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12 May 2006, 13:46
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,094
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15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/4764417.stm
I mean seriously, what the **** is that prosecution going to achieve? If an 11 yr old can have unprotected sex whilst on a night out* and not cry rape why bother ruining the life of a 15yr old boy? I feel desperately sorry for the poor boy.
*I wasn't allowed nights out with my friends till i 17ish
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12 May 2006, 13:55
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#2
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
He broke the law, therefore there must be vengenace. His suffering nourishes us all.
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12 May 2006, 19:35
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#3
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
He broke the law, therefore there must be vengenace. His suffering nourishes us all.
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Go to "Juve" and play with playstations and watch sky TV all day.
What a result.
........ next
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12 May 2006, 14:04
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#4
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
i hope the constant manrapings over the next few years show him the error of his ways. and that he then kills himself.
who knows; with a kid like that next thing he probably would have tried weed.
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12 May 2006, 14:23
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#5
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Why has she not been prosecuted too?
She had sex with a fifteen year old boy, and that's illegal as far as I'm aware...
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 14:27
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#6
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Why has she not been prosecuted too?
She had sex with a fifteen year old boy, and that's illegal as far as I'm aware...
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No penis, remember?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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12 May 2006, 14:30
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#7
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
No penis, remember?
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She can't be prosecuted for rape, obviously, but there are plenty of other offences that don't require the person committing them to be male.
(I don't see any reason why she's not guilty of sexual activity with a child, ss9 and 13 of the SOA, for instance.)
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 14:43
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#8
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
She can't be prosecuted for rape, obviously, but there are plenty of other offences that don't require the person committing them to be male.
(I don't see any reason why she's not guilty of sexual activity with a child, ss9 and 13 of the SOA, for instance.)
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Yeah but if you read ss10 and 15 of the SOB closely you see that I haven't a bog arsed clue what you're talking about so ****ing paste it for ****s sake.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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12 May 2006, 14:52
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#9
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but if you read ss10 and 15 of the SOB closely you see that I haven't a bog arsed clue what you're talking about so ****ing paste it for ****s sake.
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I linked to it in the other sex-related thread, but here it is again.
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 17:52
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but if you read ss10 and 15 of the SOB closely you see that I haven't a bog arsed clue what you're talking about so ****ing paste it for ****s sake.
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You made me giggle like a school girl.
That's possibly the wrong thing to say on the wrong thread though.
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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12 May 2006, 19:24
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#11
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Yeah but if you read ss10 and 15 of the SOB closely you see that I haven't a bog arsed clue what you're talking about so ****ing paste it for ****s sake.
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http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...ighlight=yahwe
why exactly do I bother you piss-headed potatoe eating traitor?
__________________
hi
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12 May 2006, 15:09
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#12
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
(I don't see any reason why she's not guilty of sexual activity with a child, ss9 and 13 of the SOA, for instance.)
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true, but she could argue that she "reasonably believed him to be 16 or over"
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12 May 2006, 15:16
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#13
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
true, but she could argue that she "reasonably believed him to be 16 or over"
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It was in August last year, so there's a good chance he was actually 14 at the time. And though it's easy for 14-year-old girls to look like they're 21 it's rather harder for 14- and 15-year-old boys to look 16.
Oh, and it has to be "reasonable" belief, as you say, so they'd have to ask questions like "Did you ask him how old he was?" and "Did you not think it slightly odd that you thought he was significantly older than all the other friends you were going out with?". (It's also quite likely they went to the same school, so if she knew which year he was in she's screwed (see, I can do puns in bad taste too).)
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 22:54
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#14
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
(I don't see any reason why she's not guilty of sexual activity with a child, ss9 and 13 of the SOA, for instance.)
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You can't be a victim of a crime committed against you. I think the different grades of offence make her the victim as opposed to them being equal victims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/news/tm_objectid=17061371%26method=full%26siteid=66633-name_page.html
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This is totally ridiculous. The age of criminal responsibility in England is the age of 10, so unless the law differs in Scotland then this is totally retarded reporting.
__________________
Finally free!
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12 May 2006, 23:24
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#15
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
You can't be a victim of a crime committed against you.
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yes you can be.
__________________
hi
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12 May 2006, 14:39
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#16
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☆ ♥
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,489
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
It's for this reason that anyone I have sex with could become pregnant and keep the baby that I have taken up celibacy as of 1 month ago.
__________________
R3: LegioN (came #32) || R4: BlueTuba
R5: WolfPack Order || R6: Wolfpack
R7: Fury
----------retired-------
R52-R55: Apprime
R56-R57: FaceLess
R58-60: Apprime/Ultores
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12 May 2006, 14:41
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#17
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Insanity Prawn Boy!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In a bush where you can't find me
Posts: 2,474
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Androme2
It's for this reason that anyone I have sex with could become pregnant and keep the baby that I have taken up celibacy as of 1 month ago.
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You could, y'know, use a condom
__________________
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them.
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12 May 2006, 14:46
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#18
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Easy there tiger.
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Actually I'm not angry I just couldn't figure out a why to finish that sentence without cursing
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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12 May 2006, 15:03
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#19
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
How many times does have to be pointed out: equal rights doesn't apply to men.
__________________
Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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12 May 2006, 15:15
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#20
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
How many times does have to be pointed out: equal rights doesn't apply to men.
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Maybe, but I think there's probably some difference between an 11 year old and a 15 year old.
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12 May 2006, 15:10
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#21
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Born Sinful
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Loughborough, UK
Posts: 4,059
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
is she actually saying he raped her?
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She doesn't have to, it's legally defined as rape at that age.
__________________
Worth dying for. Worth killing for. Worth going to hell for. Amen.
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12 May 2006, 15:26
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#22
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Insanity Prawn Boy!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In a bush where you can't find me
Posts: 2,474
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Does the SOA act deliberatly use the term "he" to mean "only a male", or does it mean "he or she"?
__________________
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them.
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12 May 2006, 15:41
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#23
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Chavs eh?
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12 May 2006, 17:57
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#24
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Chavs eh?
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__________________
lazy
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12 May 2006, 15:42
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#25
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
Does the SOA act deliberatly use the term "he" to mean "only a male", or does it mean "he or she"?
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there is no use of 'she' in the document. even when they use a pronoun to refer to the victim, they use he.
i'd assume it means 'he or she'
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12 May 2006, 16:52
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#26
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon Dave
Does the SOA act deliberatly use the term "he" to mean "only a male", or does it mean "he or she"?
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"He" is the standard pronoun for an unknown gender in english. It's a whole 50% shorter than the frankly unwieldy "they".
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12 May 2006, 17:03
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#27
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Insanity Prawn Boy!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In a bush where you can't find me
Posts: 2,474
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
"He" is the standard pronoun for an unknown gender in english. It's a whole 50% shorter than the frankly unwieldy "they".
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Thank you, I thought (hoped) that would be the case
__________________
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them.
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12 May 2006, 17:13
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#28
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
s6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 provides that "in any Act, unless the contrary intention appears, words importing the masculine gender include the feminine; words importing the feminine gender include the masculine; words in the singular include the plural and words in the plural include the singular."
(Plus if it had meant to exclude women it would obviously have started "a man" rather than "a person".)
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 18:16
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#29
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Has Soup On His Head
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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12 May 2006, 18:37
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#30
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NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
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girl victim, aged 3
__________________
[20:27:47] <nodrog-aawy> **** i think my housemate just caught me masturbating
[11:25:32] <idimmu> you are a little piggy arent you
[13:17:00] <KaneED> i'm so closet i'm like narnia
__________________
Pretty parks and funky scrap metal things here
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12 May 2006, 18:44
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#31
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
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I would like to nominate this for best line in a newspaper report ever:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Daily Record
The accused boy still visits his 53-year-old sex-beast father.
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__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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12 May 2006, 18:49
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#32
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
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"That bitch said she was 16!!"
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12 May 2006, 19:01
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#33
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
"That bitch said she was 16!!"
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she was dressed provocatively
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12 May 2006, 18:58
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
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The most annoying thing about that report is that it doesnt give you the specfic facts about the case which would make a rational evaluation possible. For instance, it would be quite different if the boy actually violently raped her, than it would be if he was just touching her in a "but I didnt know there was anything wrong with this because I'm only 9 and havent yet learned how society views sexual behavior" way. Most tabloid articles are bad because they are clouded by an arrational interpretation of the facts, but this one is worse becuase it doesnt even mention the facts themselves. Its a horrible, horrible piece of journalism which is designed to hit people on the emotional level, while denying them the opportunity of moving beyond this.
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12 May 2006, 19:32
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#35
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Has Soup On His Head
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The most annoying thing about that report is that it doesnt give you the specfic facts about the case which would make a rational evaluation possible. For instance, it would be quite different if the boy actually violently raped her, than it would be if he was just touching her in a "but I didnt know there was anything wrong with this because I'm only 9 and havent yet learned how society views sexual behavior" way. Most tabloid articles are bad because they are clouded by an arrational interpretation of the facts, but this one is worse becuase it doesnt even mention the facts themselves. Its a horrible, horrible piece of journalism which is designed to hit people on the emotional level, while denying them the opportunity of moving beyond this.
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So, youre familiar then with how the Tabloids work.
Good stuff. Now, moving on .....
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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13 May 2006, 07:10
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#36
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,094
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The most annoying thing about that report is that it doesnt give you the specfic facts about the case which would make a rational evaluation possible. For instance, it would be quite different if the boy actually violently raped her, than it would be if he was just touching her in a "but I didnt know there was anything wrong with this because I'm only 9 and havent yet learned how society views sexual behavior" way. Most tabloid articles are bad because they are clouded by an arrational interpretation of the facts, but this one is worse becuase it doesnt even mention the facts themselves. Its a horrible, horrible piece of journalism which is designed to hit people on the emotional level, while denying them the opportunity of moving beyond this.
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Thats a good point, im just waiting for an 8 or 9 year old being charged for indecent assualt for playing 'doctors and nurses' with someone of a comparable age. I can barely even remember being 9 years old, when that boy grows up i doubt he'll even be able to recall exactly why he has a criminal record.
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12 May 2006, 18:46
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#37
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
whoever wrote that has a big future in the tabloids! in fact, he is probably being headhunter as we speak
__________________
lazy
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12 May 2006, 18:50
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#38
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
whoever wrote that has a big future in the tabloids! in fact, he is probably being headhunter as we speak
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It's the Daily Record. It's already a tabloid.
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12 May 2006, 18:47
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#39
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Insanity Prawn Boy!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: In a bush where you can't find me
Posts: 2,474
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
That site looked fairly tabloid-ish to me
__________________
They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We shall remember them.
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12 May 2006, 19:23
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#40
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/4764417.stm
I mean seriously, what the **** is that prosecution going to achieve? If an 11 yr old can have unprotected sex whilst on a night out* and not cry rape why bother ruining the life of a 15yr old boy? I feel desperately sorry for the poor boy.
*I wasn't allowed nights out with my friends till i 17ish
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Hows the CSA gonna get money out of a school boy?
Should be interesting
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12 May 2006, 19:53
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#41
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Hows the CSA gonna get money out of a school boy?
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Probably the same way they deal with everyone else uner the sun: ineffectually.
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12 May 2006, 19:38
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#42
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
i'll let my avatar do the talking.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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13 May 2006, 01:38
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,174
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
A would be double screwed, for attempted on C, and actual on B?
__________________
If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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13 May 2006, 01:40
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
If a girl got an abortion illegally (is there a minimum age for these things, without parental consent?) or got a tattoo while underage or whatever, woudlnt she be complicit in a crime committed against her?
edit: similarly for a person involved in assissted suicide before the 1961 Act?
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13 May 2006, 02:26
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#45
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
If a girl got an abortion illegally (is there a minimum age for these things, without parental consent?) or got a tattoo while underage or whatever, woudlnt she be complicit in a crime committed against her?
edit: similarly for a person involved in assissted suicide before the 1961 Act?
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I was being selfish and talking to proteus because he understands the inchoate offences.
yes in your examples they'd be complicit in the ordinary english sense. but that just isn't what i was talking about
__________________
hi
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13 May 2006, 08:58
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#46
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Weren't a couple of the "victims" in the Operation Spanner case guilty of being parties to offences against themselves? (or is that the same as Nod's point?)
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13 May 2006, 09:20
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#47
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Weren't a couple of the "victims" in the Operation Spanner case guilty of being parties to offences against themselves? (or is that the same as Nod's point?)
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I don't think so. The case report seems to imply that they were all injuring each other, so they charged A with GBH on B and then B with GBH on A at a different time. There don't appear to have been any people who were only injured, and never took an active part.
Similar cases might be able to help, though: in Wilson, in which a man was convicted of ABH (and then let out on appeal) because "at his wife's instigation [he] branded his initials on her buttocks with a hot knife", there never seems to have been any question that this instigating wife was or could be charged as a secondary party to his crime.
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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13 May 2006, 09:08
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#48
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Renegade of Funk
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 110
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Whats C guilty of though? :S
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by JammyJim
presumably this has to be mainstream news not 'omg 2 penguins were killed by an eskimo last night at 2am. local police chief Iwakoa Sanjo has said that the brutal murderers will be brought to justice snow style'.
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13 May 2006, 09:20
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#49
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Lord Denning
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: City of London
Posts: 2,548
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Re: 15 year old prosecuted for rape, 11 yr old enjoying pregnancy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cut Tooth
Whats C guilty of though? :S
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Something under the Sexual Offences Act, most likely.
__________________
Please bear in mind when reading the above post that I am always right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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