Eat your own Shit, US !

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Insane. Badger

The difference being the US's sanctions are retalitory as opposed to protectionism.

So nothing to do with the banning of thestuff because no-one knows what effect the hormones will have on humans ?

Vaio

[Intrepid00]

Ok, be a media eating bastard. Havn't you reliezed everything can kill you now. Espically those damn fluffy bunnies laying eggs in your rectum.

[Vaio]

first bunny comes near me, I get new fur covered slippers

Vaio

[Insane. Badger]

Originally Posted by Vaio

they had no rights to impose them without a WTO-decission though.
Vaio

The WTO ruled against the EU on the grounds that it had no scientific basis for the ban. The EU just decided to ignore them.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Insane. Badger

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Vaio

they had no rights to impose them without a WTO-decission though.
Vaio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WTO ruled against the EU on the grounds that it had no scientific basis for the ban. The EU just decided to ignore them.

I didnt say that did I ?

Vaio

[Dace]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

What I was aiming at was saying that the increased cost of the seeds, at the minute anyway, negates the increased yields and lower cost of fertilisers, pesticides et al.

Truth Speak.

(i read New Scientist and this is what it tells me)

[Dace]

Originally Posted by idimmu

re. 2

ahahahahahaha idiot, its not just life expectancy, but quality of life

I am told by the Government not to drink more than 2 pints a day and 10 in a week.

I'd rather drink alot more than this.

Drinking more than is 'scientifically advisable' improves my quality of life atm (i enjoy myself).

I might have liver trouble later (but i doubt it).

YOUR ARGUMENT JUST CRASHED AND BURNED!

[Intrepid00]

The problem with drinking is not will you receive liver damge cause you will. Its more of a question is your liver a quiter and going to give up on you (Stupid pussy liver)

[Deepflow]

My liver is a hardass

[Dace]

Originally Posted by idimmu

My arguement just rose from it's ashes and pissed all over your parade sonny!

No it didn't.

Your argument seemed to be "well you might live as long but you wont enjoy yourself".

I was just pointing out that that's not necessarily the case.

[Intrepid00]

Nah, if you drink enough you will drink yourself stupid as well.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by W

Chocolate flavoured milk and strawbery flavoured milk has both been for sale here for years, right next to eachother on the shelf, without anyone getting the two mixed up.

What the **** are you talking about?

its almost impossible to buy non-GM soja (not that i eat that stuff, just an example; anyway, that stuff is feed to animals so that everyone already has eaten indirect GM-food, no matter if they wanted or not)
once GM-plants are grown they get mixed up with non-GM-plants and sooner or later everything becomes GM.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

once GM-plants are grown they get mixed up with non-GM-plants and sooner or later everything becomes GM.

.........................................................evidenceta.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

.........................................................evidenceta.

Argentina

[W]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

its almost impossible to buy non-GM soja (not that i eat that stuff, just an example; anyway, that stuff is feed to animals so that everyone already has eaten indirect GM-food, no matter if they wanted or not)
once GM-plants are grown they get mixed up with non-GM-plants and sooner or later everything becomes GM.

But what has that to do with importing food products? I could understand it if you were talking about importing seeds and livestock, but this is about finished foodstuffs!



BTW, humans aren't the first to change genes you know. There's this whole EVOLUTION thing going on as well.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by W

But what has that to do with importing food products? I could understand it if you were talking about importing seeds and livestock, but this is about finished foodstuffs!

once importing the products starts, who can gurantee that the people are told which product is GM and which isnt?
(well, and its an easy way to protect our agricultrual market from us-competition and a market-segment where european companies dont stand a chance, because the whole continent is far too 'green'.)

BTW, humans aren't the first to change genes you know. There's this whole EVOLUTION thing going on as well.

but that was a natrual development, not some planed action. who says that scientist will stop with plants? after that they start changing animals and then probalby humans and after that we live in a gattaca-like-world.

[Intrepid00]

Basically EU being afraid of GM products is because EU is afraid of change. You think the same chicken you eat today was the same chicken the caveman eat.

[W]

Back on the list with you.

Originally Posted by wu_trax

once importing the products starts, who can gurantee that the people are told which product is GM and which isnt?

The governments being imported to?

Originally Posted by wu_trax

but that was a natrual development, not some planed action.

Wouldn't that make it LESS dangerous? Something planned to be beneficial and tested for any dangers is sure less likely to kill us than random mutations and selection for survival...

Originally Posted by wu_trax

who says that scientist will stop with plants?

The governments that allow them to alter plants? Do you have any basis at all for this slippery-slope argument that if you allow one thing you sooner or later will allow another no matter how much you don't want to?

Originally Posted by wu_trax

after that they start changing animals and then probalby humans and after that we live in a gattaca-like-world.

"they" are "us". You show dangerous symptoms of lack of individuality, with all the "us against them" stuff, incoherent arguments and fictional scenarios, and a lack of wanting to learn stuff for yourself. Grow a spine, study what you preach (study, not read about), and someone might consider your opinion.

[Bunga]

One fear is that the mutagens which carry the DNA changes will somehow live on and "infect" other things than it was meant to change.

I am all for genetic manipulation. But It hasn't yet ben fully tested and is in no way fully understood. Once it is, I want to be GM:ed, if possible. Live longer, be stronger, healthier and smarter. But not untill it is fully tested andsafe, which it isn't yet.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Tests have been going on for over a decade in some parts of england.

[Bunga]

Yes. A decade. Whoho...! Not. We still don't understand how DNA works, really. We don't have any idea what most of it does, the "junk DNA". You may have heard of it.

We don't even know why its the shape it is! All DNA is "left handed" spiral. Chemically, right handed ones are just as common but the don't exist in nature. Why?

How about this. When you can answer that question, I'll buy your GM:Ed food.

[Proteus]

I would suggest you don't try to lecture MrL on science...

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

We don't even know why its the shape it is! All DNA is "left handed" spiral. Chemically, right handed ones are just as common but the don't exist in nature. Why?

Probably the same reason that molecules can be accepted or rejected by the body, depending on their chirality.

As for the rest, we have a reasonable understanding of what DNA does, and research is progressing.

However, we don't understand Quantum Theory either (especially when combined with GR), and yet we still use that.

Many of the flaws of GM are recognised by the scientists involved, but that's no reason to go off on a crusade.

[Bunga]

I know thats usually a bad idea (like arguing with Jenny about physics sometimes... don't want to do that again) but in this case its true. We don't know that much about DNA or what makes it tick, so to speak.

True Jenny. But cd players don't thave the ability to kill me, even theoretically. Magnetic storage devices can't even theoretically make me grow a third ear on my forehead. Computers cannot make me glow in the dark.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

I know thats usually a bad idea (like arguing with Jenny about physics sometimes... don't want to do that again) but in this case its true. We don't know that much about DNA or what makes it tick, so to speak.

I'm not saying that GM foods are totally safe, just that work has been ongoing, and that the public reaction is a tad over the top.

ps.

I personally love the irony of calling them 'Frankenstein Foods', when Frankenstein is a fable about people misunderstanding and rejecting science (to some degree).

[Bunga]

I'm all for the work continuing, but I don't want the food sold before we are sure what its effects will be.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Bunga

I'm all for the work continuing, but I don't want the food sold before we are sure what its effects will be.

Whilst we'll never be sure what the effects will be, if the food is released for sale (in this country at least), I'm reasonably confident that it's safe.

Anyway, it's not the food itself that will be unsafe.

[Bunga]

I distrust anything which has been cleared by the FDA by principle.

[W]

We know pretty much everything about the mechanics of dna. It's the specific mappings of genes->proteins and their functions that we don't have clear. It's like saying we don't understand satellite mapping because we don't have a complete map of the planet.

And please tell me more about this "junk DNA" please, you sound like you've studied it.


Besides, they haven't fully tested bread and water either. It might cause cancer!



(Yes, there are dangers involving genetic manipulation. Not to humans tho, but to existing species. If you're one of those who on principle don't want any species to go extinct, yell all you want about that.)

[Intrepid00]

Originally Posted by Bunga

I distrust anything which has been cleared by the FDA by principle.

There are some clever Aseop tales that give this as an example.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Bunga

We don't even know why its the shape it is! All DNA is "left handed" spiral. Chemically, right handed ones are just as common but the don't exist in nature. Why?

the answers to this will lie in abiogenesis. note also that in amino acids found in some asteroids, while the mix is mostly racemic, there is often a slight bias towards left handedness. If I recall correctly some of the catalysts for these things also pic an optical handedness too. In the grand scheme of things though, knowing why things are all left handed is not important, as it only has an impact on the origins of life.

[MrL_JaKiri]

I said that earlier.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Bunga

Yes. A decade. Whoho...! Not. We still don't understand how DNA works, really. We don't have any idea what most of it does, the "junk DNA". You may have heard of it.

yeah, Junk DNA is a bit of a misnomer really. there are vast stretches of DNA that do not do anything, but these inadvertedly play an important evolutionary role, namely they allow for new information to arise. Withoout this ability for DNA to copy and repeat vast stretches of itself for no particular reason, then an important tool for evolutionary diversity would be lost.
A good example of this is nylon eating bacteria, in which a frame shift mutation turned a section of repeated DNA into a useful enzyme that broke down nylon. Lots of non-coding sections of DNA do serve useful functions though. I'm not up to speed on this stuff so I will let someone else clue you in on those.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I said that earlier.

must have missed it

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

must have missed it

It wasn't particularly in depth, just saying that sometimes only one chiral variant can be accepted.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

It wasn't particularly in depth, just saying that sometimes only one chiral variant can be accepted.

oh right, but that is interaction with modern life though. the reason why we are left handed as opposed to right handed will be down to the starting conditions for life.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

oh right, but that is interaction with modern life though. the reason why we are left handed as opposed to right handed will be down to the starting conditions for life.

Why?

It's enzymic action all the way baby.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Why?

It's enzymic action all the way baby.

well early on in the abiogenesis lark I doubt there would have been much in the way of enzymes.

[Devilizer]

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Shove enough fluffy bunnies up your ass and I bet you get cancer.

Or one very pink diarea...

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

well early on in the abiogenesis lark I doubt there would have been much in the way of enzymes.

My desire for a concise statement defeats itself again!

All this business is to do with catalysts, yes?

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

My desire for a concise statement defeats itself again!

All this business is to do with catalysts, yes?

yes.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Well then.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Well then.

well it appears we are in agreement, unsuprisingly

[MrL_JaKiri]

Most satisfactory!

[Radical Edward]

indubitably.