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View Poll Results: Which set should be run for R74
Balanced set (Speedgame server) 42 51.22%
More random set (Beta server) 34 41.46%
I vote blank 6 7.32%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 19:09   #51
Shhhhhhh
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Apart from adding an emp anti co to Cat my spider change wouldn't affect any other interactions in Jintaos matrix. And because it's emp it would still be classed as a land regardless.

I think the spider change atleast makes fi a bit more playable especially from a defensive standpoint. Atm as you say its only FR and Co that are worth playing. I think my change adds DE and Fi to the equation.
Sorry i still have nightmares from an earlier cath co vs spiders round, but yes its a better option than current shipstats. It makes Co a bit weaker if spiders have same init or better than beetles ( and shoot co). It makes it similar to Flea stopping cath FR.

It leaves the same problem as earlier tho, theres different degrees in 'stopping' .

Pretty much any amount of Vinds would stop a fi attack from landing,( because all the Vinds get to shoot first, doing almost their own value in damage and giving you salvage to make sure you lose less than attacker.) pretty much any amount of Cutlass would stop DE from landing, so the amount of value needed is very low compared to the attacking value.

With Flea stopping FR by EMPing the full attacking FR fleet, the amount of value needed to stop the attacking value is a lot higher. It can still be the best option to stop FR, cuz all the other anti FR ships take more value , but compared to the value needed to stop a DE attack or a Fi attack, you need a lot more value in Flea's.

Which makes the CO and the FR very tempting as options. However there's no real easy fix for this because you can't just add EMP to each attacking combo, so I think lowering Cath EMP effs a bit and making sure theres another EMP def ship that has same init or lower vs the EMP attacking fleet is the best we can do.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 19:55   #52
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Pure Harpies are always better against Co than Harpies with Phantoms, in any ratio.
My point is that this is false, a combination of the two is better against pure EMP. But add any significant Etd fleet to the mix and Harpy would be better due to init. For defensive support planets, I'd still pick Phantom any day, but Harpy is pretty good for those that attack or only defend with Alliance Fleets.


If we really do go down the road of changing Spider or Lancer to EMP vs Co, don't do a straight up fire-first interaction, but make one or the other higher init with very high ERes. Simply throwing 60-65% of value in Spider against a Cat Co inc will otherwise be the most used action in a DC's repertoire. Something like Beetle init 1, Spider 2, Flea 3, Moth 4, with increasing ERes to deal with being later EMP.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 19:56   #53
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I'm not a fan of ST in general but of the two sets I vote for the beta set as it looks more interesting
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 20:09   #54
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
My point is that this is false, a combination of the two is better against pure EMP.
Whoops. You're 100% correct.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 22:10   #55
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
...But Harpies are flak. Small and cheap, exactly what you want. I'm beginning to doubt whether you understand how EMP works.

That said, when your flak is better than the thing you're flakking, you should probably reconsider. Pure Harpies are always better against Co than Harpies with Phantoms, in any ratio. Better ERes against Beetles, better init against Vindicator. Against pure Cat I'd prefer the Vindicator (even better ERes, more damage), but beating both Co fleets with a single ship is worth losing a bit of efficiency vs. Cat.

(It is too bad you can't fake them, though.)
Does the fact phantoms can be faked outweigh what they lack in the flak department? Is Harpy truly viable in an alliance strat? Or do we just discount Terran because of Cats strength?
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 22:42   #56
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I only posted because I thought I saw a flaw in Patrikc's argument. I was wrong, but in any case, I never took a position on whether Co, Harpy or Phantom are good or bad. I haven't done the detailed stat analysis required to answer your question.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 22:47   #57
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Thumbs down Re: R74 shipstats choices

Also, even ignoring the Nightmare, Fr makes it hard to justify going Bs. Viper being quite efficient along with the Shadow being expensive (targeted less + higher relative armor) means it easily beats Bs, and with a short travel time to boot.

Things to consider, though they may be moot with the Nightmare around:
Decreasing cost of Shadow
Decrease efficiency of Viper (at the very least I'd do this)
Increase cost of Wyv/Marauder (with appropriate ERes increase)
Increase Damage of above two ships, perhaps at the cost of armor

I don't see Cr doing very well, however as Kaiba said it might be a 'dark horse', catching unprepared alliances off guard. Would be cool if Nightmare was init4 vs De, then you could team with Etd using Fi pods! Going a bit off course here though...

De's only chance is to team with *drums* Cat Co. Banshee+Spider or simply the Cutlass are easy covers with tt advantage.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 23:44   #58
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

So Cat Co round it is?
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 23:59   #59
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Also, even ignoring the Nightmare, Fr makes it hard to justify going Bs. Viper being quite efficient along with the Shadow being expensive (targeted less + higher relative armor) means it easily beats Bs, and with a short travel time to boot.

Things to consider, though they may be moot with the Nightmare around:
Decreasing cost of Shadow
Decrease efficiency of Viper (at the very least I'd do this)
Increase cost of Wyv/Marauder (with appropriate ERes increase)
Increase Damage of above two ships, perhaps at the cost of armor

I don't see Cr doing very well, however as Kaiba said it might be a 'dark horse', catching unprepared alliances off guard. Would be cool if Nightmare was init4 vs De, then you could team with Etd using Fi pods! Going a bit off course here though...

De's only chance is to team with *drums* Cat Co. Banshee+Spider or simply the Cutlass are easy covers with tt advantage.

Yeah I think on a large scale CR doesn't work out, but that 30 man ally that goes full CR is gonna be a pain in the twat.


Also no worries mz, it was just out of interest. I can't play PA with these stats so it won't affect my round.
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Unread 5 Oct 2017, 20:30   #60
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

My final review of the R74 stats is done. Hope i didn't miss anything.

The final set can be found here. It should be announced as final tomorrow aswell by appocomaster when he makes his round changes post.

There were a few more changes than I expected because of a new feature making its entrance in R74. This feature affected the shipstats. I tried to adjust the shipstats as best as possible to take this new feature into account. But since it's new i don't have any experience with it either. So let's hope i made the right choices.

My final advise is wait for the new feature to be announced before looking at the shipstats further because it will change your interpretation of them.

Hope you all have a fun round
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Unread 5 Oct 2017, 20:55   #61
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I think you should tell us about the new feature. Now we can't complain the set sucks.
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Unread 5 Oct 2017, 21:09   #62
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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I think you should tell us about the new feature. Now we can't complain the set sucks.
I'm aware

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Unread 5 Oct 2017, 21:24   #63
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Now we can't complain the set sucks.
oh no

oh

no
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 06:18   #64
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

A xan Fr with less armour and less damage than a xan Co, is there a mistake (ghost vs rev)?

Does the new feature have to do with the reflective technology ?
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 07:50   #65
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

That does seem like an awfully large Co.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 10:36   #66
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
A xan Fr with less armour and less damage than a xan Co, is there a mistake (ghost vs rev)?

Does the new feature have to do with the reflective technology ?
I do think this is a mistake. We will see the reflective ships, if approved, as soon as next round. It needs to be coded first. It's some other feature.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 11:58   #67
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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I do think this is a mistake. We will see the reflective ships, if approved, as soon as next round. It needs to be coded first. It's some other feature.
If you see reflective before round 80 I'll be surprised. It's not a simple inclusion. Need to work out they will work first

I imagine the new feature is PDS as its been asked for for ages
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 12:33   #68
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Yeah, basically any round before 80 would be a huge success. Not a coder, yet I can imagine this is not something simple to do.

Guess we will have to wait till tonight to learn about the new feature.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 14:09   #69
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

PDS as it has been used in PA is nothing more than unmovable ships. I doubt we will see them again in that form.
Maybe the return of some kind of priority attack... targets ships, or target roids, that would give extra kill power or roid capture.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 17:20   #70
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Reflective ships?
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 17:40   #71
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Looking very forward to the new race being introduced will make the game alot more interesting
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 18:22   #72
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
My final review of the R74 stats is done. Hope i didn't miss anything.

The final set can be found here. It should be announced as final tomorrow aswell by appocomaster when he makes his round changes post.

There were a few more changes than I expected because of a new feature making its entrance in R74. This feature affected the shipstats. I tried to adjust the shipstats as best as possible

To prevent anyone else from being surprised, the big changes are Lancer now being EMP at init 1, Beetle moved to init 2. I also believe Mantis was not init 3 before, Cath is now very weak to Cr.
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 18:26   #73
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Reflective ships?
Check the suggestion here: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201433
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Unread 6 Oct 2017, 22:21   #74
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Instead of spending time on discussing stats/changes, maybe someone should come up with a program/code that makes random stuff get implemented into stats or into the game.
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Unread 7 Oct 2017, 06:03   #75
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

They listened to you butcher
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