Blocking the EU constitution.

[Weeks]

I'm getting quite excited about it.
I wish i could get the EU Parliament TV thing working.
Just so i could see everyone else put there heads in their hands come the vote.

I was reading something about the Lib Dem's EU bloke saying Labour were being a shower of bastards for having so many red lines and not comprimising. Made me sad, as i will probably vote lib dem in the nationals.

[Baron Morte]

Is europe trying to come up with a constitution that would apply to all of its members?
Thats ****ing insane!

[Weeks]

yup
edit, well not insane...

[Bunga]

No, its ****ing clever!

[JonnyBGood]

Almost as insane as having a constitution that applies to 280 million people!






Edit: o wai

[Baron Morte]

I am betting on mind control gadgets to enforce such a constitution

[Weeks]

Are you?

[Phang]

the EU constitution is a sacred document that cannot be changed or disrespected.

[Baron Morte]

No, not really...
I just wanted to emphasise the hardness of imposing the same consitution to a wide host of people

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by Phang

the EU constitution is a sacred document that cannot be changed or disrespected.

Arent all constitutions made upon this statement?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

No, not really...
I just wanted to emphasise the hardness of imposing the same consitution to a wide host of people

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Almost as insane as having a constitution that applies to 280 million people!






Edit: o wai

Is anyone catching on?

[Baron Morte]

No, you are way faster than me.




On a sidenote..
USA is one country. Europe is one continent, made up with a hole lot of different people(by that i mean the humans that live in one given country) and different views about different things

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

No, you are way faster than me.




On a sidenote..
USA is one country. Europe is one continent, made up with a hole lot of different people(by that i mean the humans that live in one given country) and different views about different things

Shock horror across GD as it emerges that Americans in fact came from many different countries. It's hardly like there's massive divergences in vital areas among EU countries (note that the EU is not "Europe"). I mean the French have avoided going to war with the germans for over fifty years now!

[Bunga]

Yes... but was the USA one country even 50 years before the constitution was created? You will forgive me, but my knowledge of things which happened over three hundred year on a different continent isn't complete.

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Shock horror across GD as it emerges that Americans in fact came from many different countries. It's hardly like there's massive divergences in vital areas among EU countries (note that the EU is not "Europe"). I mean the French have avoided going to war with the germans for over fifty years now!

Excuse me but up until the end of the XIX century USA was an anglo saxonic country, with a strong, self built culture, and the ones that started coming in came free willing to live under the american way of life, and adopting it as their own.
A whole lot different than always living in your country, and then having to use someones elses values.

[Weeks]

hijackers.

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by Weeks

hijackers.

I´m terribly sorry.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

Excuse me but up until the end of the XIX century USA was an anglo saxonic country, with a strong, self built culture, and the ones that started coming in came free willing to live under the american way of life, and adopting it as their own.
A whole lot different than always living in your country, and then having to use someones elses values.

Actually they came from all over the British Isles for reasons of economic opportunity (massive irish immigration from about 1830 onwards being one example). Back then the British Isles was hardly a single culture by any stretch of the imagination. It's not like the country suddenly broke down at the turn of the century either. Using someone else's values? Have you even read the EU constitution? Most EU countries actually have convergent values in many areas, freedom of speech, religion, basic human rights, private property laws. We're not exactly proposing the formation of a common constitution for communist russia and the USA here. And not to state the blindingly obvious but no matter what you propose if you take a large enough sample you'll always have people disagreeing no matter how sensible what you propose seems. This is why the US constitution was never put to a vote and was agreed to by the deputies of each state rather than the unanimous consent of every individual living on the east coast of America.




PS Anyone know what exactly the main sticking points in this EU constitution controversy are?

[Weeks]

Tax, Defence, and some other harmonisation.
Poland and Spain don't like it cos they'll lose votes in Big Bad Brussels.
Poland were pushing of the insertion of 'God rulez am i rite?'. France didn't like that very much.
Poland are backing us on getting rid of Tax and Defence harm. As long as we back there 'Poland wants more votes' trip. *hug*

edit: they're now meeting in Italy now to have a big constitution love-in.

[Baron Morte]

the isles fought napoleon, didnt them?
Napoleon, which was european. The isles, enormously uneven.
Humm... that must tell something about this matter...

I can´t believe that you are actually arguing that it was easier to make the US constitution than to make a constitution to a whole continent with almost 3 times more people.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

PS Anyone know what exactly the main sticking points in this EU constitution controversy are?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2950276.stm

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

the isles fought napoleon, didnt them?
Napoleon, which was european. The isles, enormously uneven.
Humm... that must tell something about this matter...

The americans also had a civil war. The irish have fought each other in the past. As have the spanish, the italians, the germans, the french, the dutch have fought the germans and the french, the scots have fought the english, the welsh have fought their own shadow, the irish fought the english, the poles have fought the russians, the poles have fought the germans, the austrians have fought the italians, the russians have fought each other, the austrians have fought the hungarians, the czechs have fought the slovaks, the germans have fought everyone, the swedes have fought the russians, the norwegians, the danes and the germans (prussians). Most people alive today in Eu countries have never fought each other either. And I had to guess what you meant above due to the fact you have a decided lack of coherence.

I can´t believe that you are actually arguing that it was easier to make the US constitution than to make a constitution to a whole continent with almost 3 times more people.

I'm not, don't be an idiot.

Originally Posted by Weeks

Tax, Defence, and some other harmonisation.
Poland and Spain don't like it cos they'll lose votes in Big Bad Brussels.
Poland were pushing of the insertion of 'God rulez am i rite?'. France didn't like that very much.
Poland are backing us on getting rid of Tax and Defence harm. As long as we back there 'Poland wants more votes' trip. *hug*

Some people are unconscionable idiots.

[Phang]

lets just all vote Tony into office as Super-Continent-Prime Minister am i rite

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The americans also had a civil war. The irish have fought each other in the past. As have the spanish, the italians, the germans, the french, the dutch have fought the germans and the french, the scots have fought the english, the welsh have fought their own shadow, the irish fought the english, the poles have fought the russians, the poles have fought the germans, the austrians have fought the italians, the russians have fought each other, the austrians have fought the hungarians, the czechs have fought the slovaks, the germans have fought everyone, the swedes have fought the russians, the norwegians, the danes and the germans (prussians). Most people alive today in Eu countries have never fought each other either. And I had to guess what you meant above due to the fact you have a decided lack of coherence.

If you are counting "unification wars" then any given country will have fought itself. The secession war, as implyed, was not an unification war.

What you said about the countries fighting each other mean that europe (specially before the 1648 agreements) liked to cultivate their differences to the point of war.



Barbarossa, bismark, aragon, martel, lemagne(cant spell the name of the french leader around the 900´s, carolingean empire) All fought their own people with the idea of union. That does not mean they are different.


well
what the hell am I babling about? Im an incoehrent sod =(
and i dont even know what I am talking about, and nor do i know why you made that last post =/

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

If you are counting "unification wars" then any given country will have fought itself. The secession war, as implyed, was not an unification war.

What you said about the countries fighting each other mean that europe (specially before the 1648 agreements) liked to cultivate their differences to the point of war.



Barbarossa, bismark, aragon, martel, lemagne(cant spell the name of the french leader around the 900´s, carolingean empire) All fought their own people with the idea of union. That does not mean they are different.


well
what the hell am I babling about? Im an incoehrent sod =(
and i dont even know what I am talking about, and nor do i know why you made that last post =/

I have no idea what you're on about. In fact I didn't really get your last post. You seemed to say that the fact napoleon (who wasn't british) fought the british indicated something but to be honest the meaning of the phrase

the isles fought napoleon, didnt them?
Napoleon, which was european. The isles, enormously uneven.
Humm... that must tell something about this matter...

escapes me.

[wu_trax]

oh great. x years for finding that damn compromise and now all is started over again :/
i hope they get through with this quite soon (especially the majority vote seems to be important) or else nothing will ever happen again within the eu because to find a compromise everyone agrees to between 25 members seems to be quite difficult.

[Baron Morte]

I wanted to point out how US has a far more consolidated culture than europe.

You said that even the coutries in europe are not even themselves.

I tried to imply that these diferences in the isle did not stoped them from fighting the same foe.

And also prove, again, that europe is very uneven

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

I wanted to point out how US has a far more consolidated culture than europe.

Okay.

You said that even the coutries in europe are not even themselves.

What?

I tried to imply that these diferences in the isle did not stoped them from fighting the same foe.

Okay, but the USSR and the US fought together once hardly means they're ideologically similar.

And also prove, again, that europe is very uneven

What? By uneven do you mean incompatible?



WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE SWEET SUNNY JESUS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

[Phang]

what about the iraq crisis?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Phang

what about the iraq crisis?

there was no common position?

[Phang]

there's a difference between 'unity' and 'having the same opinion on every world event ever'

[Phang]

ps

plural = s
posessive = 's

[Bunga]

What this shows is that the EU isn't yet united. Saying "since we aren't 100% together today, we should scrap the whole thing" is silly.

[Baron Morte]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

What?

you implied that USA werent an even culture because the people who lived there did not get along very well. I proved you wrong by saying that they fought napoleon, and that the fights that theyve had are similar to other fights of unification that happend trhought europe (thats why that list of names)

Okay, but the USSR and the US fought together once hardly means they're ideologically similar.

They´ve fought togheter because before WW2 the CCCP did not represented a threath to US´s position, or vice-versa. Also because if the germans won, they would be in deep shit, because as CCCP shown themselves to be reclusive and mindful their own bussiness, the germans were belligerant and unstable.
Not much to with the isles, as thei fought for their own country...

What? By uneven do you mean incompatible?

No, but certainly harder to make a constitution to.

WHAT IN THE NAME OF THE SWEET SUNNY JESUS ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

I wish i knew =(

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Azaghal

So even in a unity one part can say "yes we support you, please bomb iraq" and the other part can say "**** you, you lot are more dangerous than iraq ever will be"?

You mean like the protestors in America and the politicians opposed to the war did?

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Baron Morte

you implied that USA werent an even culture because the people who lived there did not get along very well. I proved you wrong by saying that they fought napoleon, and that the fights that theyve had are similar to other fights of unification that happend trhought europe (thats why that list of names)

Even is not the word you're looking for. All you need for a constitution is a limited number of generally accepted beliefs. Also the US did not fight napoleon and the rest of your last sentence makes no sense at all.

They´ve fought togheter because before WW2 the CCCP did not represented a threath to US´s position, or vice-versa. Also because if the germans won, they would be in deep shit, because as CCCP shown themselves to be reclusive and mindful their own bussiness, the germans were belligerant and unstable.
Not much to with the isles, as thei fought for their own country...

So we can agree that conflicting ideologies don't always mean that you can't work together with someone?

No, but certainly harder to make a constitution to.

Of course it's harder, but hardly impossible.

I wish i knew =(

Me too, I still have no idea what the whole napoleon thing has to do with anything heh.

[Bunga]

Jonny beat me to it

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Azaghal

As always the 'bigger countries' as pushing through their own agenda.

so do the smaller ones. (one member of the commision for everyone, as an example)

I'm fine with being ruled by the EU, but not by being ruled by France-Germany.

ok, fine with me. then lets make things more democratic and let the parilament take more of the power. but as soon as that happens the smaller countries start crying again, because they dont have enough influence.

Especially after them ****ing up the stability pact, "the rules we set don't count for us, they only count for smaller countries that we can bully".

yes, that was indeed crap (see here )

The euro was a bad idea anyway, monetary unity comes from political unity, not the other way around.

it works both ways. i dont think the euro is in too much trouble, even now.

The EU is a community of all countries, not just France+Germany+UK+IT and the rest.

yes, but its normal that the larger country have more influence, isnt it?

Holland is a larger netto contributor to the EU than France. Mainly because France (primarily) is the one trying to keep the CAP standing.

yes, the CAP is completly crap, but im certain it will fall apart completly in the next 15 years, simply because noone can pay for all these farmers in eastern europe. but yes, france pays very little (although its a lot more than the bbc says, just in case you read this there. the bbc used data from 2000 when france paid only a few hundred million, while in 2002 it was more than 2 billion) you are right about the netherlands though, they pay more per capita than anyone else.

The CAP is bad for everyone, it's bad for the tax-payers (we pay the farmers), it's bad for 3d world farmers, and it's a waste of money.

agreed

And then I don't even need to refer to the Iraq crisis.

thats why we need a common foreign affairs policy. im sure we could have found a compromise everyone could live with if only someone would have tryed. but instead everyone said what they thought is right.

[Phang]

yes. thus, either:

1)The USA should just be SA ()
2)Europe isn't disunited

?

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Phang

yes. thus, either:

1)The USA should just be SA ()
2)Europe isn't disunited

?

I like your "X does A and is B, Y also does A and so is B" argument.

Logic++

[Bunga]

He is saying that since the citizens Europe and the USA are acting in the same way, the two countries are just as united/disunited.

BTW, is "disunited" a word?

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Bunga

BTW, is "disunited" a word?

Yes.

And you can't base a judgement on how united a place is on one subject alone.

[Bunga]

True. And when you factor everything into account, the EU is just about as "united" ideologically as the USA is.

[Proteus]

One fundamental difference is that people in the US consider themselves Americans first and Californians (or whatever) second, whereas in Europe it's the other way around.

[Bunga]

Not everyone. There is a growing movement of people calling themselves just "Europeans".

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Bunga

True. And when you factor everything into account, the EU is just about as "united" ideologically as the USA is.

if you take everything into account we are ideoligically as united with the usa as which each other. not much more.
that isnt such a bad thing though, the diversity within the EU might show ways a unified country like the US (or the single EU-members, for that matter) would never see.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Not everyone. There is a growing movement of people calling themselves just "Europeans".

Not here there isn't.

The vast majority of people here don't even consider themselves "British", but rather "English" or "Scottish" or whatever.

[Bunga]

What about "The Iraq Crisis"? There was similar outcry all over the world. By your reasoning, just abour every sinlge country in the world is "not a unity".

[Bunga]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Not here there isn't.

The vast majority of people here don't even consider themselves "British", but rather "English" or "Scottish" or whatever.

Yes there is.




See how fun it is to contradict each other without making any other points? Do you know what the words "growing movement" mean and/or imply?

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Yes there is.

There's a growing movement in Britain calling themselves Europeans?