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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 18:31   #51
Cowch
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Re: Round 36

It would be a very offensive round, and politics would be much more interesting than: "Hey, let's all block up against App/Asc and crash!"

I would be concerned about people creating fortresses out of random galaxies and having the advantage of oog def, but without a buddy pack core it would be hard and with the top players flocking to private gals, the tags would be weak.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:01   #52
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Guys, trust me on this, most of the top players will go for the private gals and attempt to win anyways. You don't want to make them massively smaller than the random gals as then that'll be nigh on impossible but it's the challenge that most people in ascendancy/apprime are looking for at this time. For at least one round they'll risk it, so just don't make private gals too strong heh. Private gals will have a difficult time defending themselves yeah but they'll still be tough eggs to crack with 12 active planets with good value. Not to mention then can align themselves with other private gals or alliances in various ways.
I dont understand it though? if its a privgal of 8-10 people with no randoms and cant get out of galaxy defence? then any alliance/block can roid the galaxy down to nothing with sheer numbers? which they can easily do with an alliance tag of 50?

Also, if alliances cant defend private galaxys? then it would mean every alliance would force its members to go random, except for maybe Asc

I just dont understand it at all, join a galaxy with 8-9 people of your choice and only get defence from those 8-9 people? or go random and be part of a 50+ alliance able to offer decent/good defence anyway + your random galaxy defence.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:09   #53
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Also, if alliances cant defend private galaxys? then it would mean every alliance would force its members to go random
It appears to me that you don't quite comprehend Rob's suggestion.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:25   #54
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Re: Round 36

Heck, get rid of galaxies alltogether.
If you dare.

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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:28   #55
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Re: Round 36

remember it's light mz she will probably get it when the thread reaches page 5
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:28   #56
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Heck, get rid of galaxies alltogether.
If you dare.

Proposed this a couple of times already, apparently it is too much of an alien for most people.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:43   #57
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Proposed this a couple of times already, apparently it is too much of an alien for most people.
yeah i just went back and read all that for nostalgia.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 19:45   #58
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Re: Round 36

I think gal size would have to be tied to alliance size. If alliances are limited to 50 tagged member for a def pool, then private gals would have to have 15 or so members. And, galaxies would have to be more creative about what constitutes defense; retals, FCs and strategic naps. Also, when I have uncovered waves, I reach for a cold beer and a nice pipe and I watch some tv.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 20:02   #59
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Heck, get rid of galaxies alltogether.
If you dare.

Galaxies, as in a sense of geography, were one of your better ideas! You remember the better ideas right, the ones you had originally and then abandoned completely for pax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
I dont understand it though? if its a privgal of 8-10 people with no randoms and cant get out of galaxy defence? then any alliance/block can roid the galaxy down to nothing with sheer numbers? which they can easily do with an alliance tag of 50?

Also, if alliances cant defend private galaxys? then it would mean every alliance would force its members to go random, except for maybe Asc

I just dont understand it at all, join a galaxy with 8-9 people of your choice and only get defence from those 8-9 people? or go random and be part of a 50+ alliance able to offer decent/good defence anyway + your random galaxy defence.
If the entire universe feels the need to block against a bunch of these types of private gals it'd probably be hilarious enough to be totally worth it. Any single alliance will have to decide what it wants to do though. Does it want to compete with the other alliances? Does it want to surrender the top spot? Does it want to kill a particular private galaxy? Is the effort involved in doing so worth it? If alliances try to force their members not to join private galaxies will the members listen to them? I'm telling you right now I'll do it. If that ends up with just me and 10 guys I'm friends with getting shitted on fair enough. If that happens to tons of people fair enough. They'll still have made the ****ing choice themselves and they can all live with it.

And yes as Cowch says this is likely to throw more variables onto the political field. Private gals will be, akin to how bgs were for a few rounds, assets which can either be used by an alliance or use the alliance themselves.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 20:09   #60
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Re: Round 36

what about alliance based private galaxies?

with a tag limit of 50 (lol 50) we could give alliances the option to be private or public.

private alliances:
- 10 (?) members per galaxy with up to 3 being a "bp"
- remainder of galaxy slots filled randomly from ally
- able to defend within galaxy tag
- could group alliance galaxies based on clusters (i.e. ND gets all galaxies in c5)

public alliances:
- bp up to 5 members (from any other public alliance)
- rest of galaxy members are random
- randomly placed within clusters
- current defense rules

granted, this would require alliances to tag up pre-shuffle for it to work, and planets kicked/joining alliances would have to be moved if that alliance is set private.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 21:04   #61
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
what about alliance based private galaxies?

with a tag limit of 50 (lol 50) we could give alliances the option to be private or public.
Is this really a change from the current system? All it would do is make it so App/Asc are in their fortress gals from the start of the round.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 22:27   #62
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Re: Round 36

Well ... we had to coordinate exile/kicking times.
And we managed to get people from alliance, but randomly, and having to pay for the exiles.
This way, it would become much cheaper to do that.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 22:40   #63
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Re: Round 36

people are going to fort if they want to. the only thing these smaller bp's, limited exiles, and such hurt are the people who end up in bad galaxies or semi-active ones. why does it matter if you make it easier for people that choose to play that way when they will do it anyway? it also makes it easier to identify those people, and you can choose how to combat it instead of ending in some shit inactive galaxy or in a galaxy with nothing but App that choose to serve you on a platter to be roided if your alliance ends up on the wrong side of some "block".

edit: and don't forget that other alliances also created multi member galaxies this round (euph, ct, nd, oddr, etc) that were painful to attack into
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 23:07   #64
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
edit: and don't forget that other alliances also created multi member galaxies this round (euph, ct, nd, oddr, etc) that were painful to attack into
For the record CT did not create fortress galaxies this round, it actually happened purely by accident (at least in my case). We got 6 CTers purely at random....

I actually would not be apposed to Zaejii's idea about explicitly allowing fortress galaxies with some limitations. It would at least recognize the reality that certain members of the player base are going to do whatever they can to try and play together, so unless we explicitly prohibit it through not allowing exiles, why not simply allow it? Zaejii's suggestion is interesting, it's the first one suggested here that I really feel might make sense pending modification to make it balanced.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 23:17   #65
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Re: Round 36

Agreed. The way forward is allowing people to play as they wish, not to make it ever harder until all of the fun has been sucked out of the game.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 23:41   #66
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Re: Round 36

I support fortress galaxies of any type, but I think it would be more interesting to play a round with untagged fortresses as we were discussing earlier in the thread.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 23:46   #67
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowch View Post
I support fortress galaxies of any type, but I think it would be more interesting to play a round with untagged fortresses as we were discussing earlier in the thread.
those aren't forts, those would be private lolfence galaxies that nobody will ever attack due to ally distribution - which is quite different. fences have more overall fleets (each alliance + in gal) and are generally harder to attack, where as forts pull from the same ally pool and have in gal fleets. also keep in mind that while a 5+ ally block might target a fort galaxy, only the alliances (usually 2-3) not in the block will be attacking the fenced one.
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Unread 25 Feb 2010, 23:58   #68
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Re: Round 36

If the private gal members are untagged, why would it be a lolfence? I presume people would compete for top gal at that point. Having untagged members in a private gal wouldn't really do a tag any good from a score standpoint.

Edit: I can envision various scenarios: One where tags pick a gal to be their "flagship" and a tag and that gal work together for top gal rating. Another where gals compete for top gal and tags compete for top tag and the work together only transiently. But in either scenario, I don't see the advantage of lolfencing...

Last edited by Cowch; 26 Feb 2010 at 00:13.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 02:11   #69
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Galaxies, as in a sense of geography, were one of your better ideas! You remember the better ideas right, the ones you had originally and then abandoned completely for pax
Yeah, you are of course correct, had I not dared to change the path PA was heading at the time, everything would have been much better.
No, I'm afraid the damage had already been done, and PAX was where the rescue-operation started. It probably failed. Then again, there are at least a couple of thousand players playing it, and it has survived for 10 years.
Early in round 3, we were "slashdotted" if that word still rings a bell to some in the community, and thats when it all exploded in terms of players. Back then, that was advertisement such as no money could buy. We were overwhelmed with players, for a while. And then the bubble burst and it was downhill from there. Then jolt bought it, and the PA paid staff went from 5 fulltime employees to just me, working to save Planetarion for 1000 £ a month, fulltime.
That's before taxes ofc.

"Old-school" Planetarion would have died instantly with a small player-base, leaving 90% of players with nothing to do every round. Covert-Ops didn't even exist, and there was pretty much no ingame alliance functionality.

What I meant by "removing galaxies" is not to simply to "remove the galaxy" but to change the focus. It's not players who win a round. It's not galaxies winning a round. It is the alliance. This is why the game should be centered around the alliances in stead. The alliances are already responsible for pretty much all recruitment of new players to the game, and there should be in-game mechanics to support this.

The core concept of Planetarion has weaknesses on a fundamental level as a multi-player game. It can only work well when there is a stream of new players joining, constantly. For 4 rounds, this worked out perfectly.
You see, it wasn't just the it-bubble bursting at the time, which made us lose out of money from companies who went belly-up, it was the lack of new players that exposed the problem. And without a steady stream of new players, the feeding-grounds dried up, so to speak, and PA divided into two groups only: Those feeding and those being fed upon. There was no-one below to keep the middle of the food-chain fed.
PAX made a bold attempt of giving the knocked-out players a way of fighting back, a way to organize themselves, introducing them to alliances inside the game, giving them covert-ops to play with under the idea that 1000 small bees can inflict pain on a big bear. Combat was altered according to similar ideas. However, with the current business model at the time, and little backing from new owners, new players went elsewhere, and the internet moved on, leaving PA as an ancient artifact with a memory of old times in great glory. In retrospect, the game was flawed seriously from day 1. That responsibility and fault is mine, and mine alone.

In recent times, PA has suffered blow after blow by not being prioritized by its owners. It has been milked and drained since it was sold the first time, and I am saddened to see it is still happening.

I wish I could say I had learned what we did right with Planetarion. The truth is, I think I have learned much more of what we did wrong. And it was a lot. Mocking me for changes to PAX only reveals that you are missing out on the big picture, as you should be mocking me for what was wrong to begin with, even if the symptoms were hidden by events outside of our control.

Now I am going to sign up for a crash-course in writing shorter posts, like my previous one in this thread.

Keep your galaxies, JonnyBGood, I didn't mean it like you thought I did. I guess PA will stick around for a while longer, it's a hard nut to crack.
Not a flawless concept, but it certainly has some staying-power
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 04:21   #70
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Re: Round 36

If we Did 10 man private Gals with them forming there own Tag and not being able to get OOG def.
And having the rest of the universe being in 14-16man gals with 5 man bp's. Then it will create a whole new element to the game.
With reduced Tag sizes it will force people to decide, compete for ally win or go for gal win.

It would create 2 races. Yet one couldnt exsist with out the other the BG gals would have to work with the Ally's to avoid the TOTAL rapage they would incure if the were attacked.

So the problem would be create a set of stats that would support this drastic change to things. And we'd also have to wait for the PA team to code it up. Although it shouldnt be that hard just put an option to chose public or private gals.

However we wont know anything until the PA team thinks about it...(4weeks later)

For once i think JBG is right this would be a good turn of events for the game, as he said most of the good players will private gal and the average to low-end players will stay in the allys being lead by 4-5 good players. So it will be a more or less balanced world.

Competition would be more or less fair for at least 1 round.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 05:22   #71
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
And having the rest of the universe being in 14-16man gals with 5 man bp's.
5 man BPs = 14 man fortress gals with oog def bashing 10 man private gals with no oog def. At least make it take longer to set up a traditional fortress galaxy.

I still think private gals and normal gals should be the same size. 50 man alliance tags and 12-15 man galaxies, whether private or public. If we must have BPs, make them 3 people. But, that's if I were king of the world...
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 09:25   #72
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowch View Post
If the private gal members are untagged, why would it be a lolfence? I presume people would compete for top gal at that point. Having untagged members in a private gal wouldn't really do a tag any good from a score standpoint.
You can be a member of an alliance and not be in tag.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 11:04   #73
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Yeah, you are of course correct, had I not dared to change the path PA was heading at the time, everything would have been much better.
Well, that was certainly a fantastically over-the-top strawman. You'd almost have thought I'd hit a sore spot

Also what the **** no alliance has ever gone out and recruited new players en masse to the game. People go out and tell their friends it's a cool game and they play it and decide whether it's shit or not and then join an alliance. Why? Because there's a retarded alliance limit in place that makes every spot in your tag significant so giving them to people who might not be active is a bad idea. How on earth did you think creating formal alliances made newbies more likely to join them anyways? If you logged into pa more than once a week you were aware of alliances and that having one was better than not. If you didn't login that often you weren't going to do anything anyways.

Pax (as in the r10/10.5 game) was ****ing dire. Maybe some of the concepts were good but the implementation was so laughably poor the formulae for how things worked had to be changed midround. It was a war game. War games are supposed to be brutal, harsh and unforgiving. They're not supposed to be about exploiting formulae. I have no idea what changed for you between r1 and r10 but pa somehow went from being a war game to being, well, what the hell is it?

PA wasn't perfect, in fact it was a long way from that, but it was ****ing cool for a while. It needed graphics. It needed things to do in between ticks if you had some spare time. It needed shiny surface features which everyone instantly understood. It didn't need covert-ops, an xp formula, ship stats which rewarded the hardcore players (remember how people worked the real stats out retroactively?) and formalised limited alliances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eltsin
You can be a member of an alliance and not be in tag.
Make each private galaxy it's own alliance tag automatically.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 12:45   #74
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Re: Round 36

Obviously, we do not communicate on the same wavelength, JonnyBGood. The fact that you do not understand why radical changes were needed in the tenth round leaves us with too little common ground. You did not understand my point, and it seems some of my arguments were misunderstood as well. No worries, it isn't important, and nor am I. It is not like anything major will happen to Planetarion in the foreseeable future anyway, so suggesting "radical" changes is somewhat pointless.

I apologize for wasting your time in this thread, I'll shut up now (-:
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 13:02   #75
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Re: Round 36

This is a facinating thread and I apologise that I can't respond having read it all properly. However, over the next few days we'll make some announcements relevant to what has been discussed here, for this round and for next round (yes, we can forward plan sometimes )
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 13:07   #76
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Obviously, we do not communicate on the same wavelength, JonnyBGood. The fact that you do not understand why radical changes were needed in the tenth round leaves us with too little common ground. You did not understand my point, and it seems some of my arguments were misunderstood as well. No worries, it isn't important, and nor am I. It is not like anything major will happen to Planetarion in the foreseeable future anyway, so suggesting "radical" changes is somewhat pointless.
Strawmanned again! I didn't criticise you for making radical changes. I criticised you for making changes which were a bag of shit. I mean a radical change would have been to turn the game into a flower-making contest but I'm pretty sure that would have been a shit change as well.

As for radical changes for the foreseeable future I'd far rather see them than not see them. I actually play the game and occasionally enjoy it from time to time so it's definitely in my best interest. While it's obviously not in yours given that they refused to sell it to you and you're making your own game anyways there's no real point in talking about it. Not that I wouldn't prefer to see you running pa again, a revamped planetarion run again by spinner would be good for at least a couple of thousand extra new signups!
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 13:31   #77
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Re: Round 36

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Strawmanned again! I didn't criticise you for making radical changes. I criticised you for making changes which were a bag of shit. I mean a radical change would have been to turn the game into a flower-making contest but I'm pretty sure that would have been a shit change as well.

As for radical changes for the foreseeable future I'd far rather see them than not see them. I actually play the game and occasionally enjoy it from time to time so it's definitely in my best interest. While it's obviously not in yours given that they refused to sell it to you and you're making your own game anyways there's no real point in talking about it. Not that I wouldn't prefer to see you running pa again, a revamped planetarion run again by spinner would be good for at least a couple of thousand extra new signups!
Hehe, my english is obviously lacking, cause I don't understand these strawman-phrases, but it sounds intriguing.
Let me see if I can rephrase it then:
Most of the changes (allthough poorly implemented, I'll not argue on that point) were actually needed changes, whether you think they were "a bag of shit" or not. There had to be ways of playing the game without being in a top galaxy or a top galaxy. If you fail to understand WHY they were needed or didn't like them like them, does not change this. But the fact remains: Ever since going p2p, the game was doomed.

When a game drops 90% of it's playerbase (which happened before PAX), and it's core gameplay can only work well as long as there is an increasing playerbase, there are two choices only: Do nothing, or try to adapt.
Since Fudge and Vish were both gone (the only 2 real programmers we ever had) and I knew nothing of C++, I had to become a coder (of sorts) and do it all from scratch.

It is of course much easier now, in retrospect, to point out where it went wrong. But as I tried to explain, the damage was done loooong before PAX, and even if you did not like the changes it brought, that was where the attempt of rescue actually started.

The concept of PA might have worked for YOU, and the most hardcore players. The problem was that it alienated the majority of the players.
PA was a flawed game that was P2P, only enjoyable for the top dogs, not good-looking, not friendly towards new players...The list goes on.

I hope this did not include any strawmen, whatever they are, and I apologize for using them previously, in whatever way I might have done so.

And thanks for the idea about flower-making, I'll certainly consider it for any potential future games (-;
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 13:32   #78
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Re: Round 36

"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To 'attack a straw man' is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the 'straw man'), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 13:52   #79
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Re: Round 36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Let me see if I can rephrase it then:
Most of the changes (allthough poorly implemented, I'll not argue on that point) were actually needed changes, whether you think they were "a bag of shit" or not. There had to be ways of playing the game without being in a top galaxy or a top galaxy. If you fail to understand WHY they were needed or didn't like them like them, does not change this. But the fact remains: Ever since going p2p, the game was doomed.
I'm really not sure if this was what killed it. There were just a lot of badly stagnated rounds which drove people away. Could this have been mitigated by shorter rounds? Partially I guess but yeah there are obviously issues there. I'm not denying there were problems, I think many of the pax rounds under multitargeting have been way better game-wise than what pa was originally. But the concepts were simple and that's why they appealed. In the end pa lost it's core demographic, the hardcore gamers, because there are much better games to spend your time on which don't really cost much more. When the slump kicked in it then accelerated because the fewer players there were the worse it got, as you say.

Quote:
The concept of PA might have worked for YOU, and the most hardcore players. The problem was that it alienated the majority of the players.
PA was a flawed game that was P2P, only enjoyable for the top dogs, not good-looking, not friendly towards new players...The list goes on.
PA is a fairly confusing game in terms of how it developed. I've always assumed, and correct me if i'm wrong here, that you never thought in the first place that alliances would take off in the way they did. The game was just a basic universe but the great thing about was that it left so much open. The problem was that as a contest it could be ended fairly quickly. But yeah, pa demands activity to make it interesting. Even now the best rounds are the ones where people have to break their balls to win it, and they have to break other people as well along the way. That's just what a war game is though. It's war. In my opinion you have to focus on the game part of it, and make that interesting, in order to prevent people drifting away due to lack of interest.

Quote:
And thanks for the idea about flower-making, I'll certainly consider it for any potential future games (-;
Please leave it out of spinner's spaceships or whatever your new game will be, I might actually want to play that
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 14:01   #80
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Re: Round 36

See, now we're talking on the same frequency.
"Spinners Spaceships" (err, right) will not have any flowers, I promise. Or, actually, maybe I should mention some flowers in a ship-description in your honour (-:
Your assumption about alliances is correct, and you could repeat the sentence again and replace "alliances" with "the game". I am not sure that the game was more "open" though, but you might be referring to various limitations added later.

Oh, and thank you, Mzyxptlk, for explaining the strawman thing. If I did it, I did not do so intentionally.

All the best.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 14:10   #81
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Re: Round 36

Open like a blank canvas is open. The best things that happened in PA were never about the stats or the game or travel-times or whatever. They were about how much was left up to you. How a cluster could be a graveyard for every alliance in each block because they spent the whole round raping each other. Or how they could agree to avoid each other and gain the top ranks. It was great, and still is, that people can choose where to place their loyalties, with a bg, a gal or an alliance (nodrog, who you might remember, thought it was about only your own planet). Those kinds of things were all open and were progressively shut down or ignored as the game continued. It wasn't cool.

I'll take a moderating position for the forums ahead of the flower description by the way! Got to have something to properly ego-trip over y'know.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 18:13   #82
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Re: Round 36

I think part of what is missing in the byplay here is the fact that part of what made the game appealing originally, and what keeps people playing now is the social/political side of the game. While PA is certainly a war game, it is also a place where people simply hang out and talk about whatever. PA was a social network long before social networking was cool! And part of the reason we have players like myself who have been around for a very long time is because we've made friends in PA and don't want to loose those friendships.

I for one have always enjoyed how PA allowed me to interact with people from all over the world, and continuing that trend is what will hold the game together... possibly indefinitely. There are people who will pay to play PA for as long as it exists, I would bet largely because of this.

This being said Spinner is absolutely right, PA from the beginning was a game with major flaws because the creators never anticipated the social interactions that would develop between the players. I recall those early days of getting absolutely buried by HUGE players (I was a newbie then) but always being able to find smaller players to bash to make up for it. Things like the bash limit, covert ops, the XP system, and other such changes have in fact made life easier for the small player, but the real problem is the one Spinner articulates, which is the success of the game is predicated on an constant influx of new player to form the bottom of the food chain. The current PA team has tried to help this to some degree with the bots, but they are really a poor substitute for new players.
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Unread 26 Feb 2010, 19:25   #83
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Re: Round 36

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Oh, and thank you, Mzyxptlk, for explaining the strawman thing. If I did it, I did not do so intentionally.
I didn't think you did. Always happy to be of assistance!
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