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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:34   #51
KaneED
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I suffer the saem as Dante in that I can't focus and am continually distracted by new and interesting things, such as sticking things to the wall with blue tack. I realise this is more procrastination but it really is the bain of my life.

I'm scared of wasps, bees, hornets, daddy long legs', anything that can sting me really. I know why it is too. I disturbed a nest of bees or wasps and they chased after and tried to kill. Scariest thing that ever happened to me a think.

I also have to have things in certain pockets when i go out. For instance, I ahve to have my phone and money in my left pocket. I ahve my keys and my inhaler in my right pocket. I have my wallet in my back right pocket. I take a card out to use and don't put it back in my wallet, it needs to go in my front right pocket. If I get a receipt, it has to go into my left front pocket. If I'm missing something from my pockets I feel it and have to fill the space if I can't find whats missing.

Also, I'm inherently untidy and have stuff strewn all over the place, but for things like books and DVD's and games I have to have them in perfect order. Usually I do it by size order, and they must be all flush otherwise it doesn't work.


I think thats it.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:35   #52
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

dont keep your wallet in your back pocket, thats just poor practice
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:36   #53
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
dont keep your wallet in your back pocket, thats just poor practice
i'd know if someone nicked it, i can feel something out of place. i'm like a jedi really
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:39   #54
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

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daddy long legs', anything that can sting me really.
That some scary spiders you have in Aberystwyth :eek:.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:44   #55
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I don't get it but ok!
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:45   #56
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

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Originally Posted by KaneED
I also have to have things in certain pockets when i go out. For instance, I ahve to have my phone and money in my left pocket. I ahve my keys and my inhaler in my right pocket. I have my wallet in my back right pocket. I take a card out to use and don't put it back in my wallet, it needs to go in my front right pocket. If I get a receipt, it has to go into my left front pocket. If I'm missing something from my pockets I feel it and have to fill the space if I can't find whats missing.
that's like angelo dundee
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:46   #57
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

i think he may have been getting at the fact that daddy long legs dont sting so it must just be a massive spider.

(for all i know they do sting though, im not a bloody animalologist, ive just never heard of it)
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:46   #58
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

i don't know who that is but oK!
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:47   #59
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
i think he may have been getting at the fact that daddy long legs dont sting so it must just be a massive spider.

(for all i know they do sting though, im not a bloody animalologist, ive just never heard of it)
the girl daddy logs' have stings.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:47   #60
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
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that's like angelo
KaneEd walks on the ceiling!
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:52   #61
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
the girl daddy logs' have stings.
You sure?

They might bite but its hardly going to be anything major from a tiny spider.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:53   #62
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

They Have Stings, I Just Said I Was Scared Of Antyhing That Stings. Therefore If It could Sting Me I'm Scared Of It.


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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:54   #63
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
You sure?

They might bite but its hardly going to be anything major from a tiny spider.
The flying daddy long legs (the most commonly seen) are a type of fly
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:54   #64
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

From Mr Google:

Daddy-long-legs look like long-legged spiders but are actually relatives of spiders. They only have one body section (spiders have two body sections). They do not sting or have venom. Daddy-long-legs feed on plants and sometimes decaying materials in forests.

No need to panic now. Thats one fear over come, just a few more to go.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:55   #65
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

is there a way to get rid of that silly caps filter... it's silly
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:56   #66
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

WHAT SILLY CAPS FILTER...?
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:57   #67
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

The Girls Have Pincers That Sting Look At Them Next Time They Try And Kill You
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:58   #68
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

The One In The Quick Reply Box, Dear
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 12:59   #69
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I'M USING THE QUICK REPLY BOX, DEAR
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 13:01   #70
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

It ****s Up For Me
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 13:02   #71
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I fear 'odd' looking spiders. I don't mind the 'normal' looking ones to a point (the point at which they'll still fit in a glass), but ones with excessively long legs and tiny tiny bodies freak me out. Wholly irrational.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 14:30   #72
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

It's not really psychological, but every watch I've ever owned slowly gets faster and faster. I think it's currently 7 minutes fast. It usually stays around there, so I don't bother changing it. I have to deduct 7 every time I look at my watch.

I have an ever decreasing attention span. I couldn't even finish that paragraph without doing something else. Makes writing essays a nightmare.

There is probably more but I'm bored already.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 15:02   #73
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Noisy and messy eaters. People who crunch, chew with their mouth open, bite the fork, slurp, talk, lick their lips too much.

I can remember a time when none of this bothered me, but somehow, over the years it's got gradually worse to the point where if I'm eating in company, I'm thinking more about blocking them out (and therefore focusing on every sound they make) than anything else. It's progressing beyond sound now to the point where I don't like to see an eating mouth moving. Family christmasses are probably the worst.

It's contagious too. Some people who are aware I am like this find themselves agreeing and joining the "mental eating" club. Then they blame me; "I would never have noticed if it hadn't been for you."

I'm torn between forcing myself to accept it and stop being such a loony, and my dream of a world where everyone eats alone in sound-proof cubicles
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 15:32   #74
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I couldn't really think of anything until you mentioned that but people who smack their lips together when eating drive me insane. It has often got to the point where I will just pick up my food and go eat elsewhere or if it isn't a situation I can do that I will make some excuse and just leave. Also people chewing gum winds me up when they don't keep their mouth shut and you just see them constantly chewing on these gum.

As far as it is possible I think I "caught" this off my mother as she is really affected by these as well.

I also like things to be round numbers. For example in Championship Manager all my wages and bonuses will be as round as the wage structure lets, same for transfer offcers. In Planetarion my ship numbers are always rounded off to the nearest 10, then 50, 100, 1000 etc... as I get bigger then my alarm is aways set to on the hour or half past when possible, if not I will use quarter past or to.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 15:43   #75
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Amongst quite a few things ...

I regularly think i'm being watched. I get a very strong compulsion that there are video cameras behind mirrors i'm looking in. It's so bad that i regularly check behind the mirror to "make sure" (even in my own flat when i've been in all day since the last time i checked and as such no covert government crack spy squads could have placed a camera etc). The feeling is worse when i'm in non-home surroundings (friends home/work etc) but it's still bad/irritating enough at home (home being the flat ... my parents house is classed in the same category as friends/work places).

Like i say ... it's just one of a few mental problems i have :shrug:
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 15:47   #76
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

BTW as to reasons ...

I reckon, what with self-analysis and all, that because of all the "bad thoughts" i have in my head (which i seriously consider implementing) i subconciously think i should be watched by some kind of (Government) agency (to make sure i don't do anything "naughty").

But then i don't have a psychology degree so ...
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 15:49   #77
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Also my mental problems (some of which started years ago) have become less acute since i started playing football and implementing steps in my "Grand Plan" so it's all :up:



[/just so you know]
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 17:56   #78
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I believe there are things that live in the dark and the only way I notice them is by the sounds they make at night.


I think it came from when I was young and a cat jumped in my window into my room and when I switched on my bedside light (which isn't very powerful) all I could see were these two glowing eyes in the dark). This means when I'm on my own in a room and I'm trying to get to sleep I talk out loud.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 18:03   #79
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I like to stalk people I meet on the Internet and I like hiding in dark places.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 18:13   #80
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
I'm as bi-polar as they come verging on split personalities.

Just ask my gf....
for all we know, she is your other personality.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 21:59   #81
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Well, severe depression (with manic aspects). A few severe phobias wich include paranoid states.

Now, about those neurotic behaviors.
I like to keep my keyboard and mouse clean (VERY CLEAN, I clean my mouse before I use it and afterwards). I drink from the same glass (varying liquids) until someone puts it into the dishwasher. That someone isn't going to be me. My remote is broken due several moving parts in it which I found good to dabble with. I use three alarm clocks even if I've ALWAYS woken up because of the first one. I rarely take tha last bus I would make it with, I take the second last one and arrive fifteen minutes early. I hate it when people leave the vacuum cleaner on and pull the plug off (resulting in it starting vacuum when I push the plug in) and use the auto-pull for the plug (automatically pulls the wire in), and constantly whine about these things. Also, I tend to have a very strict order of things in my room - if someone has been there, I'll notice it. It's not necessarily clean though. As KaneEd, I have my cell and buss ticket and such in my left pocket, my keys in right, and wallet in right back. Silly me, I constantly check that I haven't lost them: it applies to all items I carry with me, that's why I don't use a backpack. I look into my bag every half a hour or so to see it's all there.

I could take a long time telling about my selfstudy on my phobias, delusions, and mania, but that'd just be poo. I've never analyzed the neurotics though.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 22:00   #82
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I like to stalk people I meet on the Internet and I like hiding in dark places.

Why do you never answer back? Is it because you don't like me?
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:12   #83
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I fear slugs and snails.

I have a strong imagination, which seems linked with my "fiddling" of things (pen tops and stuff, if you put a pack of cards in my hand I become a shuffling device).

I am an utter control freak; I have a tendency toward thinking others inept and dislike/occasionally fear giving up control to others in situations where my life could be endangered by carelessness (driving cars and the like). Similarly, I enjoy asserting my authority upon others, though not in the petty authority sense - it's more a psychological thing.

If my hands are dirty, I like to wash them as soon as possible. This isn't really a hygeine thing, I just don't like the feel of dirt on my hands.

Like midge5, I 'appreciate' multiples of 5. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9 just don't cut it, thanks.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:41   #84
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

i get stupidly scared of horror movies and every time i hear a small sound in my room i dont recognise i have to sit up in my bed to check theres not a monster
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:43   #85
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Amongst quite a few things ...

I regularly think i'm being watched. I get a very strong compulsion that there are video cameras behind mirrors i'm looking in. It's so bad that i regularly check behind the mirror to "make sure" (even in my own flat when i've been in all day since the last time i checked and as such no covert government crack spy squads could have placed a camera etc). The feeling is worse when i'm in non-home surroundings (friends home/work etc) but it's still bad/irritating enough at home (home being the flat ... my parents house is classed in the same category as friends/work places).

Like i say ... it's just one of a few mental problems i have :shrug:
I have a 'mirror thing' too, but its nowhere near as bad as it used to be (ie I only get the feeling once a month or so now). When I was a kid we used to do the whole 'telling horror stories' thing, and someone told a story about how there was a witch who could come out of the mirror and steal your soul, and if you looked into the mirror for over 20 minutes between midnight and 1am, you'd see her appear behind you. Since then I've had a kind of phobia where I dont like looking into the mirror for too long at night (there was also another incident a few years ago which made this worse, when I looked into the mirror while high and saw my face changing in bizarre ways).
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:45   #86
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

thanks nod, youve ****ed me up about mirrors with that story.

(im the kind of person who wont say candyman at a mirror 5 times or whatever out of fear)
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:47   #87
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I believe there are things that live in the dark and the only way I notice them is by the sounds they make at night.
.
I sometimes feel the compulsion to check my wardrobes etc before bed just to make sure theres noone in them, but I dont hear sounds or anything.
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Unread 30 Apr 2004, 23:53   #88
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
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you're all ****ing mad
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Unread 1 May 2004, 00:30   #89
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Heh, this thread is ace.

I used to be a kleptomaniac, well I suppose I still am but I've reigned it in as I've matured and realised that it hurts other people and is likely to end me up in prison or something. Don't really know why it happens, could be that it was an attention thing when I was younger, but I don't get why it hasn't gone away now I don't feel the need to impress anyone, and I get the urge to do it just to see if I can pull it off.

Also like KaneED I keep things in certain pockets but I keep telling myself it's because I don't have to fumble around when I have lots of bags.

I seem to chastise myself a lot in my mind about situations I've been in that have gone wrong because of my ineptness or stupidity. Sometimes I imagine beating the shit out of one of the people involved and go into a sort of half trance where I mumble what I'm thinking and my whole body goes tense. My legs and arms flinch as if I was acting out the things in my head, and when I realise what I'm doing I feel a bit daft.
No idea why or how it started or what I can do to stop it, thankfully when it happens in public hardly anyone notices.

Also my friend who's an autistic therapist reckons I'm slightly autistic, but I put it down to the fact that I spent years not wanting to talk to anyone and I was raised by people who just don't talk to each other the way a lot of people do.

TomKat was right earlier in what he said about people on the internet and mental illness, I've seen conversations about this turn into conversations with people virtually boasting about how much medication they're on.

Oh yeah and paranoia :/ When I'm out I think people are watching me. I'm afraid that it shows some kind of superiority complex, otherwise why would I think anyone would want to watch me, I'm nothing out of the ordinary.

This post is a bit long, sorry. For all of the above I've not really tried to find a way of 'treating' them, I just cope with them as they don't happen too often, you just have to keep yourself occupied that's all.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 12:40   #90
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I hate heights. Anything over the height of say, a 2 story house, and I feel like shitting myself. I'm not as bad with hegihts now, since my previous job involved me working on the 9th floor of an office block, where I had to take the elevator every day (I also dont feel secure in elevators).Still aint a big fan of them though. I feel much worse when I don't feel secure (on scaffolding, and that sort of thing). People usually don't believe me when I say Im scared of heights, they think it's ironic 'cause Im nearly 2 metres tall.

gits.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 13:00   #91
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
Noisy and messy eaters. People who crunch, chew with their mouth open, bite the fork, slurp, talk, lick their lips too much.

I can remember a time when none of this bothered me, but somehow, over the years it's got gradually worse to the point where if I'm eating in company, I'm thinking more about blocking them out (and therefore focusing on every sound they make) than anything else. It's progressing beyond sound now to the point where I don't like to see an eating mouth moving. Family christmasses are probably the worst.

It's contagious too. Some people who are aware I am like this find themselves agreeing and joining the "mental eating" club. Then they blame me; "I would never have noticed if it hadn't been for you."

I'm torn between forcing myself to accept it and stop being such a loony, and my dream of a world where everyone eats alone in sound-proof cubicles

this one gets me as well, had forgotten about it there, i have been known to have to walk out of a room where people are eating because i can hear them and i just want to scream at them to be quiet , i cant do anything about it either, and i have been like this for years, sometimes i get paranoid about wether other people are like that, and hate me for being a noisy eater as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1-X
I see roadrunner's avatar as a dolphin on a surfboard

eeek!

also, back to my first one, i havent done anything about it, as i dont think its that bad
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Unread 1 May 2004, 13:05   #92
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

mmm I was laid in bed last night when it just came to me that I'd spelt 'reined' wrong in my last post and I had the urge to get up and correct it. :/

[edit] My girlfriend hates the mouth noises too, can't bear to sit with people who do it.
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Unread 1 May 2004, 13:38   #93
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Keys and phone both in right pocket, wallet in back pocket, pens and loose change go in my left pockets. Nothing ever goes in my back left pocket EXCEPT a picture of Jesus i stole from D[ou]GAL's mums house (Ravishers brother).

Also, about the multiples of four, I experience the same thing. If I do a little annoying twitch (like flex my big toe) on my rigth side, i HAVE to do it on my right side until the sides are equal. This applies to nearly everything I do. Even if I do it when i wake up, it'll bug me all day till I "balance" things out. This applies to any little niggle, scratch, wink, poke, or any "feel" sensation I have in my normal situation.

When I copy a section of text or something on a computer, I keep thinking there is something on my right hand (mouse hand) until I paste it again when the thought leaves me. When I'm walking down the street I count the lampposts. Every time the pavement drops (for example, out side someones driveway) I imagine a line or a blade or something that goes from the road up rampish thing, and then down at the next one, on and on till I reach my destination. When I'm talking to people, I can conciously feel my toes squirming in my feet - not due to fear, but to type the words I'm saying on an imaginary keyboard or a phone (text message style). I blame IRC.

I also can't work the day without a "song in my head" - I seem to be able to move from one song to another, and always keep moving - if the music in my head stops, I get bored very easily and give up working. I blame Winamp.

Err.. thats about it. Other than the occasional desire to pick up sharp objects and jam them in peoples faces, and the constant temptation to sit in a room of silent people and just should "YYAAAAHHOOOOO!!!" at the top of my voice while standing on a table, and then sit down and carry on in silence (exam times are the worst).

On the subject of exams, any of you who are doing/have done exams - did you ever "stiff up" at the end of exams? half my male friends say its true, the other half deny the whole thing. Your views?
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Unread 3 May 2004, 23:12   #94
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
i think he may have been getting at the fact that daddy long legs dont sting so it must just be a massive spider.

(for all i know they do sting though, im not a bloody animalologist, ive just never heard of it)
The Daddy Long-Legs or Crane-Fly, as it is also known, actually has the most deadly venom of all known animals. Its venom is, in fact, more potent than that of the Black Widow spider. Whether this is gender-based, I am not sure, but I am aware that they pose no threat to humans as their fangs and too small to penetrate our skin. It is, however, deadly and always fatal to smaller creatures whos skin is less thick than ours. If you get a Daddy Long-Legs land on a graze or place where you have lost several layers of your skin and it has not yet begun healing, I would kill it as soon as possible.

On another (more on-topic) note, I have a fear of heights (which is strange as I am studying pilot training and love flying, but there you go!). The truth of the matter is, inside a building, inside a lift, inside something stable I am fine - this includes an aeroplane. However, put me on a hill, on a ladder, on a cliff, on an escalator, on some particularly steep or high or steep AND high stairs and I will shut down. I will not be able to move. I will go crazy/ If anybody tries to move me I will attack them. I will cry - completely break down. My heart beat will become extreme, I will sweat profusely and I will be there, on my hands and knees, shaking all over and suddenly the urge to jump will come. Luckily I always manage to pull myself back from this point, but I have gotten there before, and it isn't funny.

I actually had councelling to try to help rid me of this odd case of vertigo. It worked to a point, but nowhere near as well as I'd hoped. In truth you need to be determined. It all comes down to familiarity. I could never get into my loft (attic) before. It is one of these where you use a step ladder then you have to turn around and push yourself into the loft with your arms, sitting on the top with your legs dangling through the hole. It took me a long time, but through sheer determination I overcame this particular fear. They say familiarity breeds contempt, but they fail to mention that unfamiliarity breeds fear - fear of the unknown. In my case, I actually fear my own ability to remain in-balance when on these high places. It is a self-confidence issue. When I was young (very young) I had a problem with my balance. I would fall over constantly. I could not walk without falling over every two or three steps. I finally got over this (what turned out to be a) hip problem with physiotherapy, but it took me until I was 16 to be able to walk straight without requiring my full concentration on it. Of course it was all in my head. I had nothihng physically wrong with me, but that didn't matter. It would require full concentration on how i was walking to be able to walk straight, but obviously, as I am sure most of you know, when you are trying to walk in a certain fashion you actually walk unrealistically - you may have little vertical motion, or your legs may not move as a normal persons legs would. This is because it is impossible to walk if you have to think about walking.

This only added to the problem. I would concentrate on how I was walking, see that I was walking abnormally, and so concentrate even harder. My councelling didn't do anything to help this - I had to cure myself. I realised that it was all in my head and so, now I am fine. I am confident that my insecurity regarding my stability when up high has something to do with my previous inability to walk where I wanted to without full and complete concentration, and has developed into a phobia in its own right. I am beating it though, but it is taking time. As my confidence in my ability to tackle high places grows, so my fear subsides.

Hope you enjoyed my tale,

Goodbye.
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Unread 4 May 2004, 00:26   #95
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
i have to set my alarm clock at a minute past the hour or whatever, i cant have it on a regular time cant think of anything apart from that one
I do that too... if i have to be up at 7:00 either i go for 7:03 or 6:59 or something like that
im so ****ed in the head i should be locked up by now
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Unread 4 May 2004, 00:28   #96
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Exclamation Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why do you never answer back? Is it because you don't like me?
You never answer any of my posts, you hypocritical ****.
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Unread 4 May 2004, 00:52   #97
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I have an unreasonable fear of wasps.

I ran out of the drill hall a few month back whilst on parade infront of the CSM because one hovered before my face.

I think it comes from getting stung by one when a child in Australia. It made me really ill and now I'm terrified of it happening again.
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Unread 4 May 2004, 00:55   #98
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Question Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I'll protect you from the wasps, as long as you protect me from the spiders.

Deal?
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Unread 4 May 2004, 01:26   #99
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
You never answer any of my posts, you hypocritical ****.
That's because most of them never make any sense to them and I think that if I just pretend I understand them but am too great to reply to them nobody will notice that I'm pretty dumb
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Unread 4 May 2004, 15:39   #100
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Re: What psychological oddities do you have?

I have 2 oddities really...

The 1st which I have now grown out of (but used to affect me when I was little), was that if i turned around (eg. 360 degrees over a period of time), I would then have to turn back the opposite way the same amount or it would feel odd. Its like having an imaginary rope around you that gets tight if you keep turning round the same way.

The 2nd still affects me today in a big way. I am very claustrophobic. By very, I mean to a rediculous extent. Lifts are a no no, but then they can be to a lot of people. I have not been to a cinema for 8 years+ because they are dark and enclosed. I even have difficulty on trains with glass windows because the doors close and you cant open them. I always look for the emergency hammer on a train cabin so I could 'get out' if i felt the need. Last time I flew was about 5 yrs ago, and I was prescribed anxiety suppressants to stop me going into one mid flight. Even last week, I burst into tears in the middle of a carwash because it had automated doors that closed on either end when I was in it.

As for where it came from, I can't pin point it. I know it has definately got worse over time. When I was little I disliked encloused spaces, but obviously now it has got to the point where I panic and go mad inside them. I can't recall any bad experience within an enclosed space either, all I know is that its definately got worse as I have gotten older.

See what you make of that then.

[Edit] Forgot to add the bit about where I think it came from [/Edit]
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