Open Letter to Spinner

[Dworak]

Since you seem to have stopped responding to emails/msgs with the involved parties I guess its time to make it more.. public.


As you still claim that this galaxy in question was/is a planned galaxy (according to what I get out of your mails). I want to know a thing or two.

- Is it possible to create a "private" galaxy with the current setup?

- Do you intend to send out ingame mails to everyone that ends up in a galaxy with one or more of their alliancemates and label them cheaters?

- Since you stated in one of your mails that your system wasnt working (or was flawed), will there be a reshuffle before tickstart?



According to my trusted sources you should have received some evidence you cant ignore by now. And should review your opinion in this case.
I have also got my first question answered by several members of the PA-Team. But I would like an answer from you anyway.



All efforts to put an end to cheating are welcome. But be careful on how (and who) you are accusing. Dont let stress and frustration get the upper hand when it comes to costumer relations.


Good luck on getting Planetarion back on its feet.



Dworak

[Barrow|Pony]

Please, listen to the man.

As I've said to Spinner through all the methods of communication I can think of, being befuddled at the luck of some is fine. Being confused by the way the system works is also fine. Admitting that there are flaws in the placement methods is dandy.

But accusing innocent players and long time anti-cheating advocates of having no integrity and attacking their morality crosses the line.

I've offered multiple displays of evidence to prove that the players in question are completely legitimate, I've offered my insight regarding my relationships with the players, I've offered my logs of our conversations as soon as they realized the great luck they happened upon. I don't know how else to help dispell these unfounded allegations.

Please help me help you.
#newdawn
[email protected]

[Makhil]

if it's a big alliance, then the odds are they will end up with a few mates in the paid universe. No cheating involved.
But if it's a small alliance, it becomes suspect.

[Gerbie]

I'm not Spinner, but the answers are easy to guess:
- yes, it's possible;
- no, it's not against any rules, unless you consider it a bug people are supposed to report;
- ofc there will be a shuffle. They always say there is no shuffle, then people abuse that, so they shuffle after all. I expect this shuffle will commence as soon as all the major alliances have moved to the payed universe.

Now all move to the payed universe so we can get that shuffle.

[Spinner]

Very good, take it to the public, try to stir up fuzz, start a revolution, bread and circus to the people. I am sure I don't have more important things to pursue at the moment than your personal grunt.

What do you want then mr innocent?

"I am sorry that memberS of your own alliance came forward and reported your plan" ?

"I am sorry that your galaxy was the first, but not the last, to be reported for this" ?

"I am sorry to say the so-called evidence I can not ignore, doesnt proove a thing" ?

You can take this to the forums all you want, I am done with the entire subject, and will not be intimidated by bringing such nonsense "out in the public".
I have work to do.

[Spearhead]

you tell um big boy :-)

btw good luck with ¨PAX .... i have lost the monkey on my back :-)

if its good ill be back for R11

good luck to all!! and stop the whining :-)

Cheers

Acid

[Maddix]

Originally posted by Spinner
Very good, take it to the public, try to stir up fuzz, start a revolution, bread and circus to the people. I am sure I don't have more important things to pursue at the moment than your personal grunt.

What do you want then mr innocent?

"I am sorry that memberS of your own alliance came forward and reported your plan" ?

"I am sorry that your galaxy was the first, but not the last, to be reported for this" ?

"I am sorry to say the so-called evidence I can not ignore, doesnt proove a thing" ?

You can take this to the forums all you want, I am done with the entire subject, and will not be intimidated by bringing such nonsense "out in the public".
I have work to do.

New Dawn and hirr in Cheating and Public Slander Shocker!*

Only a very vague idea of what this is about, but seems his evidence is quite strong, go Spinner go!


*Information may not be accurate, but it sounded good

[The Seal]

a sad affair

[Knight Theamion]

can you please move my planet to the paid universe already, i did have prepaid credits etc

[Zeus]

From spinners comments it looks like the signup abuse was reported by a fellow alliance memeber. This was then investigated and found to be true. End of story.

There was no need for it to go public, nor a need for this thread, which will only tell more people of the action of the people concerned.

I also doubt Spinner will reply again on this thread as everyone is aware his workload is surely at peek now, so why not give the guy a chance to do his work instead of trying to get public points against him please.

As for anyone commenting who is not involved in the case, claims of I know this guy, a member of my alliance, etc.. doesnt say anything at all. I dont beleive its anything to do with the alliance, but the individual, therfore those comments would automatically be overlooked as they are biased.

Just my two cents worth.

[hook]

Originally posted by Spinner

What do you want then mr innocent?

Takes a truely amazing businessman to throw out his work-stress on his customers.

Pffft, if that is the way you feel most suited to talk to people then I pray to god I never have the displeasure of talking to you in person.

[Zeus]

Originally posted by hook
Takes a truely amazing businessman to throw out his work-stress on his customers.

Pffft, if that is the way you feel most suited to talk to people then I pray to god I never have the displeasure of talking to you in person.

I take it the reply was in the same vain and tone from the orginal posters and I hope you do some day have the pleasure of talking to him in person, I assure you, you would would be plesantly surprised.

[JammyJim]

Actually your quite wrong about spinner there hook.

[hook]

Originally posted by Zeus
I take it the reply was in the same vain and tone from the orginal posters and I hope you do some day have the pleasure of talking to him in person, I assure you, you would would be plesantly surprised.

I might be indeed Zeus,

Problem is though, when we get unsatisfied customers and they shout scream or do whatever to me, I don't start shouting and screaming myself. That's simply not the way. No matter how you twist it, the customer is vital, as we say in holland the customer is king.

Instead of replying in the same vain and tone to the original poster, as voice to the people (since Spinner fullfills that task in most cases) especially Spinner ought to be a bit more careful in his choice of words.

The fighting fire with fire method isn't the way really.

[hook]

Originally posted by JammyJim
Actually your quite wrong about spinner there hook.

I might be, I'm just judging him and his attitude towards customers giving him 'problems' in a busy period on the way he is handling this.

It's easy to pretend to be the all seeing all knowing eye. Nevertheless in this case he's wrong, and to me he seems about arrogant enough to react as if his 'opionions' are theocratic.

[cura]

Originally posted by Spinner
"I am sorry to say the so-called evidence I can not ignore, doesnt proove a thing" ?

how can you say such a thing?

it purely shows that a person who YOU accuse and thus insult for cheating got a message from his Galaxy Commander who at that time doesn't know who ended in the galaxy. In which he asks the newly joined Galaxy member certain opinions about the galaxy, and to get a IRC channel, if he knew it was a member of the same alliance, why would he use PA mail and not just ask it on IRC?
If somebody cheats your flawed system to end in a galaxy with alliance m8s I surely don't think one of the persons who know about it will write such a message to get to know the person, NewDawn is a social alliance and don't have to get to know eachother by getting in the galaxy together... we already know eachother

Originally posted by Zeus
From spinners comments it looks like the signup abuse was reported by a fellow alliance memeber. This was then investigated and found to be true. End of story.

Investigated?
With investigating you obviously mean accusing the persons in question...

I've sent 2 PA mails and 3 real mails to Spinner asking for evidence, I got none except :

The accusations came from withing ND, and I have no reason to belive they
were not telling the truth. In my situation, you would belive that too (-:

from the "in my situation" part you can extract the fact that he didn't have investigated things before he accused AND DOESN'T have evidence to confirm the accusations..

[ND]CuRa - Still waiting for evidence or an apology.

Originally posted by Zeus
There was no need for it to go public, nor a need for this thread, which will only tell more people of the action of the people concerned.

We have nothing to hide, as we are all innocent, thus I see no harm for us in going public with this. Wanting to keep it quiet, however, would be the same as publicly saying we admit to the accusations/insults (which we do not obviously)..

*edit* and indeed, your reply on this forum could've been more professional, but hey, we're all humans afterall... one a bit more than another...

[Xeno]

Originally posted by Zeus
From spinners comments it looks like the signup abuse was reported by a fellow alliance memeber. This was then investigated and found to be true. End of story.

More like: Beginning of story. Spinner's public comment is insufficient. Both ND and hirr are being accused here, and I would like to remind you that these are two separate alliances. I will only talk on behalf of hirr.

hirr stribes to be known as an honest alliance with a clear anticheat stance. When a highly respected member of our alliance, in fact a former leader, is being accused of deliberately manipulating the signup procedures, the accusation no longer concerns only him, but the entire alliance. You don't need a PhD to see the psychologic mechanisms that comes to effect here.

The member in question has commented on the matter only in the private hirr forums. His statement is clear and simple: This concerns his personal integrity, and he will not play Planetarion anymore unless he receives an apology. It's not a big deal, really. A simple "I'm sorry for the inconvenience, all accusations are dropped" would do the trick.

I have great respect for Spinner's workload, simply because I know all there is to know about long hours. But I naturally have even greater respect for my friend's integrity.

It may be appropriate by Spinner the gamemaker to address any player in a casual tone, as is customary in the in-game mails. But it is unbecoming conduct by the businessman Mr. Lassem to follow-up on the initial correspondence with the bourgeois, and thus arrogant, comment: "I am sure I don't have more important things to pursue at the moment than your personal grunt".

We are your customers, Mr. Lassem, and we are a complex group. Do not, despite your workload, see us as kids. When communicating with us, remember that we are your peers.

Then, and only then, will my Mastercard start paying your bills.

Originally posted by Zeus
There was no need for it to go public, nor a need for this thread, which will only tell more people of the action of the people concerned.

The need for this issue to become publically known has already been explained. It should also be in Mr. Lassem's professional interest to get the message out to the community: Cheat, and you will pay the price.

Not to mention the great chance he now has to publically display an honest insight into his own, stressed-out mind.


Regards,
Varog Kervarec

[G.K Zhukov]

Can someone tell me whats this is all about?

(Im without internett access at home, so Im seriously out-of-loop here)

[hAl]

Originally posted by G.K Zhukov
Can someone tell me whats this is all about?

(Im without internett access at home, so Im seriously out-of-loop here)

It looks like 3 or 4 ND and hirr members that know each other landed in the same gal.
Some ND member reported them for doing this purposly and not finding this in the spirit of the game (which btw is very good)

It is fairly well possible to time your activation to land in a certain gal. Allthough quite an effort to keep track of current activation gals and good timing is required.

I presume the ND member who reported the offenders has heard them plan this scheme or heard them talk about their succesfull efforts.

Now ND and hirr look to be offended cause it the members deny this (nothing new here) and say it was a coincedence (unlikely but remotly possible). The alliance HC's support their members (nothing new here either) and now all fall over Spinner.

But it would just have been better just to keep quiet about it and just signup again. Most alliances have had their dubious episodes and this is although certainly not something to be proud of still nothing that has interfered with the game yet and will all be forgotten soon. Every new round some people try to exploit the new features and this is nothing new.

The whole idiotic discussion whether they actually did do it or not only makes it worse and in general does more harm than good to the respective alliances reputation.

Just call it an incident and agree to disagree on it and move on !!!

hAl

[Hicks]

I hope there's going to be a reshuffle.

[das_experiment]

Originally posted by Hicks
I hope there's going to be a reshuffle.

[Bu||seye]

Originally posted by Spinner
Very good, take it to the public, try to stir up fuzz, start a revolution, bread and circus to the people. I am sure I don't have more important things to pursue at the moment than your personal grunt.

Unprofessional

Originally posted by Spinner
What do you want then mr innocent?

Unfriendly

Originally posted by Spinner
You can take this to the forums all you want, I am done with the entire subject, and will not be intimidated by bringing such nonsense "out in the public".
I have work to do.

Arrogant.

PA is going down. Such a tone clearly should not be used towards paying customers, regardless if they cheated, attempted to cheat or not.
*sigh*

[artla]

one thing as I know Planetarion is owned by jolt, so I think it's something what must get to them too. Spinner is just worker here or I have got something wrong here.

[cura]

Originally posted by Hicks
I hope there's going to be a reshuffle.

this thread isn't about the shuffle, it's about false accusations that Spinner is throwing around...

I think nobody has a problem with the fact that there is gonna be a shuffle, but ppl do have a problem when the person who's got the cards blaim those ppl for the shuffle...
and he should say "Yes there is gonna be a shuffle at that time" or "No there isn't gonna be a shuffle", not threathen with a shuffle, because now all over the universe galaxies are socialising with their new members, and if there's gonna be a shuffle this is all gonna be useless..

[Maddix]

Originally posted by Bu||seye
Unprofessional

However 100% correct.

Originally posted by Bu||seye
Unfriendly

No-one was every friendly to LDK.

Originally posted by Bu||seye
Arrogant.

Actually he's the boss.

Originally posted by Bu||seye
PA is going down. Such a tone clearly should not be used towards paying customers, regardless if they cheated, attempted to cheat or not.
*sigh*

Laughable. What right do these 'paying customers' have to publically try and insult and provoke Spinner because he has evidence of them cheating?

[Banned]

I'm going to have so much fun leaking 'inside' information about 'alliance-mates' this round.*

However, one thing is perfectly clear: Spinner is fully within his rights to do this. You can whine, present valid and good arguments all you want. But it doesn't stop the fact that it is his perogative. If it were some volunteer multi-hunter, then I'd be more willing see a wrongdoing. Jolt and the PA employees can do just about whatever they want with your accounts. And I know the next point is not popular, but it's true: If you don't like it, go play some other game**. It's really all you're truly entitled to.

And a small subjective aside: I've worked with both alliances to an extent, and never found any culture for cheating in their upper ranks. If they say they did nothing wrong, I'm inclined to believe them.

* Actually I'm not, but the question is raised whether all the people who 'rat' on others really are doing so altruistically.

** Or alternatively, take your complaints to Jolt and try to get Spinner fired and replaced***

*** I doubt Spinner's replacement would be any 'better'.

[cura]

Originally posted by Maddix
Actually he's the boss.

yeah that's sorta the whole point of arrogance...

Originally posted by Maddix
Laughable. What right do these 'paying customers' have to publically try and insult and provoke Spinner because he has evidence of them cheating?

he doesn't have evidence, but anyway, I can see you are just trying to get this thread turned into a flame thread and have it closed... so spinner again has a reason to not respond and show that he doesn't have any evidence at all

[Ruler]

I think you whiners should stfu!

Spinner was just doing his job, and there was no reason for you to post this in public (though I don't know everything about it, but I have a nice clear idea about it all).

Only reason to post it here is to get spinner to do a reply on this so you bunch of looser could flame him. So your plan worked on that but it does make you all a bunch of loosers!

The way to do this is to try an talk to spinner about this in private, and not by hanging it on the boards like this.

[cura]

Originally posted by Ruler
The way to do this is to try an talk to spinner about this in private, and not by hanging it on the boards like this.

We did.
He doesn't respond.

[dabult]

Originally posted by Maddix

Laughable. What right do these 'paying customers' have to publically try and insult and provoke Spinner because he has evidence of them cheating?

There is no 'evidence' though.

Somebody heard there was 3 members in the same gal and ran to tell Spinner they cheated. Spinner then accused the three, plus the fourth galmember.

[Maddix]

Originally posted by El-CuRa
If somebody cheats your flawed system to end in a galaxy with alliance m8s I surely don't think one of the persons who know about it will write such a message to get to know the person, NewDawn is a social alliance and don't have to get to know eachother by getting in the galaxy together... we already know eachother

Could quite easily be done deliberately to try and hide the fact they knew each other, especially as they know that Spinner has admin powers to read mails etc. Proves nothing at all.

Originally posted by El-CuRa
Investigated?
With investigating you obviously mean accusing the persons in question...

If you don't know about the investigation techniques they use don't even bother commenting on it. An investigation is not an accusation.

Originally posted by El-CuRa
I've sent 2 PA mails and 3 real mails to Spinner asking for evidence, I got none except :

from the "in my situation" part you can extract the fact that he didn't have investigated things before he accused AND DOESN'T have evidence to confirm the accusations..

No offense to either here, but this is a Dutchman's (I think) English interpreting a Norwegian's English. It is also you extractingm facts from what he rights.

Originally posted by El-CuRa
We have nothing to hide, as we are all innocent, thus I see no harm for us in going public with this. Wanting to keep it quiet, however, would be the same as publicly saying we admit to the accusations/insults (which we do not obviously)..

If you didn't plan landing in the same galaxy in the first place, why are you so keen to protect yourself and not be moved. Accept what Spinner says/accuses, be it right or wrong, and be moved to a random part of the universe (I assume he will shuffle you) - i.e. where you could have ended up when u originally signed up anyway - and it would be like nothing has happened.

Ironically no-one would even have had any reason to suspect you were cheating at all before you brought it to the boards...oops that was silly


P.S. Where the **** have you been? heh

[Ruler]

He probably has a good reason for it then!

If I had such sort of problem or someone had such sort of a problem in the past that I know, well then i know spinner as a guy who would always give his reaction to it in private or in mail. So you guys must have dealt with it in the wrong way..

and for now... /me points at his first line of his first post

[Maddix]

Originally posted by El-CuRa
I can see you are just trying to get this thread turned into a flame thread and have it closed... so spinner again has a reason to not respond and show that he doesn't have any evidence at all

You guys already turned it into a flame thread (against Spinner) long ago. In any case he has already told you he won't respond anymore, so an open or closed thread really makes no difference.

Originally posted by dabult
There is no 'evidence' though.

Somebody heard there was 3 members in the same gal and ran to tell Spinner they cheated. Spinner then accused the three, plus the fourth galmember.

Unless you are Spinner himself or someone he has directly said this to (i.e. a PATeam member I would assume) that is utter speculation.

[Barrow|Pony]

Originally posted by Maddix
Laughable. What right do these 'paying customers' have to publically try and insult and provoke Spinner because he has evidence of them cheating?

Maddix, I don't believe you'll find an insult directed towards spinner in either Dwoark's post or my own.

I do believe you'll find criticism of the policies he's used to batlantly offend a previously loyal, but now very loud segment of the PA community.

As far as why this was posted in public, I do believe it was because Spinner tried to cut off any other form of contact. As dworak said, Spinner stopped communicating via email, refused to respond to my pa-mail or email.

I'm not looking for a scandal, I'm not looking for an apology. I'm looking for a chance to clear the name of the people involved.

This is ridiculous.

[Maddix]

Originally posted by Barrow|Pony
Maddix, I don't believe you'll find an insult directed towards spinner in either Dwoark's post or my own.

I did not say nor did I intend to imply that you or Dworak had directed insults, you are however not the only two people posting in this thread.

In addition, as Jester said, having worked with the two of you I doubt very much that either of your would deliberately cheat, but if the 'big man' claims he has evidence, then as wrong as you may feel that is you might as well bite the bullet and move on.

I again ask, if they are so keen to prove they are innocent why are they so desperate not to be split up? If their coming together in the first place was indeed chance, surely they can accept the fact that it may seem suspicious and be 'replaced' randomly once again as if for the first time.

[Barrow|Pony]

Originally posted by Spinner
Very good, take it to the public, try to stir up fuzz, start a revolution, bread and circus to the people. I am sure I don't have more important things to pursue at the moment than your personal grunt.

What do you want then mr innocent?

"I am sorry that memberS of your own alliance came forward and reported your plan" ?

"I am sorry that your galaxy was the first, but not the last, to be reported for this" ?

"I am sorry to say the so-called evidence I can not ignore, doesnt proove a thing" ?

You can take this to the forums all you want, I am done with the entire subject, and will not be intimidated by bringing such nonsense "out in the public".
I have work to do.

I'm sorry, I didn't know that a IRC logs were now admissible as undeniable truths.

[Dworak]

Please close this thread.

[Xeno]

Originally posted by Maddix
If you didn't plan landing in the same galaxy in the first place, why are you so keen to protect yourself and not be moved. Accept what Spinner says/accuses, be it right or wrong, and be moved to a random part of the universe (I assume he will shuffle you) - i.e. where you could have ended up when u originally signed up anyway - and it would be like nothing has happened.

Let me quote my fellow lemming:

Originally posted on the hirr message board by the accused member:
I am all for a shuffle, it does not bother me at all, in fact I like random, its fun! However I do not wish to have my good name slurred by Spinner and whatever ill-conceived idea he has about the way I conduct myself.

So you see, from hirr's point of view this has absolutely nothing to do with shuffles or the whereabouts of our members. It's all about behaviour and good manners.


Xeno

[cura]

Originally posted by Maddix
Could quite easily be done deliberately to try and hide the fact they knew each other, especially as they know that Spinner has admin powers to read mails etc. Proves nothing at all.

if you are going this way we may aswell close the thread like dworak says, cause in this way you can always pull in favour of the person who's """investigating"""

Originally posted by Maddix

No offense to either here, but this is a Dutchman's (I think) English interpreting a Norwegian's English. It is also you extractingm facts from what he rights.

BELGIAN DAMNIT!

Originally posted by Maddix
If you didn't plan landing in the same galaxy in the first place, why are you so keen to protect yourself and not be moved. Accept what Spinner says/accuses, be it right or wrong, and be moved to a random part of the universe (I assume he will shuffle you) - i.e. where you could have ended up when u originally signed up anyway - and it would be like nothing has happened.

we have no problem to be moved, we just don't want spinner to point finger at us and accuse us while we are prolly even more against cheating than he is (we play the game as first priority, while he maintains the game as first priority)

Originally posted by Maddix
P.S. Where the **** have you been? heh

took a break from PA for a few rounds, needed that after having u as a GC

[Barrow|Pony]

All 3 ND members are also in support of a shuffle, provided it isnt "their fault."

[Maddix]

Originally posted by El-CuRa
BELGIAN DAMNIT!

Belgian, Dutch, close enough (Same point stands tho)
[/b][/quote]

Originally posted by El-CuRa
we have no problem to be moved, we just don't want spinner to point finger at us and accuse us while we are prolly even more against cheating than he is (we play the game as first priority, while he maintains the game as first priority)

Unfrotunately taking this public has only exposed your names, where as before only Spinner (and maybe PATeam) would have known.

Originally posted by El-CuRa
took a break from PA for a few rounds, needed that after having u as a GC

[cura]

Originally posted by Maddix
Belgian, Dutch, close enough (Same point stands tho)

yeh ur right, same point stands, but he should know decent english (being the "boss" like you say of an international game), and imo he does speak decent english and really did mean what he said..

AND BELGIUM > DUTCHIELAND DAMNIT

Originally posted by Maddix
Unfrotunately taking this public has only exposed your names, where as before only Spinner (and maybe PATeam) would have known.

like I said, we have nothing to hide, we are innocent so I don't care if our names are exposed

[zenopus]

Originally posted by Barrow|Pony
I'm not looking for a scandal, I'm not looking for an apology. I'm looking for a chance to clear the name of the people involved.

This is ridiculous.

Before this thread was started, nothing was known publicly, so there were no names to be cleared...

I'd probably have gone for absurd or bizarre.

[Spinner]

Time to wrap this up I guess.

I'll close the thread as asked, so I will be carefull about what I say here since I will have "the last word".

I will not place the "blame" for possible shuffle on individuals.
Ultimately I am responsible for the system, and its holes.

But you know perfectly well I can not fight back with fair means on this forum, I am bound by laws of dataprotection, and I do not post logs, emails or other forms of communication here.

But it is outright lies that I have not reponded per email or ingame messages, there has been a few, but there is no point to keep replying when there is nothing new to reply to.

Neither Hirr nor ND is being questioned here, not their integrity or their views on cheating. This was strictly the case of a report about certain plans made by certain individuals when they realised what was possible to do with the system as it existed at that time. It was a clear case of trying to "bend the system" with nice timing on activations, and no other violation of any rules etc.

But when it was decided that the past correspondance did not yield the desired result, and brought this onto the forums, you take away my ability to talk openly, and as I have said numerous times before, I don't discuss serious issues on the forums.

So, finalising this....
Both ND and Hirr are good loyal alliances, and I wish them the best in the coming game. If I have offended the alliances mentioned here, I had no intention of doing so, this was between me and the persons contacted about it, and I apologise sincerely to both alliances.

Wether there has to be a shuffle, DUE TO FAULTS IN OUR SYSTEM, not due to the action of single individuals, will be announced tomrrow. Some galaxies will have more than one alliance member anyway, so the impact is not huge. By the time all galaxies had 4 members, this method of "system-abuse" was fixed.

I hope this matter can be considered over and done with now and we can all move on to other, more interesting, things.

Got incs, brb.