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View Poll Results: Which set should be run for R74
Balanced set (Speedgame server) 42 51.22%
More random set (Beta server) 34 41.46%
I vote blank 6 7.32%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 15:53   #1
Jintao
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R74 shipstats choices

A while ago we had a discussion thread were we discussed random vs balanced stats. I said i would be open to doing a random set since i've been pushing balanced set on the community for a while now.

Well 2 good finished sets were submitted. A half random-balanced set and what i call a balanced set. Now the community can pick which of the 2 finished sets will be run.

Choice 1: Balanced set
Choice 2: More random set
Choice 3: Blank (I'm good with either set being used or i don't want to vote)

Speedgame bcalc link
beta bcalc link

The poll will run untill an hour or 2 before signups open next friday. Whichever set has the most votes by than will be used for R74.

Happy voting and I hope the community enjoys whichever set it picks

Last edited by Jintao; 1 Oct 2017 at 16:07.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 16:08   #2
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Both are ST?
How is this gonna work with 120 man alliances, and 300 man blocks?
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 16:10   #3
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Both are ST?
How is this gonna work with 120 man alliances, and 300 man blocks?
Maybe you should have submitted some yourself, Captain Hindsight.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 16:13   #4
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Maybe you should have submitted some yourself, Captain Hindsight.
+1 this.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 16:47   #5
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I've voted for Random set because it looks more balanced
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 16:49   #6
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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I've voted for Random set because it looks more balanced
Love this logic!
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 17:46   #7
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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I've voted for Random set because it looks more balanced
Same here. Cath Co is still more than overpowered in the speedgame set.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 20:01   #8
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Think balanced stats are ok'ish. BUT...
Zik should have cr/bs steal and co/frig steal or something.
Etd are so alone in the uni with only race with cr roiders.
With zik chance for stealing other pods then "what they got from before" it will make it more intresting.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 20:04   #9
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

But i also like more random. More intresting..
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 20:14   #10
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Voted for random set after a quick glance.
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Unread 1 Oct 2017, 21:13   #11
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Blank. Don't have time to look at both sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Both are ST?
How is this gonna work with 120 man alliances, and 300 man blocks?
That is not how this works. If you're making a point, you're supposed to supply your own arguments. We're not going to come up with them for you.

(If you've made this point before, a link to that post would be fine too!)
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 10:01   #12
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Maybe you should have submitted some yourself, Captain Hindsight.
Ive submitted more sets than most others the past few years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That is not how this works. If you're making a point, you're supposed to supply your own arguments. We're not going to come up with them for you.
Im not making a point, im asking the mafia how ST sets gonna work in gang-land-planetarion.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 11:29   #13
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Im not making a point, im asking the mafia how ST sets gonna work in gang-land-planetarion.
Sorry

He means “what are your risks and concerns on ST in the current climate”

Be specific.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 13:36   #14
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Long time no see Veil!

Stats are literally like Cantonese to me, so I can't really offer constructive feedback.

I prefer the more random set. What I will say is that I like having multiple SK classes :-D, you know I love to SK people.

I also like differing slightly from the racial stereotypes. It's nice to have odd rounds with Xan having something other than FI DE etc. I like the idea of Etd CO and Cat DE. Both sets have some cool ship names and I like that they fit the themes. It always winds me up when there's something like 'War Frigate' for Ter when every other ship is a mythical creature's name.

I haven't had a chance to play with calcs, but I like that in the random set, Pegs are at a slight disadvantage against Xan FI this time and that Ter might need to rely more on Cat anti FI, unless Pegs are so strong that they wipe the floor with Xans even after shooting last, I'd have to play with calcs (might later in the week).

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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 14:18   #15
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Didn't you have a bug in the battle engine that occurred when ships were killing each other with the same init? If so, both these stat suggestions will hit the bug.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 14:22   #16
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I think the bug you're referring to occurs when ships steal back and forth at the same init. Kill and EMP are fine.

Veil's does have Buccaneer/Broker.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 14:34   #17
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

should be fine. only shows with steal ships that fire at the same target in the same init. Neither set have this issue
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 18:06   #18
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

The random set is no longer submitted for rd 74. The balanced set (though it might unbalance due to the mid vote changes) is the only one now in the race.

Thank you to those that voted
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 18:09   #19
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
The random set is no longer submitted for rd 74. The balanced set (though it might unbalance due to the mid vote changes) is the only one now in the race.

Thank you to those that voted
Why?
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 18:18   #20
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Why?
Why am I thanking those who voted? Because it's polite
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 18:25   #21
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Why am I thanking those who voted? Because it's polite
no why is it no longer submitted
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 19:53   #22
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
should be fine. only shows with steal ships that fire at the same target in the same init. Neither set have this issue
I could've sworn it occurred when ships steal each other at the same init, but this looks reasonable to me. Odd.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 19:55   #23
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I could've sworn it occurred when ships steal each other at the same init, but this looks reasonable to me. Odd.
The only issue i have ever known with 2 stealers stealing eachother at the same init is salvage abuse for the defender. But givin that it's 2 defensive ships, i don't see the harm in it.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 20:44   #24
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Note for the future: Don't do any polls if you don't intend to keep the voting fair. Thanks.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 20:48   #25
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Note for the future: Don't do any polls if you don't intend to keep the voting fair. Thanks.
Also, don't leave stats up to a vote.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 20:53   #26
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Also, don't leave stats up to a vote.
Agreed.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 20:55   #27
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

So lets just remove the vote and then edit the stats to ensure a fair balance.

Glad we're all agreed.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 21:04   #28
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

We already know you don't need the poll to be closed for that, but whatever makes you happy, Veil.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 22:20   #29
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Also, don't leave stats up to a vote.
Agreed, i personally thought this was a cop out.

We would actually be better with a team of 4-5 people with varying stat knowledge to pick them together after a discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
So lets just remove the vote and then edit the stats to ensure a fair balance.

Glad we're all agreed.
You are the only person with stats left for people to pick. You can edit them as much as you like. Not that an active poll stopped you anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Adapt
no why is it no longer submitted
Veil decided to start editing his stats after the poll was opened. I dont think its fair to change ints etc after you open the poll as a change you make could make completely redundant a reason that someone voted for them, and with no way to remove or change votes, on principal i pulled out.

Veil's stats (speedgame) will be the stats for Rd74.
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Unread 2 Oct 2017, 23:02   #30
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Veil decided to start editing his stats after the poll was opened. I dont think its fair to change ints etc after you open the poll as a change you make could make completely redundant a reason that someone voted for them, and with no way to remove or change votes, on principal i pulled out.

Veil's stats (speedgame) will be the stats for Rd74.
Listen babes, I didnt edit anything. Jin removed my access to speedgame before the poll even went up.

If anything, I am the architect who is forced out of his own creation.

I am the Nicholas Tesla of Planetarion. Oooo... R74 Ruler/Planet, here I come.
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 03:18   #31
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

I just find it silly that the problem with the stats that caused it to being pulled and being slighty reworked is what I complained about a week ago or so. Dorf raised the same issue as me as well.

Why even bother posting in the forum next time?

As Kaiba said just have a team for the next round, feedback seem ignored if your name isn't known, good or bad.
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 05:04   #32
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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i just find it silly that the problem with the stats that caused it to being pulled and being slighty reworked is what i complained about a week ago or so. Dorf raised the same issue as me as well.

Why even bother posting in the forum next time?

As kaiba said just have a team for the next round, feedback seem ignored if your name isn't known, good or bad.


+1
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 06:19   #33
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by ChroNOS View Post
I just find it silly that the problem with the stats that caused it to being pulled and being slighty reworked is what I complained about a week ago or so. Dorf raised the same issue as me as well.

Why even bother posting in the forum next time?

As Kaiba said just have a team for the next round, feedback seem ignored if your name isn't known, good or bad.
I would have Butcher on the team. Not because he has any ability to make stats but because he provides a different viewpoint and that is what is needed.

In case anyone gets me wrong Jintao is great at running the Stats dept. He really knows his stuff, what he needs though is people who play PA or don't want to be sheep to argue against the constant sterilisation and need to fit everything into set boxes.

For example I would love to know if the much heralded rd 50 mz stats fit into the efficiency macro that he uses. I remember the Pegasus was an insane ship that was stand alone but OP beyond belief. It was nerfed via it's inability to be used in an ally strat effectively rather than removing what made it great as a ship. I think more emphasis should be put into this way of deciding how viable a set is rather than via a macro. This is where a team of less analytical and more passionate people would be good to balance choices
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 16:49   #34
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I would have Butcher on the team. Not because he has any ability to make stats but because he provides a different viewpoint and that is what is needed.

In case anyone gets me wrong Jintao is great at running the Stats dept. He really knows his stuff, what he needs though is people who play PA or don't want to be sheep to argue against the constant sterilisation and need to fit everything into set boxes.

For example I would love to know if the much heralded rd 50 mz stats fit into the efficiency macro that he uses. I remember the Pegasus was an insane ship that was stand alone but OP beyond belief. It was nerfed via it's inability to be used in an ally strat effectively rather than removing what made it great as a ship. I think more emphasis should be put into this way of deciding how viable a set is rather than via a macro. This is where a team of less analytical and more passionate people would be good to balance choices
I agree, but a blend of third party stats people and players who have been playing for many rounds sounds like the best route to go. This would allow you to marry balance and depth.

I would only worry about stats influencing from the players that are currently playing and advising the third party stats people.

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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 17:12   #35
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Since kaiba withdrew his set (beta server), veil is the winner by default (speedgame set). So this set will be run for R74. Thank you all who took the time to vote.

Let's use the next 72 hours to go over the set and see if we have not missed anything that can create problems during the round.

2 issues/bugs have been pointed out to me which will be fixed before signups open on friday:

Guardian: Has 5 guns, a normal ship should only have 1
Cat co: It's too op since it's the only attack fleet which has no natural counter. Looking at how to do this with a minor tweak to the set

Feel free to share any other concerns you might have. Only minor changes to fix a serious problem will be considered! The rest will stay as is!
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 17:57   #36
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Moth init 1 and Flea init 2? Or does it make FR too good?
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 22:13   #37
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

looks like it is a fr/co round
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Unread 3 Oct 2017, 22:34   #38
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Moth init 1 and Flea init 2? Or does it make FR too good?
Power remains with Cath.

My recommendation to Jintao was to decrease the EMP eff slightly against both Xan and Zik.

Edit: probably Zik as Xan has capability to fake its way to coverage/lands
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 08:18   #39
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

My personal suggestion was to swap Tula to target DE as its current targeting is redundant and free up Spider to target Co t1. Then move back Beetle to t2 to try and allow Cat to contain itself and weaken it to DE at ally level.

From what I gather though Jintao prefers making Lancer an emp ship to combat Co. Not sure this will do much though.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 11:53   #40
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Or up the Lancer's E/R?
Make it a better ship vs Cath co and make it fun to def with them.

Spider hitting Cath co would be a similar option to init change between the cath co/fr. Only it changes a lot more to the shipstats.

But the problem with this set imo, is that only a few attacking classes have the EMP to make sure there's no easy counter vs them.
So a bit worried that most allies will end up going for Co and FR.

Fi gets stopped by Vinds
De gets stopped by Cutlass
CR gets stopped by Chimera
BS gets stopped by Nightmare
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 14:09   #41
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Or up the Lancer's E/R?
Make it a better ship vs Cath co and make it fun to def with them.

Spider hitting Cath co would be a similar option to init change between the cath co/fr. Only it changes a lot more to the shipstats.

But the problem with this set imo, is that only a few attacking classes have the EMP to make sure there's no easy counter vs them.
So a bit worried that most allies will end up going for Co and FR.

Fi gets stopped by Vinds
De gets stopped by Cutlass
CR gets stopped by Chimera
BS gets stopped by Nightmare
FR gets stopped by Viper
CO gets stopped by Harpy
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 14:19   #42
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Or up the Lancer's E/R?
Make it a better ship vs Cath co and make it fun to def with them.

Spider hitting Cath co would be a similar option to init change between the cath co/fr. Only it changes a lot more to the shipstats.

But the problem with this set imo, is that only a few attacking classes have the EMP to make sure there's no easy counter vs them.
So a bit worried that most allies will end up going for Co and FR.

Fi gets stopped by Vinds
De gets stopped by Cutlass
CR gets stopped by Chimera
BS gets stopped by Nightmare
Apart from adding an emp anti co to Cat my spider change wouldn't affect any other interactions in Jintaos matrix. And because it's emp it would still be classed as a land regardless.

I think the spider change atleast makes fi a bit more playable especially from a defensive standpoint. Atm as you say its only FR and Co that are worth playing. I think my change adds DE and Fi to the equation.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 14:19   #43
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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FR gets stopped by Viper
CO gets stopped by Harpy
Harpy will get owned so no.

Viper is not ally ETA so no.

Hence the problem
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 15:17   #44
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Harpy will get owned so no.

Viper is not ally ETA so no.

Hence the problem
How does Harpy get owned?

I mean Flea. Not Viper, my bad.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 15:53   #45
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

Harpy's low ERes will mean it's frozen first. Despite its higher initiative, Phantom will be the better anti Co against any teamed Co inc.

One of the things that could be done to mitigate CO's strength is overhaul the cost disparity between ships.

I've also said from the start Vindi should fire after Xan Fi. It doesn't change anything in terms of solo attacking, but it makes (Xan) Fi a lot less useless on attack.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 16:04   #46
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Harpy's low ERes will mean it's frozen first. Despite its higher initiative, Phantom will be the better anti Co against any teamed Co inc.
Hmm? Bcalc. Am I missing something?
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 16:30   #47
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Hmm? Bcalc. Am I missing something?
All these calcs really just show how bad etc co is. It really is Cat Co round. Gonna be very defensive as everyone's need will be to stop Cat.

I reckon Cr is a dark horse class
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 17:50   #48
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Or up the Lancer's E/R?
Make it a better ship vs Cath co and make it fun to def with them.

Spider hitting Cath co would be a similar option to init change between the cath co/fr. Only it changes a lot more to the shipstats.

But the problem with this set imo, is that only a few attacking classes have the EMP to make sure there's no easy counter vs them.
So a bit worried that most allies will end up going for Co and FR.

Fi gets stopped by Vinds
De gets stopped by Cutlass
CR gets stopped by Chimera
BS gets stopped by Nightmare
My suggestion for "fixing" the stats are...

nightmare init 7
dragon init 6
Phoenix init 9
Guardian init 1 emp around 140-150% eff
Priest init 2 emp around 140-150% eff
Vindicator changed to cloak for fun.

these changes would address the above and preventig a fr/co round.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 18:27   #49
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Hmm? Bcalc. Am I missing something?
Harpy isn't quite as bad as I thought with an even Cat:Etd ratio, however I imagine we'll see a fair bit more Cat than Etd.

In bigger battles where the Phantoms have flak, they perform better, and that's not mentioning you can't fake Harpy.
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Unread 4 Oct 2017, 19:08   #50
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Re: R74 shipstats choices

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In bigger battles where the Phantoms have flak, they perform better, and that's not mentioning you can't fake Harpy.
...But Harpies are flak. Small and cheap, exactly what you want. I'm beginning to doubt whether you understand how EMP works.

That said, when your flak is better than the thing you're flakking, you should probably reconsider. Pure Harpies are always better against Co than Harpies with Phantoms, in any ratio. Better ERes against Beetles, better init against Vindicator. Against pure Cat I'd prefer the Vindicator (even better ERes, more damage), but beating both Co fleets with a single ship is worth losing a bit of efficiency vs. Cat.

(It is too bad you can't fake them, though.)
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 4 Oct 2017 at 19:15.
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