Intended 'Features' for Round 10.5

[Ultimate Newbie]

g'day.

With R10.5 supposedly starting on the 15th of march, i was wondering what people's thoughts were to the new concepts that were outlined on the portal, and in Spinner's post in this thread: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=175506

For those too lazy to find them, here they are:

Originally posted on the Portal
- Combat altered to be closer to older PA-editions, one example being the return of Initiative.
- Pods are back. You can no longer steal roids without live "roid-stealing" ships, commonly referred to as "pods".
- EMP weapons are back, and available to Cathaar players in addition to their conventional
ships.
- Cloaked ships are back, available only to the Xandathrii players.
- Stealers are back, but with a twist, for Zikonian players only.
- Protection against Covert Operations is fully operational as in the Speedgames, through building Security Centers.
- Numerous statistical modifications.

Originally posted by Spinner
Ah, finally, the announcement went up, and I am allowed to speak (:

After the release of PaX (and in the beta), we were told that the combat was "insufficient" for sophisticated Planetarion players. We certainly didnt have time back then to turn around, and start doing combat from scratch, but it is something that I have thought lots about since then.
The last weeks, I have spent some time running the speedgames, but also some time trying to build a new combat system, based more upon old PA than the new, with some twists.
After PaX, I can imagine that many do not have faith in my ability to present a decent combat, and I might not blame you too much. I didnt know I could do it myself either.
Not until just some days ago, when I did my first tests of the new combat, inside a Planetarion ticker.
I have implemented the old stat known as "Initiative" again, people seemed to feel this was needed. I dont disagree. I have, however, improved the Initiative system from what it was before, so now ships can share initiative, they dont have to have their own. (i.e. 3 ships can have the same initiative, and thus fire simultanously)
I have given Zikonians a "steal-like" ability, but it is most definately not the same as before. A better term than Stealing, would be "borrowing", or "subverting".
Ziks no longer sacrifice their own ships in return for other ships, but now, their weapons "take control of" ships in the combat they are in, but when the combat is over, the ships still belong to their rightfull owners. Basically, the ships "subverted" this way, shoot at their own side in that fight.
Xandathrii will have their ships cloaked again too.

And, as many wanted, in stead of weird fleet priorities, there are distinct ships for distinct tasks again. Each race has their own Pod, capable of stealing roids, and each race have their own Structure-killer, only capable of planetary bombardment.

For those who wonder, there is no "splash-damage" or secondary Targets (t2), there is just 1 target class for each ship.
More combat "explanations" will be made available in a bit.

There are, as mentioned in the announcement, some other potential changes, but not ALL the details are completely worked out. Some are though, and some will be discussed oer the next days.

You will hear more about it soon

So, your thoughts on how Zik's EMP staling will be implemented, how effective it should be and strategies on how to use them would be the most interesting aspect in my opinion, though T1 only for ships could have serious ramifications. Multiple initiative and structure killing ships (siege ships?) are of less importance as their effect will only be minimal i reckon...

[furball]

I'M BAAAAAAAAAACK!!!

I'll miss fleet priorities, and the Zik's 'subverting' thing sounds a bit weird. I'd also like to know how many classes there'll be, as well as whether or not we'll see the stats.


furball.

[Tactitus]

I also think Fleet Missions had promise. It was a valid way to avoid the calc-everything-out-in-advance problem that made PA combat rather too predictable.

The Zik 'subverting' capability seems like it could be very powerful. Not as powerful as R2 stealing, but clearly more powerful than either EMP or resource/armor-equivalency stealing.

Having only one targeting class is another strange wrinkle. I've always been an advocate of minimalist fleet compositions and those who could utilize ships to do double- or even triple-duty were rewarded accordingly.

[Chika]

i don't really like the idea of the zik not being able to steal, but borrow. I mean, it probably COULD work out, but given the amount of great ideas that PAX had, and how bad they were implemented, I don't have faith in this idea either. But as i implied, if implemented correctly it could be pretty cool.

[dabult]

Woho this board is being used again \o/



S'ry just had to post

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

g'day.

So, your thoughts on how Zik's EMP staling will be implemented, how effective it should be and strategies on how to use them would be the most interesting aspect in my opinion, though T1 only for ships could have serious ramifications. Multiple initiative and structure killing ships (siege ships?) are of less importance as their effect will only be minimal i reckon...

I'd rather see zik steal EMP ships from cathaar planets to be honest

And I don't really see the advantage of "borrowing" ships. I suppose they should have low init, else they dont serve any purpose ofc.

Lets say 1000 EMP-steal ships "borrow" 800 equal-sized ships of your target. Those 800 are common killships and kill another 200 equalsized ships. That would be a whole lot more efficient than having 1000 normal ships killing 250 equalsized ships. There is a lot of potential in the idea, but I don't see the advantages of building Psi-emp ships over going cathaar and building "the real thing" (that is IF cathaar can build some decent killships themselves ofc), since normal EMP ships should be more powerfull than the psi-emp ships.

So if 1000 EMP ships "freeze" 100 equalsized ships, I think 1000 psi-emp ships should borrow less than the 800 (effectively crippling 1000 ships) I meantioned above.

Also you have to consider cap. If you "borrow" too many ships, your cap will probably drop like a stone. You don't have that disatvantage with classic EMP ships. Though that can be solved by calcing roidcap without the borrowed ships, though I don't think that should be the way....

Anyways, I think the idea has lots of potential, but balancing it's power will be hard. Too good will rule out EMP, too weak will make no impact. and without more detailed info we can't say anything about that ofc....

[Tactitus]

Originally Posted by General Martok

And I don't really see the advantage of "borrowing" ships. I suppose they should have low init, else they dont serve any purpose ofc.

Of course.

Also you have to consider cap. If you "borrow" too many ships, your cap will probably drop like a stone.

Obviously, that would depend against whose account the borrowed ships are counted. Since they are in fact borrowed, then a case could be made for it going either way. One could even imagine a scenario where borrowed ships aren't counted for/against either side.

You don't have that disatvantage with classic EMP ships. Though that can be solved by calcing roidcap without the borrowed ships, though I don't think that should be the way...

Why not?

Anyways, I think the idea has lots of potential, but balancing it's power will be hard. Too good will rule out EMP, too weak will make no impact. and without more detailed info we can't say anything about that ofc....

Aye.

[Andy_r]

the Zik idea seems to be much stronger for attack than defence. As long as you attack ziks with a fleet composed of ships that don't target themselves or each other, borrowing will do no damage.

As with all combat and stat related things, it's all a question of balance - as long as no one race is clearly better or worse than the others, then the actual mechanics of combat don't really affect things.

What I would really like to see is a strong differentiation between races, and each race being especially good against one other, bad against one other, and weel suited to teaming up with one other. How this is achieved doesn't really matter as long as it's there.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by General Martok

Lets say 1000 EMP-steal ships "borrow" 800 equal-sized ships of your target. Those 800 are common killships and kill another 200 equalsized ships. That would be a whole lot more efficient than having 1000 normal ships killing 250 equalsized ships. There is a lot of potential in the idea, but I don't see the advantages of building Psi-emp ships over going cathaar and building "the real thing" (that is IF cathaar can build some decent killships themselves ofc), since normal EMP ships should be more powerfull than the psi-emp ships.

Well yes, but i dont actually see the use of Psi EMP being offensively biased - ie, its major positive is in defence.

Confused? i'll explain.

with your 1000 PsiEMP ships, as per the above example, converting 800 equal sized ships which then go on to kill 200 enemy ships looks inefficient when compared to killing 250 outright. And it is inefficient - but think for a moment. The defenders have an additional 800 targets to fire upon (assuming same class etc), thus substantially boosting your effective armour and drastically reducing your losses (by about half). Furthermore, defenders are in a bit of a bother, as killing the attacker (the Psi EMP planet) outright would also screw the person you are trying to help, as their units would also be killed.


Concerns about balancing this race are well founded i reckon. In my stats, i made Psi EMP units about half as effective as Cathaar EMP, as highlighted above Psi EMP has roughly twice the armour . Though it was always my intention to beta test the stats first so some tweaking could be done to balance the stats (as it should be, heh).

Chika: Why dont you like the idea of borrowing ships over stealing them? tbh, i'd rather have 2x the captured units when i really need them (ie in a battle), rather than having a motely collection of random cappings 9that cost some of my own ship's to get) lying around home all the time...

And as with others above, i have to agree that fleet priorities were a good idea. Whenever i was attacked, i never knew what priorities my attacker used. This made me feel far more vulnerable than usual - which (although i hated it at the time ) is a good thing for the game .

[Chika]

QUOTE=Ultimate Newbie

Chika: Why dont you like the idea of borrowing ships over stealing them? tbh, i'd rather have 2x the captured units when i really need them (ie in a battle), rather than having a motely collection of random cappings 9that cost some of my own ship's to get) lying around home all the time...

Originally Posted by Chika

i don't really like the idea of the zik not being able to steal, but borrow. I mean, it probably COULD work out, but given the amount of great ideas that PAX had, and how bad they were implemented, I don't have faith in this idea either. But as i implied, if implemented correctly it could be pretty cool.

Well, for the most part I answered this question. The idea is great, but how well will the creators work it into the game?

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Chika

Well, for the most part I answered this question. The idea is great, but how well will the creators work it into the game?

Ah i see. I thought you didnt like the concept in addition to not being able to trust Spinner to make it work out properly.

For most in the strategy forum, the latter is a given

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Ah i see. I thought you didnt like the concept in addition to not being able to trust Spinner to make it work out properly.

For most in the strategy forum, the latter is a given

lol. True. Though someone has to say it every now and then.
But you are right, I would rather KEEP my ships rather than lose them. This in a sense makes the Ziks stronger in a way. But if they still have those High initiatives it could really be bad.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Chika

lol. True. Though someone has to say it every now and then.
But you are right, I would rather KEEP my ships rather than lose them. This in a sense makes the Ziks stronger in a way. But if they still have those High initiatives it could really be bad.

heh.

Well, because Spinner seems to have taken the idea from me. Thus you can go to http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production48.html to see how i intergrated the concept into a set of stats. As you can see, EMP doesnt have late initiatves...

[Spinner]

There is a fair bit of confusion and assumptions here, as can be expected.
I dont know where the term Psi-EMP came from, certainly not from me.
It is, however, always nice to see the faith you have in me
Isn't it slightly arrogant of you though, to assume that two weeks worth of combat-testing will not highlight such issues as "early initiative" etc? Of course it is bleeding evident that Ziks will now have to have a VERY early initiative, very probablyearlier or as early as Cathaar Emp ships?

Tell you what, don't have faith. Join the beta in stead.
How to do so will be posted tonight after PaTeam has reviewed the beta-schedule.

[Spinner]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

heh.

Well, because Spinner seems to have taken the idea from me. Thus you can go to http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production48.html to see how i intergrated the concept into a set of stats. As you can see, EMP doesnt have late initiatves...

Yes, I hear you claim "ownership" of this idea.
Think what you like, I have recieved shipstats and ideas from you for just about every round since r4 or thereabout, and it never came to a fruitfull conversation. For that, I can only apologize, but I swear, I did not steal this idea from you. The Zikonian Stealing ability was discussed internally by Vish, Fudge and I the first time the Ziks were made, and this implenetation was actually the result of me finding some notes from the old days, and the desire to make a little twist.

[Spinner]

After having read your stats in yoru link, I see your "psi-emp" ships (assuming that is "borrowers") shoot after EMP ship, so they are useless against 5 out of 6 Cathaar EMP ships. I thought you said they needed early initiative ? (-:

[Spinner]

Oh, and incase you didnt realise, your poll is insanely biased (-:

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

heh.

Well, because Spinner seems to have taken the idea from me. Thus you can go to http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production48.html to see how i intergrated the concept into a set of stats. As you can see, EMP doesnt have late initiatves...

Interesting stats. I know this is rough draft, but initiatives such as for this kill ship for zik is way to high .
Hawk CO CO FR All 54 Medium High 1750 500 2250 3 Normal

But with a few tweaks that chart could definitly be a start.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Spinner

There is a fair bit of confusion and assumptions here, as can be expected.
I dont know where the term Psi-EMP came from, certainly not from me.
It is, however, always nice to see the faith you have in me
Isn't it slightly arrogant of you though, to assume that two weeks worth of combat-testing will not highlight such issues as "early initiative" etc? Of course it is bleeding evident that Ziks will now have to have a VERY early initiative, very probablyearlier or as early as Cathaar Emp ships?

Tell you what, don't have faith. Join the beta in stead.
How to do so will be posted tonight after PaTeam has reviewed the beta-schedule.

There is faith sir. We are patiently waiting. I take most of these talks as idea dumping. Some of the issues stated here sort of address certain issues before they even come about. Early initiative for the "Psi-EMP" ships (heh) rocks!!

[Spinner]

We'll have a start tonight, allthough not based on UN's stats this time either.
I have asked a few selected veterans to assist me with stats, people from high places in alliances with long track records.
All stats will be publically viewable in the beta and in the real game.

[Spinner]

Originally Posted by Chika

There is faith sir. We are patiently waiting. I take most of these talks as idea dumping. Some of the issues stated here sort of address certain issues before they even come about. Early initiative for the "Psi-EMP" ships (heh) rocks!!

Thank you Chika. Lets just make sure they do not rock too much (:

[General Martok]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

heh.

Well, because Spinner seems to have taken the idea from me. Thus you can go to http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production48.html to see how i intergrated the concept into a set of stats. As you can see, EMP doesnt have late initiatves...

Will keep it short since I'm kinda lacking sleep atm, will add/edit post tomorrow.

I've played Zikonian for 2 rounds (7 and 9.5 I think), and STEALING the ships was the sole reason I chose the race. Ofc, cutter/clipper is cewl, but a lot of people just wanted to play the race because it's cewl to steal ships and make a great clipper/rgoue/pegasus fleet for instance. I'd be a shame if that would be gone, it's replacement should have serious benefits over the old zikonian, else we'll get the "get the r6-9 zik stealships back" instead of "get the r2 thieves back" threads all over the forums.

At the moment I don't see a single reason to choose the psi-emp ships over the normal EMP ships. EMP (should) freeze a lot more ships, so psi-emp is less efficient, and there are no remaining benefits after the battle, no stolen ships to polish in base fleet.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Well yes, but i dont actually see the use of Psi EMP being offensively biased - ie, its major positive is in defence.

Confused? i'll explain.

with your 1000 PsiEMP ships, as per the above example, converting 800 equal sized ships which then go on to kill 200 enemy ships looks inefficient when compared to killing 250 outright. And it is inefficient - but think for a moment. The defenders have an additional 800 targets to fire upon (assuming same class etc), thus substantially boosting your effective armour and drastically reducing your losses (by about half). Furthermore, defenders are in a bit of a bother, as killing the attacker (the Psi EMP planet) outright would also screw the person you are trying to help, as their units would also be killed.

Obviously no player will send in ships targetting itself, attacking an zikonian. that would be plain stupid, unless he sends in so much the target runs or dies. So: no armour boost for defenders (hijacked ships dont get targetted by attacker), no extra losses for attacker (attacker wont fire at his own ships). Defending will indeed be a tough issue, but that's something that can be worked out I suppose.

So can you please explain me why I should take psi-emp over EMP? I'd rather have 1000 ships freezing 1600 enemy ships (2x 800, as you proposed psi-emp 50% the strength of emp) over hijacking 800 and killing 200. You'd need more psi-emp ships to disable an oppenent, lowering cap, or take losses, and still not killing much of your enemy.


Now some offtopic thingies:

Sovereign can I plz shoot you for bringing in PDS at the lowest initiatives? Thank you ffs. And Spinner how about making 1 post instead of 4 in line?
Hmm post became longer than I thougzzzzz

edit: haven't voted yet. want to know a bit more first (and no I'm not voting the 2nd option, I don't like the negative tone of it )

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Spinner

Isn't it slightly arrogant of you though, to assume that two weeks worth of combat-testing will not highlight such issues as "early initiative" etc? Of course it is bleeding evident that Ziks will now have to have a VERY early initiative, very probablyearlier or as early as Cathaar Emp ships?

I apologise, i dont seem to remember saying that two weeks of combat testing wont show major deficiences. In the past, i have commented on the ability of some to correct those problems, but i have not said that since R10's beta.

Originally Posted by Spinner

The Zikonian Stealing ability was discussed internally by Vish, Fudge and I the first time the Ziks were made, and this implenetation was actually the result of me finding some notes from the old days, and the desire to make a little twist.

Perhaps, but i find it very interesting how similar the two (supposedly seperate) ideas are. And this idea has been around for a while...

Originally Posted by Spinner

After having read your stats in yoru link, I see your "psi-emp" ships (assuming that is "borrowers") shoot after EMP ship, so they are useless against 5 out of 6 Cathaar EMP ships. I thought you said they needed early initiative ? (-:

They can still be fired upon by EMP ships - thus being used as EMP flak. Furthermore, there are precedents for EMP ships firing upon other ships that have already fired. BW firing on Scarabs springs to mind right away...

I would like to point out that Production48.html isn’t the latest version of the stats that I have – its just the only one I have uploaded at the moment and it demonstrates how I integrated Psi EMP into a working model. Martok, you’ll be relieved to hear that the current version (Production52) does not have PDS . It was just a flirt with a flame long gone…

Besides, if you have Psi EMP firing before EMP, then you make the EMP ships (Cathaar’s only strength) next to useless when opposing them. So, you have to make a choice between the two – do you let the Cathaar fire before the Zikonians? In my set of stats, I chose to. However, in round 12, it could just as easily be reversed. Besides, the Vultures (Psi EMP Cruisers) in particular are hard enough to stop already, even without an Initiative of 1.

In Production52.html (which I shall endeavour to upload shortly), initiatives have been revised to address the perceived ‘problem’ with Psi EMP firing too late. As it stands, Ravens can convert all Fighters (except Cath), all Corvettes (except itself) and all Frigates, whilst only Cathaar Recluses and Cathaar Spiders can prevent it from firing. The Vulture can convert all Frigates and Cruisers, and all Destroyers except Cathaar’s, whilst only Tarantulas can prevent it from firing. Other Psi EMP ships are of less importance and thus you can find out what they can and cant convert by looking at http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production52.html.

And, coincidently to try and fit in with Spinner's "all classes in each race firing at the same time thingy", the Hawk now has an uber (dare i say too uber?) Initiative - and so i have reduce its weaponpower substantially so it doesnt become the next Sentinel - we've all been there before, havent we?

[MAdnRisKy]

GM that assumption that someone would be able to send in ships completely untargetted by the ziks kill ships AND not be in conflict with each other in terms of avoiding borrowing ships, AND flak pods would assume there is going to be a LOT of ships to choose from wouldn't it?

Otherwise that point is somewhat accademic. You ALWAYS compose a fleet that is anti your target, what it usually isn't is anti the defence. Whilst your point presents a better glimpse of a bigger picture it is hardly a complete one now is it?

(God I missed this place)

Lo Spinner, seems like you did too then heh

MAd

[MOS]

Dont have alot of time atm so just had a quick read.

The new zik sound pretty cool to me. One problem with the Zik before i felt was always having to replace your stealing ships and never really being able to steal a significantly useful fleet. This always left you with a bitsy fleet combination. This new system would avoid that with out removing the difficulty zik players like of coordinating stolen/borowed ships in combat.

[Legator]

well, what can i say ? i want the old way of the ships back anyways ....and this kind of "stealing and losing after battle" sounds a bit to weird to me :/

[at0mic.c0w]

Originally Posted by MOS

One problem with the Zik before i felt was always having to replace your stealing ships and never really being able to steal a significantly useful fleet. This always left you with a bitsy fleet combination.

that's absolutely not true. of course u end up with a few ships of every kind if u build every possible stealing ship and attack/defend against any fleet u may come across.

i played them in r9 and r9.5 - once on the winning side and once on the losing side so don't tell me i had an easy time selecting my targets/who i defend against. the only stealing ship i built was the Rogue and both rounds i ended up with a nice amount of pegs/dems.

The Zikonian borrow thing.... uhh no..
The stealing was the point of the race, when ya have a stash of sumone elses goods it's like "war trophies" and as a zikonian feelin' that is why ya play the race $$

Cloak and Emp loved those be nice to see'm

1 target? specific fleets is what makes it fun having 1k of every ship is boring, having 10k in 4 ships is outstanding or attacking with flack only against an illiterate PA player pods/flack and having the flack own them is.. *dr. evils lil' pink to the mouth*

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Tobeh

1 target? specific fleets is what makes it fun having 1k of every ship is boring, having 10k in 4 ships is outstanding or attacking with flack only against an illiterate PA player pods/flack and having the flack own them is.. *dr. evils lil' pink to the mouth*

I tend to agree there. I would like to see the 6 (or more) classes of ships (FI, CO, FR, DE,CR,BA) to return, combined with 2 targets. In this manner you need at least 3 ships to target all classes and a pod – though its likely that you’ll need more than that to target all classes efficiently. Also, more classes (why not have 10? ) leads to greater diversity in fleet composition and thus more (strategically) interesting.

I’ll volunteer to make a set of stats with 10 classes if someone (particularly Spinner) is interested in pursuing the concept.

[Zotnam]

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

GM that assumption that someone would be able to send in ships completely untargetted by the ziks kill ships AND not be in conflict with each other in terms of avoiding borrowing ships, AND flak pods would assume there is going to be a LOT of ships to choose from wouldn't it?

Otherwise that point is somewhat accademic. You ALWAYS compose a fleet that is anti your target, what it usually isn't is anti the defence. Whilst your point presents a better glimpse of a bigger picture it is hardly a complete one now is it?

(God I missed this place)

Lo Spinner, seems like you did too then heh

MAd

heh, you need to wake up MAd zik have one ship targetting fi, ONE! and that is a fi. Being xan and sending sirtalis (anti fi fighter) would be the MOST STUPID THING EVER! Send in vipers and elaphes as flack and hey.. ships subbed dont shoot at you = free roids

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I’ll volunteer to make a set of stats with 10 classes if someone (particularly Spinner) is interested in pursuing the concept.

EEk! Quoting self!

Well, i turned around and did it anyway. You can see the 10 class stats at: http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/Production60.html

There is also a quick little summary of the races at http://home.iprimus.com.au/rourkek/RaceFleet60.html

Ignore at will