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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:42   #101
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
You can never have anough alcohol.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:47   #102
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Saying that something is 'possible' without mentioning its liklihood of occuring is a completely worthless statement. Arent you meant to be a scientist or something?
If you're going to troll, at least make the argument consistent.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:50   #103
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you're going to troll, at least make the argument consistent.
Im not trolling - I called you on your bullshit statement and now youre waffling.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:51   #104
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Could be synthesised not to kill instantly, as with all drugs you can have a dosage, are you planning on banning aspirin?
I haven't read the rest of the post, but this betrays such a poor knowledge of biology that I have to reply now to say 'Whut?'
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:52   #105
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Im not trolling - I called you on your bullshit statement and now youre waffling.
You said 'prove that they can'.

I did.


Unless of course you're asking me to start research into them, in which case 'Whut?'
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 13:59   #106
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Lots of things are addictive, cigarettes for instance. Perhaps cigarretts should be banned.
Damn straight. Also, things have different 'levels' of physical addicitivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Not ALL drug related crime will vanish, however I imagine it would be significantly reduced, in fact a represntitive of ACPO agreed with me and said they had tested reducing the price of heronie in Merseyside and it had lead to a lower level of crime.
I never said most of the crime wouldn't vanish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
it might well be inconsistent with Dante's argument, your arguments are inconsistent with Deepflow's arguments, so what.
You were trying to argue with a counterpoint to one of Dante's arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well drink driving is based on reckless endangerment, which is a crime often associated with Narcotics, it used to be the case actually that it was not illegal to drive whilst high.
My vocab is still being nasty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Yes well Heroin does not kill you except in excess. If ecstacy was regualted the same a paracetemol you would cut most of the deaths. It has been pointed out that they are already miniscule. If we are making random claims I pose that probably more people would die choking on their cereal in the morning then on ecstacy.
Quite possibly. However, that's like saying 'heart attacks kill more people than guns do, lets legalise guns'. One is something that isn't linked to what the purpose of the stuff is, whilst the other is linked inherently to the chemicals involved.

If people could only choke on cereal, there may well be legislation and health warnings involved there too.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:06   #107
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
I'm sure some causes of accidental fatality like allergy or heart problems could be avoided with a little help from a doctor. :-/
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:09   #108
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
So next time you want to hide behind the veil of Biology because you are trapped in a weak ill-conceived arguement, just don't post.
You're assuming

a. that the side effects of the drug aren't caused by the same thing that makes the desired effect (methadone doesn't have the same effect as heroin, it just placates the physiological craving), which I'd hazard a guess to say that this is almost always the case, except where impurities are the problem.

b. that we can synthesise anything we want.

c. that we have a perfect understanding of neural chemistry.

I'd say that those three are flawed.

Oh, and to the methadone being the same as heroin: this disagrees
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:10   #109
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You said 'prove that they can'.

I did.


Unless of course you're asking me to start research into them, in which case 'Whut?'
Transcript of conversation so far:


Jakiri: Drugs are bad because they kill people instantly

Dante: Yes, but lots of things can kill people instantly

Jakiri: This may be true, however drugs are bad

Me: Do you have any statistical evidence to suggest that being killed instantly by drugs is even remotely likely to happen?

Jakiri: It doesnt matter if its likely to happen - people believe it anyway, and its been in the daily mail

Me: Do you have any supporting evidence for your claim

Jakiri: <waffle about statistical significance, while ignoring question for the second time>


<... a day passes...>

Jakiri: Drugs are illegal because they kill people instantly

Me: You havent justified this claim yet

Jakiri: Stop trolling, you always troll

Me:
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:10   #110
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I'm sure some causes of accidental fatality like allergy or heart problems could be avoided with a little help from a doctor. :-/
The link I posted (earlier, vs nod) seems to imply that you can't remove any but the most obviously under threat.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:12   #111
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
...
You still haven't explained your use of the word significant, which I think is (hoho) significant to the discussion, depending on its context.

That's also a really bad summation of my argument.

That's also ignoring the fact I posted a sodding link saying that this can occur.

As jonny said, you're just a big trollhound atm.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:15   #112
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You still haven't explained your use of the word significant, which I think is (hoho) significant to the discussion, depending on its context.

That's also a really bad summation of my argument.

That's also ignoring the fact I posted a sodding link saying that this can occur.

As jonny said, you're just a big trollhound atm.
Im going to take this as an admission that you were unable to find any evidence showing that instant death from drugs is remotely likely to happen, and are withdrawing your previous claim.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:16   #113
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Im going to take this as an admission that you were unable to find any evidence showing that instant death from drugs is remotely likely to happen, and are withdrawing your previous claim.
You do that. I'm not going to hunt for clinical trials and the like.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:23   #114
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
D) It says they are both opoids, and the only difference is its affect not its basic makeup. SO hardly a ringing disagreement there.
'As I understand it, methadone is just heroin but it makes you throw up'

It's obvious that they're going to be in the same group of chemicals, otherwise it WOULDN'T WORK. However, that doesn't make your statement above accurate.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:26   #115
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
a) Tis possible, don't make it illegal, as with poison just write on the front: "this will kill you," although you might add, millions of people use this every day and are fine even when they get it from dodgy geezers under railway bridges.
I don't see how this is relelvent. You were trying to say that it could be synthicised not to have the 'instant death' problem, I said it almost certainly couldn't. How does the bit about railway bridges fit in this at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
We know that many drugs are synthesised, so the possibility is at least there.
The possibility is indeed there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I don't make that assumption at all.
For us to synthicise something that brings about a similar effect to heroin but without the side effects we'd need a much better understanding of neural chemistry than we have currently.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 14:58   #116
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I disagree with that last point, Surely the role of experimentation is to test the effects of something without having to understand it intimately.
Not with human subjects, no.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 15:15   #117
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Fortunatly we have a whole generation of worthless teenagers ready to take anyhting given to them by a bloke in a yellow puffer jacket.
good plan.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 15:56   #118
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Fortunatly we have a whole generation of worthless teenagers ready to take anyhting given to them by a bloke in a yellow puffer jacket.
Yes, well done. Now you can expect to be taken seriously.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 16:10   #119
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well looking back at your informed comments on the subject I still feel secure about that.
This isn't anything new you know. This argument has appeared on (and not just on) countless forums, and it's always the same "points" being made by people who end up going off to check their facts three posts later and then don't post again. Frankly it's a tiresome and often (as we have seen here) circular debate, and I cba with most of it any more.

But you can be sure that if you're going to waffle nonsense about biology and medical ethics, you are going to attract my undivided attention.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 16:16   #120
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
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Originally Posted by idimmu
Nod, now you're in London, go down to Peckham late at night and find some black people to walk past.

Then the next time you are on line please post and tell us how good drugs are for society.


Although I think a better solution would be locking all black people up in concentration camps as statistically speaking a higher percentage of people who commit crimes did so while being under the influence of being black. Or all poor people, the groups overlap.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 16:31   #121
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
That's not what I'm suggesting at all.

If anything I was quite disappointed when your argument went all "let's test on the junkies", because up until then you seemed to be arguing for people's rights.

(Not that I'm against performing horrible experiments on stoners and druggies per se, just that it doesn't gel very well with the whole "people should have the right to more responsibility for their own lives" argument.)
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 17:10   #122
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
This weekend I shall be taking ecstacy. Bought from a fellow user, thus we're sure we're not getting crap - he's never sold us anything dodgy.

I shall probably take 2 pills max, and have no more than a few beers.

I shall dance (rather well!) for a sizeable chunk of the night, then go home, after chatting with many people, shaking hands, joking, hugging, etc.

Compare this to going out and getting pissed, vomitting, having a fight, causing general trouble...

This is why these days I'd rather take pills than get pissed. MDMA is a much nicer drug than Alcohol.

The chances of an instant death are TINY.

Taking two pills will help me dance, thus keeping me fit. As I'm an experienced user, I'll chill out a lot, and drink enough (but not too much water.

So Short is right to call for legalisation. If it's legal, it'll be less full of crap, there'll be less crime, and there'll (hopefully) be more education and awareness.

Okay, so my argument applies mainly just to E. But it's transferable to most soft drugs.

Portugal has a good strategy: Turn a blind eye to soft drugs, and run national education campaigns about the legality of it, and the safe use. For harder drugs, users are treated as patients, not criminals.

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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 17:23   #123
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Sorry missed this post. Right so the fact that Methodone is basically the same as Heroine and makes you throw up is a completely different statement is it? Again it is not really relavent to the overall point of thread, I was merely speculating, nothing you have said has proven that speculation to be ill founded.
I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Things can belong to the same general group of chemicals and have different properties, and wildly different effects on the body in general. In this case Methadone has a very different effect to heroin, with only the physiological addiction being commonly targeted.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:00   #124
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
could MrL please address my points i made earlier... which he did ignore after i said "im going". im back now. if you dont want to, dont worry though.

also

"However, these problems only manifest themselves as problems after 'excess' use (circular definition, I know)." <- originally posted by mrl

doesnt actually deny the problems... i fail to see how it actually makes any relevant points in the argument. etc.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:02   #125
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Something along the line of both laws protect you and everyone else, even if that is not their original aim.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:05   #126
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
why does banning the use of alchohol protect everyone else again? so you dont get violent? i know a lot of people who get more friendly (and everyone knows people get into bed easier... eg) on alchohol.

and the idea of people fighting on ecstasy is just silly.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:07   #127
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
On that point clearly the idea that the law has been effective protection against drugs is complete nonsense.
I never said it wasn't, just that there is a danger in decriminalising all drugs.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:08   #128
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
why does banning the use of alchohol protect everyone else again? so you dont get violent? i know a lot of people who get more friendly (and everyone knows people get into bed easier... eg) on alchohol.
I meant more specifically the antidrink laws that exist, such as drink driving. Obviously, there are some that are designed to protect the individual, such as no child under 5 being permitted to consume alcohol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
and the idea of people fighting on ecstasy is just silly.
Ecstasy yes, but heroin and the like? No.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:11   #129
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
people are more likely to fight on heroin? are you sure. have you ever seen anyone on heroin?

anyway, the only possible violence inducing ones that spring to my mind are speed and cocaine. Personally i wouldnt legalise speed, if just to stop people suffering the comedown... just as far as ecstacy/cannabis goes though... what are the actual arguments for not legalising them?

btw... decriminalising is the most stupid idea i can think of. Althouhg of course legalisation is quite a big "step" for a government to take and i can see how it would be difficult.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:12   #130
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
people are more likely to fight on heroin? are you sure. have you ever seen anyone on heroin?
They get violent later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
anyway, the only possible violence inducing ones that spring to my mind are speed and cocaine. Personally i wouldnt legalise speed, if just to stop people suffering the comedown... just as far as ecstacy/cannabis goes though... what are the actual arguments for not legalising them?
Don't know, I'm prolegalisation of cannabis.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:14   #131
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
just as far as ecstacy/cannabis goes though... what are the actual arguments for not legalising them?
.
Why should they be legalised? Youre the one that wants to change the status quo - the burden of proof is on you. From the first part of your post you obviously dont believe in any inherrant 'right' to take a particular drug, so what exactly are your grounds for legalising ecstacy/cannabis?
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:15   #132
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
They get violent later..
you mean to get the money to feed the habit? of course, but people get violent for the need for money for anything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Don't know, I'm prolegalisation of cannabis.
ecstacy?
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:16   #133
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Why should they be legalised? Youre the one that wants to change the status quo - the burden of proof is on you. From the first part of your post you obviously dont believe in any inherrant 'right' to take a particular drug, so what exactly are your grounds for legalising ecstacy/cannabis?
No more dangerous than legal drugs, is the main argument, coupled with the fact that use isn't exactly uncommon as things stand, and therefore people are putting themselves in more danger than necessary (impurities, organised crime etc)
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:19   #134
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Why should they be legalised? Youre the one that wants to change the status quo - the burden of proof is on you. From the first part of your post you obviously dont believe in any inherrant 'right' to take a particular drug, so what exactly are your grounds for legalising ecstacy/cannabis?
1. why is the status quo assumed to be what needs to be looked upon as the first consideration (badly worded, hope you know what i mean)

2. where do i say i dont believe people have a right to use drugs? you read something between the lines that wasnt there. never mind though. I do however think that the vast majoraty of drugs shouldnt be legalised, as it is difficult to a certain extent to get drugs, not a massive extent, but harder than just walking into a shop. And i wouldnt advocate the use of what i consider to be the dangerous drugs (dangerous to others that is).

3. and my grounds for legalising ecstacy/cannabis are probably the ones youve heard a million times before, safer, and revenue for the government. + the loss of a certain level of the criminal element.

P.S im still managing to get a game of go in a day... on the computers im not meant to play games on, i dont think people care as long as there isnt a massive demand... either way, go rocks \o/
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:20   #135
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
you mean to get the money to feed the habit? of course, but people get violent for the need for money for anything.
Depends, the greater the physiological and psychological need, the more violent. And as I understand it, those are both enormous with heroin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
ecstacy?
Not familiar with the effects, so I couldn't say.

Part of the problem for the legalisation argument of E is that it's got a slightly greater social stigma attached (smoking is and has been acceptable [for the most part] for a very large amount of time; ecstacy has a less acceptable medium of delivery).
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:22   #136
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
social stigma shouldnt come into a scientific argument (although of course it does). but if you actually admit you dont know, i can respect that. and it actually makes a refreshing change for you

you go!
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:30   #137
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Depends, the greater the physiological and psychological need, the more violent. And as I understand it, those are both enormous with heroin.
If we go back several pages you'll see that one of the problems is that the price of heroin (and other drugs) is kept high by a government monopoly. If you're an alcoholic, the craving for alcohol can be tremendous but there aren't that many crimes with people robbing for money for booze, since alcohol is relatively cheap (for a proportionate dose, etc).

As for the social stigma point, your argument is weirdly raging between pragmatic political points (i.e. "The current government couldn't do it because the Daily Mail would oppose it") and scientific/rational points. We're all aware that there is a stigma on drugs, and there's a lot of stupid views around about it. But these views shouldn't matter to supposedly rational people debating the subject in a theoretical manner.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:33   #138
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As for the social stigma point, your argument is weirdly raging between pragmatic political points (i.e. "The current government couldn't do it because the Daily Mail would oppose it") and scientific/rational points.
I'm partially arguing my beliefs, partially playing Devil's Advocate, partially arguing practicalities.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:35   #139
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I'm partially arguing my beliefs, partially playing Devil's Advocate, partially arguing practicalities.
Stick to the first. The second is basically trolling, and the latter doesn't matter since none of us are in a position to effect all of this (so we're not advising the government) and with the possible exception of MM, I doubt anyone cares about Labour party policy.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:38   #140
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The second is basically trolling
I think not; trolling is attempting to annoy people, not expanding and continuing the discussion.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:44   #141
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
I think not; trolling is attempting to annoy people, not expanding and continuing the discussion.
I generally categorise someone as a troll if they post something in argument which they don't agree with just to cause/further said argument.

[edit]The distinction being that an anti-American going onto a US board to cause an argument might be flame-bait, but would not be a troll per se[/edit]
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 18:45   #142
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I generally categorise someone as a troll if they post something in argument which they don't agree with just to cause/further said argument.
That's quite a broad definition.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 19:21   #143
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I generally categorise someone as a troll if they post something in argument which they don't agree with just to cause/further said argument.
I would make the distinction between something they don't believe in and something they know to be false or flawed.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 19:38   #144
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G_frog
I would make the distinction between something they don't believe in and something they know to be false or flawed.
Perhaps, but I don't find that a particularly useful distinction. Most views I hold are either utterly subjective (in which case there's no real argument) or when vaguely objective I think are less flawed than the opposing arguments. If that makes sense.
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Unread 12 Nov 2003, 19:42   #145
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
1. why is the status quo assumed to be what needs to be looked upon as the first consideration (badly worded, hope you know what i mean)
Because if you want to change something, you should give reasons for why you want it changed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
2. where do i say i dont believe people have a right to use drugs?.
Here:

Quote:
I do however think that the vast majoraty of drugs shouldnt be legalised
also here:

Quote:
Personally i wouldnt legalise speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
3. and my grounds for legalising ecstacy/cannabis are probably the ones youve heard a million times before, safer, and revenue for the government. + the loss of a certain level of the criminal element.
Safer than what? And legalising heroin/cocaine would provide revenue for the government also, as well as wiping out a far greater criminal element (not that I think this is relevant)



edit: The 'ecstasy/cannibas are just as dangerous as tobacco and alcohol!!' argument is really really stupid, since you arent actually giving any reasons why you support legalising the former 2, and not criminalising the latter 2.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 03:30   #146
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
ok i missed this since i was doing other things but lets look into the future a little

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3092690.stm

now assuming that say a vaccine is created that stops you getting high from whatever drug (nicotine/alcohol/cocaine/heroin/e etc etc a general vaccine) would you now support the legalisation of drugs? and for those of you who are completely against the legalisation of drugs would you administer a vaccine to all kids to stop them ever getting into the habit? personally id legalise all drugs and only administer the vaccine to those who felt they needed it (because of serious* addiction) but im a little unsure if parents should have the right to 'choose' for their kids what 'lifestyle' to follow and if country wide mass vaccinations should be allowed.

* serious denotes a major affect on their lifestlye, ie they spend all their money and families money on drugs, and they know they need help
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 16:40   #147
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Because if you want to change something, you should give reasons for why you want it changed?

Here:

also here:

Safer than what? And legalising heroin/cocaine would provide revenue for the government also, as well as wiping out a far greater criminal element (not that I think this is relevant)



edit: The 'ecstasy/cannibas are just as dangerous as tobacco and alcohol!!' argument is really really stupid, since you arent actually giving any reasons why you support legalising the former 2, and not criminalising the latter 2.
1. why? still. thats putting a fair amount of faith in the "status quo" to begin with.

2. OK, i dont think people have a right to use certain drugs. Some i think they do.

3. Im assuming drugs supplied by the government would be safer than those supplied by criminals, as they would be subject to scientific testing and wouldnt be cut with potentially dangerous substances.

4. Um... i did give arguments for legalising the other 2. And any arguments for not criminalising the other 2 are completely outweighed by the fact that if they WERE criminalised then there would be a massive upsurge in crime etc. I think thats probably been proved by 1930s chicago. Also simply the opposites of the arguments for legalisation, eg more dangerous.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 17:31   #148
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
1. why is the status quo assumed to be what needs to be looked upon as the first consideration (badly worded, hope you know what i mean)
Because it takes effort to change. Of all the alternatives, status quo is always the one that is most easilly arrived at.
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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 17:33   #149
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by W
Because it takes effort to change. Of all the alternatives, status quo is always the one that is most easilly arrived at.

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Unread 17 Nov 2003, 17:35   #150
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Re: hard drugs on NHS?
"most easily arrived at" doesnt mean best.

and i think you probably misinterpreted what i said there... i did say it was badly worded though. sorry

i did mean "why is it always correct until proven otherwise" just because it is the easiest answer doesnt mean it should be so readily accepted. The status quo in other places is looked upon with exactly the same attitude, we are saying that all those other places are wrong every time we say our status quo is right. That kind of latent arrogance is unnaceptable... imo
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