could the title music for Enterprise have gotten any worse ??

[Mushroom]

Originally Posted by Proteus

It also had an enormous gun on the bottom of the saucer section.

That was a quantum torpedo launcher, i believe. Though it also had mounted phaser cannons on the top of the saucer.

Originally Posted by Proteus

The third nacelle just made it look dumb, though.

Yes, in fact, Gene Roddenberry said that nacelles would only ever work in pairs. Since he died they fked about with that one, didn't they? He'd turn in his orbit...

Originally Posted by Bunga

stealth capability

They must've run out of ideas

Originally Posted by Bunga

and it could go Warp 17 iirc.

Pfffft... if this was true they were really not thinking that day. I think it was Roddenberry who said that warp 10 was the maximum, where a ship would simultaneously occupy all positions in the universe at once or something daft like that. And anyway, you know what happens when you go at warp 10 - you turn into a slimy fishy thing and rodger the captain.

[Dante Hicks]

Yeah, the excuse about Warp 17 was that it was just a revamped warp speed system they were using. So Warp 17 was Warp 9.999 in actuality (or whatever).

p.s. I can't believe GD has a go at RP for being geeky

[Mushroom]

I see - it's a long time since i saw all good things

And i see what you mean. I really shouldn't have replied, i look like a trekkie now

[Bunga]

That excuse makes sense. Its not the best way to do things and I can think of a far more efficient method of taking about 9.999....999 just of the top of my head. I didn't like that epsiode, but blowing a hole in the klingons was cool. Like the Borg do to smaller Fed ships.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Mushroom

That was a quantum torpedo launcher, i believe.

Nope, it was a phaser cannon.

Also, it was Warp 13, not Warp 17.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Quantum Torpedoes only came in with the Defiant in DS9 (in real life chronology, not series chronology, obviously).

Quantum being the new buzzword.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Mushroom

Pfffft... if this was true they were really not thinking that day. I think it was Roddenberry who said that warp 10 was the maximum, where a ship would simultaneously occupy all positions in the universe at once or something daft like that

There is an explanation for that floating the web somewhere. Apparently there are two ways to express Warp velocity; namely the amount of power that you put into the engines, and the actual speed. Apparently at higher velocities the ship generates some sort of 'subspace drag' or something, meaning that an equal extra power input doesn't generate the same acceleration as at lower speeds.

As such, you should read that Warp 13 as: The engines are generating 13 times as many power as at Warp 1, and thus make the ship travel 9,99 times faster. Or something along those lines. Later on, the Warp system gets revamped and uses denominations from 1 to 9,99...9

There is some inconsistency with Warp 10 and Transwarp; in the Voyager episode in which Paris goes transwarp (also referred to as Warp 10), he's apparently everywhere at once. Yet the Borg possess transwarp technology and despite being able to travel faster than any warp vessel, they can't be everywhere at once either.

[Mushroom]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Nope, it was a phaser cannon.

Also, it was Warp 13, not Warp 17.

I have a way of disputing this, but it would make me look übergeeky so i won't.
Suffice to say, i have sources that told me it was a quantum torpedo launcher and the two things on top were phaser cannons.

[Bunga]

Warp 10 isn not the same as Transwarp. Warp 10 is muchg, much faster. I have always (well, since a cetain Voyager episode) thought about Warp speeds as tending toward infinate; that it, at Warp 10 your speed is infinate. Not sure why that forces you to start "evolving", but what the hell.

Still, there is so much discrepancy in the Star Trek universe, especially with the Enterprise series. After all, 6.3 lightyears is talked about as if it was "really really far", and at one point they mentioned a planet "a few light weeks away", when they already were in orbit around a planet. Forgive me for saying so, but... no.

On a side note, why does every single civilisation in that universe have just about the same technological level? 95% of all planets they visit are with a few hundred years of Earth's technological level, and the rest are 10,000 years behind. I can think of only one example of a civilisation which was almost a million years more advanced, and that was in TOS.

[Mushroom]

Originally Posted by Leshy

There is some inconsistency with Warp 10 and Transwarp; in the Voyager episode in which Paris goes transwarp (also referred to as Warp 10), he's apparently everywhere at once. Yet the Borg possess transwarp technology and despite being able to travel faster than any warp vessel, they can't be everywhere at once either.

But also if you note the third future enterprise in all good things is commonly referred to as the "transwarping enterprise".
*shrug*

Also, the borg tend use transwarp conduits which is sort of like a jump gate thing, rather than actually going at such speeds.
But there are so many inconsistencies in Star Trek that the producers have included that it's kinda silly for anyone to even try and level them out

[skiddy]

I ran a Star Trek RPG game once with some friends.

Being a nice narrator I decided to allow the group to 'find' a drifting Excelcior class starship, strangely intact but unmanned. Mark decided he would use this new finding as his personal taxi for the group.

Anyway to cut a long story short, Mark failed his intelligence check for piloting a starship (he hasn't got the skill and he rolled a natural 1) and flew his nice new spaceplane into an asteroid at Warp Five.

The group made new characters and Mark was never allowed to touch anything with lights ever again, to the point of replicating a 9mm Beretta so he didn't have a phaser.

[Bunga]

Which is the Excelsior class?

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Which is the Excelsior class?

The USS Excelsior as captained by Sulu in a few Star Trek films, as well as the USS Enterprise NCC-1701B.

Picture!

[MrL_JaKiri]

The B's a modified version

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

The B's a modified version

Nevertheless, it's still an Excelsior class ship.

[LHC]

BEGONE GEEK THREAD, BEGONE

[Bunga]

It looks like a smaller, more angular Soverign. Don't they have any inspiration, those designers?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

It looks like a smaller, more angular Soverign. Don't they have any inspiration, those designers?

There's not much you can actually do with the shape, tbh. Things like the Nebula class or the Challenger class are dramatically different.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

It looks like a smaller, more angular Soverign. Don't they have any inspiration, those designers?

Claiming that the two ships have the same base structure would be like critisising the US Navy for building boats that have the same basic layout as a Greek Trireme. They are quite different ships.

Sovereign vs. Excelsior.

[Bunga]

Saucer-section. Tail-bit. Necells.

Look at the alien ships. They don't follow that design. Look at the Vulcan ships from Enterprise, they look like sausages with waterwheels. Look at the Birds of Prey. Look at that Slipstream ship from Voyager. Even the Borg Cubes begin to look inspired after all those saucers-with-tails-and-necells.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Saucer-section. Tail-bit. Necells.

Look at the alien ships. They don't follow that design. Look at the Vulcan ships from Enterprise, they look like sausages with waterwheels. Look at the Birds of Prey. Look at that Slipstream ship from Voyager. Even the Borg Cubes begin to look inspired after all those saucers-with-tails-and-necells.

They're not all like that you fool.

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...ges/nebula.jpg

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...a_variant2.jpg

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...s/cheyenne.jpg

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...es/defiant.jpg

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...es/olympic.jpg

http://www.starfleetarchive.com/imag...ages/soyuz.jpg

There's much more variety in starfleet ships than in any other race.

Look at the romulans. They have about 2 ships at most.

[Mushroom]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Saucer-section. Tail-bit. Necells.

Look at the alien ships. They don't follow that design. Look at the Vulcan ships from Enterprise, they look like sausages with waterwheels. Look at the Birds of Prey. Look at that Slipstream ship from Voyager. Even the Borg Cubes begin to look inspired after all those saucers-with-tails-and-necells.

Saucers with tails and nacelles is just the trademark design of the federation... romulan ships all look vaguely bird-like, ferengi ships are curved at the back with a prong in the middle at the front, cardassian ships look like odd flat things, they're all similar within their own races.

[skiddy]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Look at the romulans. They have about 2 ships at most.

Erm, no they have a fair few, but even if you look at all the races they are all similar.

The Romulan Shrike class is basically a D'deridex class warbird but about 1/10000000000000000000000000000th the size and only has the one plane as opposed to having both planes.

The Brid of Prey follows the same design essentially as the Vorcha class, a bridge head section, engineering hull and a wing on each side - difference being that the BoP has pulse cannons where the Vorcha has its nacelles.

The Cardassians - well, all their classes are essentially Galor's with different dimensions.

Most of the other races are only rarely seen and the designers can afford to be creative with the ships. The Prometheus class and the ship from Voyager's slipstream episode both looked similar to Voyager itself, just slightly distorted and one without nacelles.

[Bunga]

Only two of those did not have a saucer section, a tail bit and the necells. The Cheyenne is freakish, but again is just a saucer thing with the necells. The soyuz is plain odd. I haven't seen the Olympic before, but I like it. Its original. It has a spherical head, at least, not a saucer head. And the Nebula is pretty cool.

[skiddy]

Is the Miranda Class wierd in that case?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Only two of those did not have a saucer section, a tail bit and the necells. The Cheyenne is freakish, but again is just a saucer thing with the necells. The soyuz is plain odd. I haven't seen the Olympic before, but I like it. Its original. It has a spherical head, at least, not a saucer head. And the Nebula is pretty cool.

Given that nigh on every ship in the ST universe has necelles, and the saucer section is a trademark of the federation, there's quite a lot of variety in there.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Only two of those did not have a saucer section, a tail bit and the necells. The Cheyenne is freakish, but again is just a saucer thing with the necells. The soyuz is plain odd. I haven't seen the Olympic before, but I like it. Its original. It has a spherical head, at least, not a saucer head. And the Nebula is pretty cool.

Spherical habitats are ugly, I believe the Olympic was an old science vessel design. It's not really odd that the ships use a variety of standard design frames. If you have a design which functions, then why alter it?

You need the nacelles in order to warp around the universe; it's not until the Voyager/DS9 era that nacelles start to be integrated into ship hulls on the smallest ship models (eg Defiant, Delta Flyer, Steamrunner). Larger vessels still require the external nacelles, and even then there are likely to still be a large number of older models still in service, and building new ships takes time. Having a completely new set of ships every 50 years would be fairly ridiculous.

Anyway, the best looking ships are of course the Akira and Steamrunner.

To whomever said that the Voyager (Intrepid) and Prometheus (Prometheus) are very similar: not really.

[Bunga]

Allright, but not all necells have that rectangular, elongated shape. And not all necells are set on prongs extending from a tail. Only the Fed ships do that. In ships like Voyager or Soverign class ships it is kind of pretty, but it just gets boring after nearly all the fed ships follow that design.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Allright, but not all necells have that rectangular, elongated shape.

Yes, they do.

And not all necells are set on prongs extending from a tail.

Nearly all of them are.

Only the Fed ships do that.

On Klingon and Dominion ships the nacelles are frequently on the wingtips, I can't really recall any other race using nacelles in their design.

Oh, and the Intrepid and Sovereign are two of the newest ship classes; all the ships you critisise for having nacelles had them long before either of those

[Bunga]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Oh, and the Intrepid and Sovereign are two of the newest ship classes; all the ships you critisise for having nacelles had them long before either of those

I knew that, but those designs actually look good. The Prometheus is even newer iirc, and it doesn't look that good. Being new != looking good.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

I knew that, but those designs actually look good. The Prometheus is even newer iirc, and it doesn't look that good. Being new != looking good.

You said that the twin nacelle design can look good, but that it gets boring when they keep on using it. As apparently it's two of the newest ships following that design that you do like, that contradicts your statement.

And how you can say this is not a sexy ship is beyond me

Edit: Wrong tag there.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Bad vb leshy

[Bunga]

It doesn't contradict my statement. Just luck that they finally, after probably 30 or 40 twin-nacell designs, hit on two with looked good. The ones designed after the Soverign or Intrepid, ie the Promeheus, don't look very good. That triangular head, while it isn't a saucer, is even worse.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

It doesn't contradict my statement.

It does actually.

[Bunga]

No it doesn't.

[madi]

my thread got really nerdy

i just popped in because i am watching the episode i missed on monday due to my sky being down and i was wondering ....


why do all the aliens eat bugs?

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Having a completely new set of ships every 50 years would be fairly ridiculous.

And yet the major terrestrial navies have been turning over their fleets at least that often for several centuries. The current oldest active commissioned ship in the US Navy, for example, is the USS Kitty Hawk, commissioned in 1961.

Even discounting the odd war and normal wear-and-tear, your ships (and ship designs) ought to be completely obsolete in 50 years and suitable only for the scrapheap (or, possibly, resale to the Betazeds for use as Love Yachts).

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by madi

why do all the aliens eat bugs?

It's an enforcement of Eurocentric/racist ideas as most of Trek.

Similarly, the species with black majorities (or black characteristics) are agressive/irrational or violent. It's all good. "White" species are allowed to be violent too but they're always more rational about it (Cardassians, the Borg, Romulans, etc).

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

Even discounting the odd war and normal wear-and-tear, your ships (and ship designs) ought to be completely obsolete in 50 years and suitable only for the scrapheap (or, possibly, resale to the Betazeds for use as Love Yachts).

Also, budget problems don't see to be a problem for the Federation, so one presumes they get a green light from their Congress for unlimited military spending.

Also, didn't all their ships get done at Wolf 359 anyway?

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Also, didn't all their ships get done at Wolf 359 anyway?

39 ships were destroyed at Wolf 359, out of a fleet numbering about 6,000.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Also, budget problems don't see to be a problem for the Federation, so one presumes they get a green light from their Congress for unlimited military spending.

Whether their budget is unlimited or not won't keep their ships from becoming obsolete. Sure, they can keep their Constellation-class starships flying for four hundreds years but they won't be much more than a speed bump to the Romulans or the Cardassians, let alone the Borg or the Dominion.

And whether they build one new ship a year or a hundred, they'll still want to use the latest technology and designs.

Also, didn't all their ships get done at Wolf 359 anyway?

All that managed to get there in time, presumably.

[Bunga]

Metal fatigue alone should force them to build new ships quite often.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Proteus

39 ships were destroyed at Wolf 359, out of a fleet numbering about 6,000.

Having a fleet that large doesn't make sense, because they keep on going on about how they're running short of ships, after Wolf.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Tactitus

The current oldest active commissioned ship in the US Navy, for example, is the USS Kitty Hawk, commissioned in 1961.

Actually, that would be the USS Constitution from 1797

As for the 50 year mark, that is indeed a tad long. The Ambassador class was only 30 years old when the Galaxy class was designed to replace it. However, decommissioning ships in Star Trek is apparently not done as fast (at least not before going through several refits), and ships can last for a good amount of time. I presume 'wear and tear' is less of a concern in Star Trek than it is in real life. As such the upgrade cycle is fast enough, but it takes a longer period of time before older ships are actually all replaced and decommissioned.

Originally Posted by Bunga

Metal fatigue alone should force them to build new ships quite often.

Star Trek ships aren't built out of metal

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Having a fleet that large doesn't make sense, because they keep on going on about how they're running short of ships, after Wolf.

There were about 600 ships in a Fleet before the Dominion War ("elements" of the 2nd and 5th Fleets formed a task force of 600 to retake DS9, and that was after prolonged conflict), and there were at least 10 Fleets. As the vast majority of ships seen in the Dominion War weren't being built at the time (they were mainly Mirandas and Excelsiors, with a few Galaxies and Steamrunners thrown in, and all with lowish registries), it stands to reason that they existed before the War.

When Shelley said they'd have to rebuild the fleet, she probably meant the Earth Defence Fleet or whatnot.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Having a fleet that large doesn't make sense, because they keep on going on about how they're running short of ships, after Wolf.

I suspect a large percentage of their fleet are non-combatants (research vessels, transports, tenders, garbage scows, etc). Plus they have a lot of commitments: starting with the Romulan and Cardassian frontiers to patrol, civil war in the Klingon empire, Borg popping up at odd times; then a full-scaled war with the Dominion.

Judging how overcommitted the Enterprise was, it seems clear that Star Fleet (and probably the whole Federation) was teetering on the brink.

[Bunga]

Well if Star Fleet were to fall, so would the whole Federation. The Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion and Borg would see to that.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Bunga

The Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion and Borg would see to that.

They might be a tad too busy fighting each other to actively hunt down the Federation.

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by Leshy

Actually, that would be the USS Constitution from 1797

The Constitution still holds a commission but is not considered an active ship; hence my use of that qualifier.

At any rate, I presume the Federation fleet is a tad larger than the US Navy, and the building of these vessels likely takes more resources and time than that of the US Navy ships, making for a slower upgrade cycle.

I don't see how that follows. Today's ships take far more resources and more time to build than did ships 200 years ago; yet I would say they become obsolete as fast if not faster.

In addition, ships in Star Trek seem to be regularly refitted and receiving systems upgrades, which lengthens their life span considerably as well.

Navy ships get regular refits and systems upgrades.

And I'm not even mentioning the fact that our earth ships only have a limited lifespan due to issues such as metal fatigue; something Star Trek ships don't necessarily suffer from.

You must have watched a different Star Trek.

[skiddy]

The Klingons might as well be another member of the Federation now, the Cardassians are hardly a force to fear after the losses they took in the Dominion War, the Dominion are in a different quadrant and I'm sure DS9 has some plans up it's sleeve incase of another incursion.

The Borg are pretty much screwed now when it comes to long range travel after Voyager managed to rape its Transwarp hub.

That pretty much sums it up.

The Romulans would be the biggest threat as they've been waiting for their opportunity for years now...