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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 20:55   #1
fam
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Planetarion Support Team

This game is dependant on its players. The more players in this game - the more fun it is. What I don't understand is how the players can keep putting up with this support team. I agree with multihunting and anti-cheating since the main goal of these are to make the game more enjoyable for the players. However, when legit players suffer from the multihunters actions, then its going to far. How many people have had problems with the support team? Here is what happened to me.

First of all, I'm in no way an extremely hardcore player. Infact I'm more noob than the average. I've been having a fairly unfortunate round, never able to hold over 300 roids for more than 5 ticks. I think I've been under 200 roids the past 3 weeks. Anyways - last night my alliance had some incomings and we sorted them. I sent a defence fleet along with my ally m8 to cover one incoming.

My ally m8's account got closed at some point before the landing. Apparently he allowed his GF to create an account on his computer therefore he broke the rules and a multihunter closed his account. Fair? yes. The problem is that when his account was closed, his ships he sent to defend with mine were automatically recalled. I did not get any notice of this and I, a perfectly legit player, ended up landing with the expectations of my ally's ships to be there and I happened to lose quite alot of ships because of this. Fair? No.

I thought it was no big deal since its logical that I would recieve compensation. So I went and talked to the people in #multihunters thinking it wouldnt be difficult to maybe replace my ships or resources (keep in mind, I lost ships from my roiding fleet, this event rendering me unable to attack for days until I rebuilt). I state my case and low and behold I recieve no sympathy.

Keep in mind, I'm a fairly new player (2 rounds) and this is the first time I've had to deal with the support team.

[ 02:27:15 ] <fam> I was defending a planet with someone who's account was closed - pre calculated, closed planets ships didnt land - I lose ships, do I get any sort of compensation?
[ 02:29:27 ] <+Fiery> that happened today?
[ 02:29:31 ] <fam> not only that - they were stolen
[ 02:29:33 ] <fam> yes
[ 02:29:50 ] <+Fiery> coords?
[ 02:29:57 ] <fam> of me?
[ 02:30:17 ] <+Fiery> yes
[ 02:30:22 ] <fam> *:*:*
[ 02:31:57 ] <fam> I don't understand how you can have no regard for a planet that's currently depending on another planet that you suspect needs to be closed
[ 02:32:13 ] <+Fiery> which planet that was closed?
[ 02:32:20 ] <fam> *:*:*
[ 02:33:39 ] <+Fiery> Well, fam, I don't understand why people can't follow the rules.
[ 02:33:55 ] <fam> Me either, but what does that have to do with what happened to me?
[ 02:33:58 ] <+Fiery> I can't replace the ships. I don't have that access.
[ 02:34:17 ] <+Fiery> The other planet didn't follow the rules, fam.
[ 02:34:32 ] <fam> so the one that does suffers? can you justify this for me?
[ 02:34:53 ] <fam> Maybe you guys should be a tad more careful in when you decide to close a planet
[ 02:35:11 ] <fam> who does have access to replace my ships?
[ 02:35:26 ] <+Fiery> I don't select the times that they choose to misbehave, fam.
[ 02:35:39 ] <+Fiery> Cin or Marv or Appoco
[ 02:35:46 ] <fam> once again, I must ask why that has anything to do with what happened to me
[ 02:36:00 ] <fam> are you trying to avoid the blame?
[ 02:36:30 ] <+Fiery> fam, it's not my fault that your mate didn't follow the rules.
[ 02:36:43 ] <+Fiery> nor am I going to go check what his ships are doing
[ 02:37:28 ] <+Fiery> anyone that does not follow rules that are stated quite clearly on the overview can expect to be closed at any time.
[ 02:37:43 ] <+Fiery> Yes, it's annoying and inconvenient for you
[ 02:37:57 ] <fam> Lets stop talking about what happened to his planet
[ 02:38:03 ] <fam> its not important
[ 02:38:56 ] <fam> rather, you could give me a suggestion as to what I should do
[ 02:39:38 ] <+Fiery> I told you to talk to cin, marv or appoco
[ 02:39:45 ] <+Fiery> they are the only ones that can replace them
[ 02:40:29 ] <fam> I really don't think you care that much - how about telling me when they are usually online?
[ 02:41:54 ] <+Fiery> marv should be around any time now
[ 02:42:09 ] <+Fiery> I don't know about appoco since he's on holiday
[ 02:42:10 ] <fam> thank you
[ 02:42:15 ] <+Fiery> yw

I was fairly upset. Yet I think this is completely unfair to me. A completely legit player losing his own fleet just because someone is suspected of cheating? The funny thing is, my ally m8's account was reopened shortly after with an apology after he explained his own case. I however, did not even receive any sort of apology or sympathy.

Anyways, after awhile - I talked to my HC about this and eventually I was able to catch Marv. I was still expecting to receive some sort of compensation, or even an apology at the least. To no avail:

[ 12:53:44 ] * Now talking in #MultiHunters
[ 12:54:25 ] <fam> Marv?
[ 12:59:31 ] <+Marv> fam the answer is no.
[ 01:00:00 ] <fam> Great - your losing a paying costumer.
[ 01:00:10 ] <+Marv> im sorry but i cant create a double standard.
[ 01:00:19 ] <fam> because your to lazy to correct a simple mistake
[ 01:00:59 ] <+Marv> no
[ 01:01:16 ] <+Marv> becaise if i fix it for you and no one else i will upset alot of people and thus make a double standard
[ 01:01:47 ] <fam> so why do you guys so blatantly close planets w/o regard for other planets?
[ 01:02:13 ] <+Fiery> why do the planets we close have such a blatant disregard for the rules?
[ 01:03:11 ] <fam> its a shame - I was going to get my friends to start playing - the game needs more north americans
[ 01:03:50 ] <fam> but with this kindof support - they will probably end up getting just as frusterated
[ 01:04:34 ] <+Fiery> fam, I understand that you are upset because you lost ships
[ 01:04:55 ] <+Fiery> but do you really want us to look the other way on someone who is cheating?
[ 01:05:18 ] <fam> this so called 'cheaters' account, wasnt it reopened?
[ 01:05:37 ] <+Fiery> did you talk to him?
[ 01:05:49 ] <fam> yes of course, I was defending with him, he's in my alliance
[ 01:06:00 ] <+Fiery> Then you know what happened
[ 01:06:00 ] <fam> when you closed his account, his ships were recalled
[ 01:06:25 ] <fam> I honestly don't see how this matters with what I'm talking about
[ 01:07:07 ] <fam> you keep trying to justify your own actions instead of trying to help me with my problem
[ 01:08:04 ] <+Fiery> and you don't seem to listen to what I'm saying
[ 01:08:55 ] <fam> whatever, you guys obviously don't care about your own paying customers
[ 01:09:12 ] <fam> no point in continuing this
Session Close: Mon Aug 14 13:09:19 2006

The most annoying thing I found is that they would not answer this question: <fam> so why do you guys so blatantly close planets w/o regard for other planets?

I am extremely dissappointed in the way the PA Team treats its own players. No wonder the # of players playing is always low. I don't see how anyone can continue playing this game with the way these guys treat the players. They don't even apologize for a completely legits players misfortunes caused by them. I won't be purchasing anymore credits for planetarion - nor will I tell give good comments on this game. Alot of people spend alot of time on this game and when the admins shun people that, it is completely unfair.

If the goal of multihunters is to frusterate legit players so much that they end up quiting the game, great job. Add me your tally.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:15   #2
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I won't comment on the response from the support team as its not my place to do so, other than to say that the events are truly unfortunate. However, I think there is room for discussion on a technical solution to prevent this. For example - if a planet is closed any planets with fleets going to the same locations with the same eta should get a pamail indicating that a planet they were attacking/defending with. While this won't fix all cases its a definite start.

The reason fleets are recalled is that the planet in closed will not be able to login to recall them - one option to slightly increase safety would be to change them to fake missions rather than doing a full recall.

I think my two suggestions combined would at the very least alleivate the problem, though it will not remove it completely.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:23   #3
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I've brought up this issue before and was brisked away with the following comment: "If you are so stupid that you accept cheaters into your alliance, then your members deserve to lose their roids when they get closed"

I honestly think that the quote itself says everything about how crap the current system is.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:35   #4
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

ANY planet, who will by association have a negative consequence based on a closure of another planet SHOULD have it's fleet recalled also, as to not hose the defending planet. ANY planets with interaction should be immediatly reset so they have no outcome at the closed planet... this seems fairly simple and logical to me, can't imagine letting this guys planet get f*cked because they closed someone else, if that's seriously what happened, the MH crew needs to get it's heads out of it's asses.....this guy happened to be in the same alliance or whatever, simply answered a defense call......... and got screwed, this needs fixed

[ 01:00:10 ] <+Marv> im sorry but i cant create a double standard.
[ 01:00:19 ] <fam> because your to lazy to correct a simple mistake
[ 01:00:59 ] <+Marv> no
[ 01:01:16 ] <+Marv> becaise if i fix it for you and no one else i will upset alot of people and thus make a double standard


*THIS IS NOT creating a double standard...it's NOT paying attention to detail... YOU SHOULD be resetting any planet who will have interaction with a closed planet
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:41   #5
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Erm, Firstly I would just like to point out that this is a Multihunting Department issue not Support Team. The Support Team have nothing to do with this issue and were not involved at all in any respect.

These logs are taken from #multihunters and therefor I would apreciate it if you did not direct such comments towards The Support Team. Should you wish to take this up with someone of the relevant department then I would kindly ask you to direct it towards Appocomaster or Smudge - the MultiHunting Head and Deputy repsecitvly.

We are aware of this issue but at the moment are not in a position do do anythign about it. Therefor to prevent double standards and avoiding the whole situation of "well you did it for him so do it for me whine whine whine" it is to leave it open to affect everyone thus in a perverted logic, making it fair.

I understand your fustration at this, however to suddenly turn around and make game edits will bring about an onslought of people claiming it happened to them so why wont we fix it. In doing this it will cause even more public uproar.

Kal's above suggestions make alot of sense and will be considered for the coders for future rounds.

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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:46   #6
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
ANY planet, who will by association have a negative consequence based on a closure of another planet SHOULD have it's fleet recalled also, as to not hose the defending planet. ANY planets with interaction should be immediatly reset so they have no outcome at the closed planet... this seems fairly simple and logical to me, can't imagine letting this guys planet get f*cked because they closed someone else, if that's seriously what happened, the MH crew needs to get it's heads out of it's asses.....this guy happened to be in the same alliance or whatever, simply answered a defense call......... and got screwed, this needs fixed
But that means the person who needed the defence gets screwed - so do we need to recall his attackers as well? It starts to get silly - I think my solutions are simpler and will resolve msot of the issues.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 21:58   #7
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

if it makes you feel any better, i was swindled out of ships and roids due to the target planet being closed and having his ships that i knew were out being recalled home too!
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:01   #8
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
if it makes you feel any better, i was swindled out of ships and roids due to the target planet being closed and having his ships that i knew were out being recalled home too!
In which case maybe people with fleets heading towards a closed planet should also be pamailed? I was going to suggest that the fleets should be converted to fake fleets, but I think thats going to far in the interests of safety.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:03   #9
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Marv, even after you've read my post you still refuse to ATLEAST apologize for what is causing me to quit this game?

I'm sorry - I didnt know that the support team and the multihunter team were not connected. Once again, I've only been playing for 2 rounds. Regardless, if the multihunters don't care about the players enough to simply apologize for something that they've done to a legit paying planet, why should the players care bout the game?
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:08   #10
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by fam
Marv, even after you've read my post you still refuse to ATLEAST apologize for what is causing me to quit this game?
I don't want to sound stuck up but I probalby will end up doing so.

Personally I do not feel an appology is needed, since you are choosing to leave for a reason that affects everyone and not you specifically. Secondly, if one was to be made on this matter, it is not my appology to make nor am I the one to make it on behalf of the department involved.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:28   #11
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
In which case maybe people with fleets heading towards a closed planet should also be pamailed? I was going to suggest that the fleets should be converted to fake fleets, but I think thats going to far in the interests of safety.
no, closed planets attacking fleets should be frozen and defending fleets keep going

also GIVE ME MY GODDAMN ROIDS AND SHIPS :/
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:28   #12
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
I don't want to sound stuck up but I probalby will end up doing so.

Personally I do not feel an appology is needed, since you are choosing to leave for a reason that affects everyone and not you specifically. Secondly, if one was to be made on this matter, it is not my appology to make nor am I the one to make it on behalf of the department involved.
affects everyone because of your(pa-team or whatever the hell team)'s mistake..........................
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:30   #13
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
no, closed planets attacking fleets should be frozen and defending fleets keep going

also GIVE ME MY GODDAMN ROIDS AND SHIPS :/
what if the defense fleets were part of the abuse though?
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:35   #14
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I am actually disgusted by this thread. Not so much by the fact you won't do the decent thing in giving fam resources (creating a double standard ... how many times in a round does something like this happen?) - but more the pompous nature of the people in the higher echelon of PA. If I was in a shop and someone spoke to me like that it'd take all my self restraint not to slap them repeatedly, or at least try to make sure they get sacked for being twats.

But then this kind of behaviour is exactly what jolt would encourage
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:44   #15
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt
I am actually disgusted by this thread. Not so much by the fact you won't do the decent thing in giving fam resources (creating a double standard ... how many times in a round does something like this happen?) - but more the pompous nature of the people in the higher echelon of PA. If I was in a shop and someone spoke to me like that it'd take all my self restraint not to slap them repeatedly, or at least try to make sure they get sacked for being twats.

But then this kind of behaviour is exactly what jolt would encourage
I have to agree here, the standards of late have been lowly, and not improving exactly. Maybe Jolt should learn their volunteers something about customer relations.

I've been giving lections in customer relations before so if anyone needs a crash course Im here to help
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 22:55   #16
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv
Personally I do not feel an appology is needed, since you are choosing to leave for a reason that affects everyone and not you specifically.
Wrong. It's for a reason that affects a handful of people, not everyone. Not everyone are defending or attacking with planets that gets closed. I don't see the problem here. fam's loss should be reimbursed because his loss was out of his control (unless he jgp'ed the target, but that's not expected of him anyway). It was the MH who closed the guys planet who made fam loose his ships, not anyone else.

No need to screw up someones round because of others mistakes.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 23:15   #17
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Talking about double standards...

When I ( 2 rounds ago I think ) attacked a planet based on a FA I got on him by a m8 which was under attack by him, his fleets were suddenly moved back to his base.

I then lost shitloads of value, and didnt cap the ships I was sposed to cap (from a returning fleet)

I then contacted PA Team, and I got the ships I lost back, and I was given the ships from my Fleet catch.

I did also recieve the roids which I should have gotten.

To me it seems like NOT doing the same to fam would be making double standards.


PLZ, make use of common sence. Let not honest players be punished by those who cheat. NO ONE will think it would be wrogn if u gave fam his ships back, or his resources back.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 23:32   #18
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I decided against saying this in my previous post, but now that you've confirmed it...

... if fam's irc nick was elviz, or .... wishmaster ... or, don't know, anyone in 1up, then this mess would have been sorted out ages ago - with pa team kissing ass bigtime. Alas, fam isn't famous
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 23:43   #19
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Oh, and as for a sensible option to counter this problem in the future... instead of trying to think up big fancy in-game automatic opitions that will probably make PA crash repeatedly at some point, how about .... you only let people with at least an average IQ into the MH team. Then when they close a planet (once a day?) they can spend, oh I don't know, 5 seconds checking for any fleet movements involved. Then depending on what they see, engage some of that brain power and act on it appropriately. Unfortunately, I think the current set up fails at the first stage.
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Unread 14 Aug 2006, 23:45   #20
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

One small comment in relation to wishmasters statement. One thign we did going into this round was go in withthe basic principle that an admin having to do something is generally bad as it invovles human judgement and hence the possibility of a lack in consitency. So basically while some people may have had different experiances in previous rounds its not directly relevant to this - other than if they want to suggest that this is how the situation should be dealt with in general.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 00:12   #21
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Does anyone, other than Marv, believe I should not receive my ships back because its not fair to others who have had this problem before? Is there even anyone else who have had this problem before? There is not much time left in this round anyway - the planet that was under question wasnt even cheating, and was cleared/reopened. I however, completely legit, suffer at the fault of an MH's decision. Yet the reason to reimburse me is to prevent double standards? Very unfair.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 00:39   #22
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

it have nothing to do with duoble standards, it have always been screwups made with closed planets and admins goes in and fix the mess manually.

here the closed planet even got reopent so the mess is even bigger give the dude his ships back or run a calc of the battle and go from there, its a planets that lost roids over this too.

its no biggie for you guys.. say sorry to the guy and sort his fleets.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 01:01   #23
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Personally, I think I'd be pissed at the alliance mate who got themselves closed - if only temporarily. After all - the overview clearly states "If you are playing on the same IP address as someone else, please come to #multihunters and inform a multihunter of the situation " - and has done all round. Clearly, the planet in question didn't do this.

While this is not your fault, that doesn't change the fact that you lost your ships due to the direct result of your ally mate doing something that was clearly wrong.

It's all very well to blame PA Team, or the multihunters for your lose of ships, but ultimately they too were just following the rules that are in place.

I think what this does hilight however, as suggested above, is the need to other planets that are directly affected by the closure of a planet and the recall of it's fleets notified of such a recall...ofc that doesn't help much if you've sent def fleets on the basis that they'd be ok, and then gone out or to bed or something and won't be awake/home before they land....but at least it would be a start.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 01:33   #24
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

The support team is the biggest shambles I've seen in a long time. If you make a mistake, or the game makes a mistake or even if someone else makes a mistake this should not under any circumstances affect anybody else's round unfairly. Its pure laziness. Big deal, you do it for free. I could work in a homeless shelter, spill the soup over and they'd all go hungry and die. I sure as hell wouldn't say "oh well, you can eat next round".

Reminds me of when PA went down the other week and a galmate of mine couldn't get online to pull his fleet. It was the games fault and there was no consideration for him due to the team's stubborness of not doing anything except sit in a chan with ops telling people what the construction time for xan is with priority 1.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 01:45   #25
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

While I think that perhaps you got shafted in losing your ships because your alliance mate was closed for not following the rules, and it does raise the issue of improvements as to what can be done in similar situations, I think that you over reacted a bit.

Reading the post with your copy/paste of conversation with MH, you come off confrontational, and rude yourself, far overreacting and going about it the wrong way. Instead of going into the room and explaining what happened and discussing the issue you come off as arguing with fiery when he said he couldn't help you, and was trying to help you out by telling you who could, you bash him and tell him you don't think he cares, which is one of the rudest things I've read in a while. Then when you talk to Marv you yell at him as well, and then insult them again instead of listening to them.

While I don't know the details of this closure, unless it was right before the landing tick, shouldn't you have known his account was closed, or have done a Jumpgate scan to make sure that the attacker didn't pull before landing?

I'm not defending the MH, and while I do think you got hosed, I do think you are partially responsible for putting blind trust in your alliance, and not having made sure that your defence would land as you predicted. If your buddy had recalled and not told you and you landed without him you would only be pissed at him.

I think the attitude you showed in your conversations with MH, and in writing this thread are in poor taste. It's best to calm down and make sure you're rational and calm before undertaking such a task as asking for compensation in being wronged, or you'll just come off like an ass like in this thread.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 02:04   #26
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

The problems with the account closure policy have partially been discussed in the Innocent until proven guilty thread. My thoughts on this are quite simple:

Accounts should not be closed until there is enough evidence for a full removal.

By closing a planet and having its fleets recalled problems such as the ones mentioned in this thread are being caused. Defence fleets go missing, attackers might have to deal with fleets they don't expect.

You are dealing with paying customers, accounts shouldn't be closed and reopened so easily. Planets should only be closed once the evidence is clear that the abuse is severe enough. If there are minor problems then the account owner should be contacted before anything else happens. Occasionally there may be a closure which is wrong, however this should not be the norm!
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 02:16   #27
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

JT, you are a HC, you probably put alot of time into this game. How good of a mood would you be in when you found you lost your roiding fleet because of a decision of someone, who is completely irrelevant to the situation, decided to make. How can you be polite in a situation like that? How can you not be angry when you lose ships because of someone else who's not even involved in the battle? Please qoute me where I overreacted because quite frankly, I think I restrained myself properly.

Have you read any of the replys to this thread? A numerous amount of them are 10x worse from my conversation with the MH staff.

Maybe if they apologized for my misfortunes, which has STILL yet to happen, even though they know they are at fault, I would've been more polite. They even refused to apologize. Does it really seem like they care about it to you?

Regardless, what does politeness have to do with anything? I deserve my ships back and they refuse. Do you think if I say please, they will give me them back? The whole point of this thread is not to be an asshole. Its to raise awareness of how messed up the system gets. Its to prevent something like this from happening again.

I didnt purchase credits for this game to have other people decide when I should lose ships. Maybe someone pays for your credits but quite frankly, I think anyone would be angry. Even an non-upgraded account. If you think I just posted this to be mean to the MH people, you're wrong. My atittude had nothing to do with them refusing my ships. And it shouldnt.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 02:38   #28
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by fam
How good of a mood would you be in when you found you lost your roiding fleet because of a decision of someone, who is completely irrelevant to the situation, decided to make.
I don't know about most people, but I don't send my roiding fleet on defence. I wouldn't be upset at MH for actually closing an account for not following the rules, I'd be upset at whoever broke the rule.
Quote:
How can you be polite in a situation like that? How can you not be angry when you lose ships because of someone else who's not even involved in the battle?
I can be polite because I know this is just a game and I don't let it get to me on that level. If I became so consumed by this game that I would get pissed off to the level you were at, I would seriously consider not playing and finding something less stressful (not saying that's what you should do, just saying that's what I would do).
Quote:
Please qoute me where I overreacted because quite frankly, I think I restrained myself properly.

[ 02:40:29 ] <fam> I really don't think you care that much
[ 01:00:19 ] <fam> because your to lazy to correct a simple mistake
[ 01:01:47 ] <fam> so why do you guys so blatantly close planets w/o regard for other planets?
[ 01:08:55 ] <fam> whatever, you guys obviously don't care about your own paying customers
[ 01:09:12 ] <fam> no point in continuing this.
I picked out some of the ruder comments for you to reflect on.
Quote:
Have you read any of the replys to this thread? A numerous amount of them are 10x worse from my conversation with the MH staff.
I've read the responses, but they aren't the ones who started this thread.
Quote:
Maybe if they apologized for my misfortunes, which has STILL yet to happen, even though they know they are at fault, I would've been more polite. They even refused to apologize. Does it really seem like they care about it to you?
Maybe if you apologized for your attitude towards them when confronting them on the issue they'd apologize for you getting screwed over.
Quote:
Regardless, what does politeness have to do with anything?
Politeness show's that you're being rational, and not just being rude.
Quote:
I deserve my ships back and they refuse. Do you think if I say please, they will give me them back?
Maybe, perhaps you should try.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 03:00   #29
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Well, I don't think there is a case at all here. Whatever happened to your friend who got closed, it is also your responsibility to ensure that your landing, attack or defence, is safe - either by jgp or news scan, or any other means, like in-gal contact, whatever else.

You obviously launched your fleet & forgot about it. You have no one else to blame for the loss of your ships, than yourself fam. It happened to me a few times too, to be unable to be back home early enough to check jgp at landing time. I lost ships, sometimes a good number of them. That is exactly the same situation. You were counting on the presence of someone, but that someone, for any other reason than being closed, could also have decided to recall his fleet. Who would have you blamed then?

Besides, I know how hard it can be to discuss with support, MH, or admin teams. But it is no reason to be that harsh. Things often come easier on a softer, more diplomatic tone. You have "explained" your case, but you didn't give any good reason for them to give you back your ships. Or you didn't post that.

Next time, if you still play, you'll know that scans are not made only to spend ressources, but to save ships too.

Edited for spelling.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 03:27   #30
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

The multi-team works for free.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 03:51   #31
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
Well, I don't think there is a case at all here. Whatever happened to your friend who got closed, it is also your responsibility to ensure that your landing, attack or defence, is safe - either by jgp or news scan, or any other means, like in-gal contact, whatever else.

You obviously launched your fleet & forgot about it. You have no one else to blame for the loss of your ships, than yourself fam. It happened to me a few times too, to be unable to be back home early enough to check jgp at landing time. I lost ships, sometimes a good number of them. That is exactly the same situation. You were counting on the presence of someone, but that someone, for any other reason than being closed, could also have decided to recall his fleet. Who would have you blamed then?

Besides, I know how hard it can be to discuss with support, MH, or admin teams. But it is no reason to be that harsh. Things often come easier on a softer, more diplomatic tone. You have "explained" your case, but you didn't give any good reason for them to give you back your ships. Or you didn't post that.

Next time, if you still play, you'll know that scans are not made only to spend ressources, but to save ships too.

Edited for spelling.
I think the bits about how he should have know everything that was going on are wrong as it is generally a DC who tells people where and when to send def ships so you quite often don't know exactly what is goinging on. If you have sent defence and go tyo bed in the knowldge it is safe no matter how long you sleep why should you be expected to get up and get a jgp. Also not everybody has reserched the ability to do jgps and sometimes there are not scanners around to do them for you. I also beleive that DCs although answerable to their HCs should not be entirly questionable by the people whoes fleets they are useing/who they are defending. All you should need is the assurance of a DC that either "they would be mad to land" or "your ships are safe" any thing goes wrong with the way a DC handles your fleets you should talk to a HC.

I agree that he perhapps should have been more civil with the MHs but can you blame him for being angry. I my self have got angry at people who posably did noy deserve it this round (and I would like to applogise for it).

also i beleive that fam should be compensated as in no way is it his falt that his alliance mat got closed nore should he be expeted to get online to check if they have been closed for cheating.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 03:55   #32
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
The multi-team works for free.
So do lots of people in all walks of life, working with anything from animals to kids to elderly people.
And things are in place to stop them making mistakes, and if they do make them, its dealt with properly.

And yes they work for free, but as kal pointed out, it looks damn good on a cv etc. So they do gain from it.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 03:56   #33
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I would think the simplest way to avoid ANY future problems with this would be to introduce a closure procedure akin to the Vacation Mode.

When an MH has made the decision that a planet should be closed, the players access should be removed from their account, all fleets flying should be allowed to continue to thier natural conclusion including prelaunched ones, no new launches should be accepted to the planet in question. edit The account should then be placed into Vacation Mode while a decission is reached. edit

I agree entirely with JT, that fam was confrontational in his approach. I myself felt little sympathy for him with regards to fiery and marv's responses in the logs. However, I can empathise with his anger and as such can see why he may have reacted as he did.

In reference to his second chat log:

[ 12:53:44 ] * Now talking in #MultiHunters
[ 12:54:25 ] <fam> Marv?
[ 12:59:31 ] <+Marv> fam the answer is no.

ask yourselves this, after that literal slap in the face "F Off" response when you joined the channel, would you have approached the rest of the conversation in a calm polite manner?

As for the return of fams' ships, quite frankly guys you shot yourselves in the foot when you reopened the "cheaters" account. By doing this you admitted that you had made a mistake and/or over reacted yourselves. As a result of this you clearly have only one choice, fix YOUR mistake!

p.s. Marv, how can your signature read thus;

Marv - Support Team Manager - #support
Marketing Manager
MultiHunter - #multihunters

and you write this;

Erm, Firstly I would just like to point out that this is a Multihunting Department issue not Support Team. The Support Team have nothing to do with this issue and were not involved at all in any respect.

as a member of both teams you are surely involving both teams by your presence?
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:02   #34
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

this is almost..just almost! as rude as closing someone for putting up some offencive banners

hmpf ^^
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:06   #35
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

And - freezing fleets till decission has been made - before fleets get recalled instantly to base is only thing which can work.

MHs just have to use common sence. this is no big problem really. It will not occure many times during a round, and can EASILLY be checked and fixed.

but then again..
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Quote:
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
<JC`> i sent him a msg saying Wishmaster 0wns, so he recalled
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:19   #36
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
And - freezing fleets till decission has been made - before fleets get recalled instantly to base is only thing which can work.
This would be fine if you thought a decision could be made within the tick, a player ought to have their opportunity to Defend their account edit (and this can't always be done imediately) edit , even if they don't get the opportunity to defend thier planet!
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:26   #37
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by equalizer
a player ought to have their opportunity to Defend their account, even if they don't get the opportunity to defend thier planet!
thats what the closure period is for, and why multihunters dont go straight to delete.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:27   #38
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
what if the defense fleets were part of the abuse though?
should be part of the invesigation, and if so, closed also

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv

We are aware of this issue but at the moment are not in a position do do anythign about it. Therefor to prevent double standards and avoiding the whole situation of "well you did it for him so do it for me whine whine whine" it is to leave it open to affect everyone thus in a perverted logic, making it fair.

Marv
it's not fair, the guy got screwed for playing within the rules, and your not correcting it, thats what is unfair. completely unfair. YOU ARE in a position to do something (the PA team) you ARE the ADMINS for this game ffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marv

I understand your fustration at this, however to suddenly turn around and make game edits will bring about an onslought of people claiming it happened to them so why wont we fix it. In doing this it will cause even more public uproar.

Marv
why would you making a screw up "right" bring a public uproar?
IF the investigation is done properly, then you should know exactly what planets are effected, and be able to correct any consequences to innocent players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
The multi-team works for free.
completely irrelevant, they decided to take the job, they have a responsability, regardless



PA owes this guy at the very least, an apology, he played within the rules of the game and got screwed for it, then got treated like a second class citizen on top of it. IF the MH team's investigation is thorough, they will know who exactly is effected, and who isn't. For an innocent planet to be penalised for something he had nothing to do with is completely freakin rediculous
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 04:37   #39
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Red face Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
thats what the closure period is for, and why multihunters dont go straight to delete.
Fair enough Phil^, I know they don't just delete accounts at a whim, but I was trying to make the point that freezing fleets pending a decision was not the best way to resolve the issue. Perhaps I could have worded it better first time.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 05:39   #40
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

lol, awesome...

another ****ed up decision made by MH team.
and that Marv got Marketing Manager in his sig is simply disgusting; clearly the right person for that job, well done.

anything apart from FULL compensation and an apology to fam is a slap in the face for every paying customer.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 07:39   #41
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

I'll take this opportunity to apologise on behalf of PATeam for the current closure mechanism (i.e. how the coded function works). This mechanism has been the same pretty much since the dawn of account closures, however that does not mean it is perfect. However, simply put its not sensibly possible for it to be perfect. We will however aim to review and redesign it for next round based on some of the ideas addressed in this thread so that thoose who are affected by closures are affected to a less degree.

On the subject of closure policies etc: Policies in all PA department are constantly reviewed as time allows. However in general we prefer not to change them during a round for reasons of consitency. I know in previous rounds we have had policy changes and even code changes during a round, but we recognise that generally speaking that is bad for the game so are really trying to avoid it where possible. Obviously if there is a critical issue we would still need to deal wth it.

This particular issue clearly affects a tiny proportion of the playerbase, BUT that said it can have highly servere effects. This is currently being discussed by PATeam, but I wouldn't go as far as saying tis being reviewed simply becuase its hard to review a department's policies when its Head is in Orkney (though we will of course be talking to the Deputy) For the moment I would reccomend that where possible people try to verify that people who should be joining them in a battle do still have their fleets present as planned.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 09:49   #42
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Regardless whether the PA team messud up what the golden rule of bussiness, the customer is always right especially if you messed up guys. If you apologise and stop being up your own arse marv he will play next round and pay to surely thats what you want?

be a man for christ sake
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 09:51   #43
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Also if he was in 1up or Exil would it change what would happen ,this thread would be blown even more out out proportion, sorry but im pretty sure you would sort ot out
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 09:54   #44
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Note : I started writing this last night and due to circumstances out of my control Im posting this morning; update for the posts made over night are at the bottom of the thread.

----

First of all, I'd like if a forum mod is reading this to change the topic from Support Team to Multihunting team as it has nothing to do with the Support Team.

Let me give you a typical scenario in the daily life of a Multihunter

a) JoeBloggs comes into #multihunters and says that x:y:z is a potential farmer
b) The multihunter then has a preliminary chat with Joe, getting information from him and any scans which they may have
c) The multihunter then investigates the planet and looks at the planet history
d) The multihunter then decides wether a case is to be opened against x:y:z
di) If the planet is to have a case created then the relevant information is stored
dii) If the planet is not to have a case created then the information is still logged
e) If the planet is to be closed then the planet is closed, along with full information stored and an email is sent to x:y:z saying that they have been closed.

Typically then x:y:z comes to #multihunters to plead there case, where the Multihunter which closed is talked to by x:y:z; if it seems that its a simple open / shut case only that multihunter is involved. Cases of ship farming for example however, which are more "complex" than the simpler cases cant be decided upon by the one multihunter, and the Deputy and/or Head of Department are bought into the equation as they have more experience in dealing with such cases.

With regards to what happens to people who are involved [by involved I mean having fleets being sent to the as defence / attack], there has been the same policy in place that the fleets are recalled and if someone else is reliant on them then we dont compensate them. It maybe harsh but after all this is a war game. If we were to compensate fleets in this matter then I know that within an hour there would be a flood of people wanting there fleets re-instated. And even if this rule was introduced at the beginning of a round that fleets would be recompensated, there simply isnt the time to go through every case, investigating each planet and the losses they may have suffered.

The Multihunting team is, at the moment, comprised of Appocomaster [Head], myself [Deputy], Cin, Marv, Fiery and Squidly. This may sound like a full team but it does get streched at time, which is why we cant investigate everything. And when we do see something we act upon it. With the current background which is affecting the MH Team [Appoco on holiday, Marv being AFK recently and myself trying to hold down a summer job] things are streched but thankfully Marvs back, Appocos back soon and Ive now got my own office at work so I can do both work and MH duties [note: if my boss is reading this I do it in my lunch hour!].

I would like to just take this chance just to remind you all of a few things about being a Multihunter

* Multihunters arn't allowed in alliances - this removes a large part of the aspect of the game for them as they must be in 1:1
* Multihunters do hunting for free - we dont get wages, all we get is a pat on the back from PA Team occasionally. Not even a box of chocolates at Christmas
* Multihunters do there work in there spare time and even during there work hours
* The bulk of work which MH's do is a thankless task - think DC'ing but on a basis of looking after 2200 planets instead of 40 or so.
* Multihunters arn't super heros - like everyone in the world we do make mistakes but we address them and sort them out where we can.

We try to police the game the best we can. If we could fufill everyones requests in the community then yes, that would be absolutly brilliant but we cant so we have to focus on things; would the community rather have less closures of cheats with more careful checking or closure and re-opening of planets?

----

Update for this morning:

The MH Team / PA Team are independant on alliance pressure; granted to some people this may appear as untrue, but its true; this is why neither PA or MH Teams are allowed to be in alliances, to avoid this happening. There is no bias towards or against a particular alliance.

If we went with the policy of waiting for enough evidence for closure, where should we draw the line and say right, this is what is needed for closure? We would get even more people coming to #multihunters saying x:y:z is farming, why arnt you doing anything about it, and probably getting more abusive as we go along [it happens even now.]. With the idea of having fleets still flying towards there target, then people would say that if they cant defend it they want to retal them and ofc if the attacking planet is closed then theres nothing they can do about it.

Again I wish to say that the Support Team has NOTHING to do with Multihunting or the Multihunting department, PLEASE can you address future posts as MH Team rather than Support. Im open for positive criticism from the community as I know that there are several parties involved who arn't too happy with the situation, but if your just going to flame / slander / pick apart posts I respectfully request you dont do so. If you also want to discuss this, feel free to drop me an email [[email protected]] and I'll do my best to get back to you
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 10:56   #45
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
With regards to what happens to people who are involved [by involved I mean having fleets being sent to the as defence / attack], there has been the same policy in place that the fleets are recalled and if someone else is reliant on them then we dont compensate them. It maybe harsh but after all this is a war game. If we were to compensate fleets in this matter then I know that within an hour there would be a flood of people wanting there fleets re-instated. And even if this rule was introduced at the beginning of a round that fleets would be recompensated, there simply isnt the time to go through every case, investigating each planet and the losses they may have suffered.
what a load of bullshit...... If it is in fact the policy to let perfectly honest players who had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CLOSURE OR THE OFFENSE to get hosed, then you all need to get your heads out of your asses and change that policy. No wonder we can't keep players in this game with garbage like that. Start paying attention to detail and being thorough. If your action effects some innocent planet you better damn well make sure all those ends are tied up so honest players don't get screwed in the process. Right now with this policy, your torching the hotel to capture the pickpocket....to hell with the rest of the guests...we got the pickpocket.... rediculous...

Don't throw this "we don't get paid to do this" crap at us.... you accepted the position, therefore you took on the responsability to do the job...so do it right, instead of half assed. If you aren't up to the task, don't do it. Why do something if you aren't able to do it right? I realize the job takes a lot of investigation, and time....again, do it right, or don't do it at all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge
* Multihunters do hunting for free - we dont get wages, all we get is a pat on the back from PA Team occasionally. Not even a box of chocolates at Christmas
* Multihunters do there work in there spare time and even during there work hours
* The bulk of work which MH's do is a thankless task - think DC'ing but on a basis of looking after 2200 planets instead of 40 or so.
* Multihunters arn't super heros - like everyone in the world we do make mistakes but we address them and sort them out where we can.
again, cry me a river......... IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE MANPOWER TO DO THE JOB PROPERLY, RECRUIT MORE PEOPLE. Hire someone to ADMINISTER the MH team. This person doesn't need to do the actual multi hunting. He/she needs to SUPERVISE, and monitor the work of the MH's working in the department. This person also needs to have final call on closures should any dispute arise, much like an appeal works.

step 1. The MH hunts, investigates, and makes a recommendation to the Sr MH(s)
step 2. The Sr MH reviews the case, either moves forward with action, tells the MH to investigate more, or closes the case for lack of evidence. Very much like a police officer makes an arrest then turns the case over to the prosecuting attorney for formal charges/prosecution. You should have atleast 3 Sr. MH's, to review these cases, and thats all they do. They scan the case for the neccesarty points, They make a decision, and move on to the next one.
Finally, the team leader is there to organise, supervise and assist the team members. In addition, this person needs to have the stones to say no to the whiners when they come running in with their violins playing their sad sad songs. If you can't find someone to do this, give me a call for christ sake. I'm not going to lose a minute of sleep telling a cheater to piss off when he's cold busted.

Team leader
3 Sr. MH's
4 MH's per Sr MH
16 ppl, if we can't find that in 2000 players.. then it's pretty sad, if more are needed, then someone needs to get on the damn recruiting train and take care of business. People PAY for this product, Jolt and the PA crew have a responsability to administer the game properly and do things right, instead of always having some lame ass excuse why things can't be done right.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 11:07   #46
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Maybe it's just me - but I still think the blame belongs squarely at the feet of the alliance mate who was closed.

If instead of being closed, he had recalled his fleet (either accidentally or otherwise) would it be fair to blame anyone else for his fleets not being there to support fam...of course not. Now in this case, instead of directly recalling his fleet, he did something that resulted in his planet being temporarily closed, and his fleet recalled....so he wasn't directly responsible for the fleet recall - but he was directly responsible for the closure of his own planet....either way the end result is the same - that is unfortunately fam lost his ships....is that fair to fam - no I agree it's not - but again I say place the blame where it clearly belongs....

In my opinion - people seem to have lost sight of the fact that the whole situation could have been avoided - had the closed planet simply informed the multihunters that he wanted to create an account for his gf to play, on the same IP that he played from. If he had done so - he wouldn't have been closed - and then fam wouldn't have lost his ships....simple.

Oh and btw - I can't understand how fam can say he agrees with the concept of the multihunters job - but then go on to say that they shouldn't do that job if it effects other players - I'd imagine if they tried to play by those rules - they'd never close anyone - no matter what they did.

I still think the main thing this situation highlights is the need for others directly affected by the closure of a planet (those being defend by, defending with (same eta), or attacking said planet and probably also the alliance), need to be notified that the recall of fleets has occurred.

Although I do like the suggestion above of closed planets effectively being put into an enforced vacation mode, where the actions of launched/pre-launched fleets are allowed to continue, but the user couldn’t access their account – although this will bring it’s own set of problems (what if said fleets were part of the abuse, or what if the planet would have recalled one/all of the fleets had it been allowed to log in, and lost ships because they couldn’t – though this would only be a problem if the planet is later re-opened)…..Hmmm maybe this would just cause more problems – oh well guess that’s an issue for PA Team to resolve.

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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 11:11   #47
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

and you've obviously lost sight of the fact that alliances have a lot of players and not all players know what the other is doing, this guy responded to a defense call, he didn't cheat, he had nothing to do with the cheating....he was trying to be a team player, help his alliance and got screwed
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 11:14   #48
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

[ 01:00:59 ] <+Marv> no
[ 01:01:16 ] <+Marv> becaise if i fix it for you and no one else i will upset alot of people and thus make a double standard

Everytime i see a thread likew this my blood starts to boil.
This is the typical attitude i was complaining on my 'innocent until proven guilty' thread.
Support team, you are there to HELP. Start acting like you mean it.
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 11:31   #49
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Just give the guy his ships back and stop the drama plz
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Unread 15 Aug 2006, 11:34   #50
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Re: Planetarion Support Team

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
and you've obviously lost sight of the fact that alliances have a lot of players and not all players know what the other is doing, this guy responded to a defense call, he didn't cheat, he had nothing to do with the cheating....he was trying to be a team player, help his alliance and got screwed
Actually I didn't lose sight of that at all - I agree it was unfortunate that he lost ships - but heck I've lost ships on def calls - either because the dc stuffed up, someone who was meant to send def didn't or did & pulled etc etc - none of which was my fault, but it also wasn't the fault of the PA Team - it was the fault of the dc or the person who didn't launch/pulled etc....in fam's case it was the fault of the person who got themselves closed.
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