpise
flying around
till the bastard dies

space distortions
enemy fleets
a creepy wankor,
beeting his meet

yo yo yo
enterprise and the cap'in
cruisen in space
fool gonna git capped
lost in space,,

damn yo..

and in the background elten john is moaning..
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 06:50   #240
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Exclamation Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
in the context of GD, on-topic generally is a wide definition :P
I don't think it's happened enough to warrant a definition.
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 11:25   #241
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdeathstar
and in the background elten john is moaning..
GB2PD.

Please.
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:01   #242
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I don't think it's happened enough to warrant a definition.
we are still talking about star trek
i think that is something to be proud of
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:12   #243
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

so... isn't Star Wars great
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:17   #244
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

I haven't heard the new Enterprise music, but Star Wars is pretty good so it sounds like it must be better.

I did like the original Enterprise music though.
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:18   #245
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

only on GD people spend more than 250 posts on a discussion about a SF series.
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:20   #246
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoeN
only on GD people spend more than 250 posts on a discussion about a SF series.
That's like saying 'only on GD do people post on forums'.

Do you know what the internets like duder?

[edit]

And arguably we've talked about 7 series.
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:24   #247
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

no mrl it's not the same :/

and talking about 7 series is even worse than talking about 1
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:25   #248
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

does "Alf" count as SF series btw?
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Unread 27 Jan 2004, 13:33   #249
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

No.

Edit: Damnit, T&F, now you've ruined my direct answer to KoeN's post above :(
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Unread 28 Jan 2004, 01:14   #250
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Re: could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
How could that have been a refitted Galaxy class? Last I saw it it looked completely different.
http://www.starfleetarchive.com/ships/?ID=800
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