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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 19:14   #1
acropolis
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Republicans

or Tories. Flavor to taste.

Can you turn a Republican* straight? Or are they born that way?

In my life, I've never seen a Republican* change parties. Sure, lots of debate about specific issues, and often they disagree with the party at large about some specific issue, but by and large no matter what happens they seem to stay that way.

I can't believe it's genetic, but I'm told there's evidence of conservatism in the wild from time to time.

Anyway.

*Tory
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 19:32   #2
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Re: Republicans

pub is the only good part in republican
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 19:48   #3
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Re: Republicans

an anagram of Republican is Pelican Rub i'll have you know
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:15   #4
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Re: Republicans

Stick a republican in a poor house or on the front line of a war, that'll ****ing switch em.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:22   #5
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Re: Republicans

So which mainstream political parties are reknowned for having members willing to embrace new ideas and views?
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:27   #6
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
So which mainstream political parties are reknowned for having members willing to embrace new ideas and views?
You say that like it's a bad thing. Why the hell would anyone support a political party which changed ideas?


"We campaigned under the slogan of 'no abortions'. Now we're in power abortions for all!"


Somehow I doubt they'd be re-elected.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:30   #7
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You say that like it's a bad thing. Why the hell would anyone support a political party which changed ideas?
the members, not the party.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:33   #8
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
the members, not the party.
You say that like the members are all elected independently. Many of them would have less hope than me of getting elected without the party machinery backing them up. Radical new ideas would get you kicked out of the party. Why rock the boat? Don't fix it unless it's broke!
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:36   #9
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Re: Republicans

When you are registered to vote for a party, you are classed as being a member of that party.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:37   #10
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Re: Republicans

ITT I start a discussion about homosexuality that was apparently slightly too thickly veiled:/

anyway here democrats vary from the strict party line WAY more than republicans.

i'm not even sure what the democrat party line is, if it exists.

i know the republican line tho, as does everyone:
1. Invade somewhere
2. Cut taxes
3. Gay marriage is bad mmmkay

pretty simple.

Democrats:
1. We favor invading Iraq too. But in retrospect, we are against it. But we should stay, and either diminish or increase our presence there.
2. Tax cuts are good. But we need to get rid of some of them, or leave them all there.
3. Gay marriage is bad, but constitutional amendments against it are bad too, that's why we voted for the DOMA, which we oppose

You rarely hear of right-wingers becoming left wingers, but lefties become righties all the time.

Last edited by acropolis; 14 Jul 2004 at 20:44.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 20:47   #11
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Re: Republicans

I think we all got that acro. We hardly needed another thread though did we?


PS So what you're saying nod, is that people who vote for a mainstream political party once rarely, if ever, change their minds over their fundamental ideals?
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 21:02   #12
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Exclamation Re: Republicans

If you're talking about politicians switching parties: Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican party in 2001 (technically he became an Independent, but he caucused with the Democrats). At the time, it shifted the balance of power in the Senate--unseating Trent Lott as Majority Leader and putting Tom Daschle in that position (at least until the 2002 elections).

Historically, politicians are much more likely to swtich from a "losing" political party to a "winning" one. In the past 20 years, the Republican party has mostly been on the ascendency, so most of the desertions have been from Democrat to Republican. If/when the pendulum begins to swing the other way I would anticipate the reverse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i'm not even sure what the democrat party line is, if it exists.
That's easy--Anybody but Bush.
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 21:15   #13
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You say that like it's a bad thing. Why the hell would anyone support a political party which changed ideas?


"We campaigned under the slogan of 'no abortions'. Now we're in power abortions for all!"

"Abortions for all..."
"Boooooooooo!"
"Very well, no abortions for any one."
"Boooooooooo!"
"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others."
"Yayyyyyyyyy!"
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 21:39   #14
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Re: Republicans

Not ALL republicans* are evul!




*Tories
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 21:46   #15
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
"Abortions for all..."
"Boooooooooo!"
"Very well, no abortions for any one."
"Boooooooooo!"
"Abortions for some, miniature American flags for others."
"Yayyyyyyyyy!"
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Unread 14 Jul 2004, 21:53   #16
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Re: Republicans

Labour are probably the rough equivalent - in power, relatively coherent, and almost a subset letterwise.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 02:51   #17
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Stick a republican in a poor house or on the front line of a war, that'll ****ing switch em.
Odd, seeing that most people in the military vote republican....

EDIT: sorry for the double post, but i forgot to quote the first time and did not know how to fix it using the edit option.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 02:53   #18
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Re: Republicans

you can always just delete you know
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 02:55   #19
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
you can always just delete you know
It asked for a reason, and I wasn't sure if it was a big deal or not... I shall delete it now....
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:25   #20
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
Odd, seeing that most people in the military vote republican....

EDIT: sorry for the double post, but i forgot to quote the first time and did not know how to fix it using the edit option.
Before they get sent to a war where they die and have benefits cut during the middle of it and.....
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:28   #21
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Before they get sent to a war where they die and have benefits cut during the middle of it and.....
They often still vote republican afterwards. The common misperception is that one party or the other has something to do with the grand shafting veterans get. Traditionally* though, the republican party is more friendly to the military than the democrats, which tends to curry a great deal of favor among those actually serving in it.

*by traditionally, I really mean "in the memories of those serving now" aka the last 20 or so years.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:31   #22
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
You rarely hear of right-wingers becoming left wingers, but lefties become righties all the time.
Thats a fairly interesting observation. If it's true, maybe there's something to be learned here. Why WOULD a large portion of people stop doing something, while a majority of those who never did not start at all?
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:32   #23
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
They often still vote republican afterwards. The common misperception is that one party or the other has something to do with the grand shafting veterans get. Traditionally though, the republican party is more friendly to the military than the democrats, which tends to curry a great deal of favor among those actually serving in it.
Or that the families that the military draws its soldiers from are more conservative to begin with.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:35   #24
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakhim
Or that the families that the military draws its soldiers from are more conservative to begin with.
This is true as well. I remember reading in a defense publication once that a majority of the US armed forces come from the south, which is fiercely patriotic and conservative. I've always rather felt it extremely ironic that the portion of the country that attempted to secede and was crushed is also the most loyal and tends to staff the very army that defeated it. (;
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 03:58   #25
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
They often still vote republican afterwards. The common misperception is that one party or the other has something to do with the grand shafting veterans get. Traditionally* though, the republican party is more friendly to the military than the democrats, which tends to curry a great deal of favor among those actually serving in it.

*by traditionally, I really mean "in the memories of those serving now" aka the last 20 or so years.
Yes but the republicans have bucked tradition big style this year, perhaps aggrieved at how tradition wasn't getting them into the senate and that they had to cheat their way in so screw em etc :P
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 09:15   #26
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
You rarely hear of right-wingers becoming left wingers, but lefties become righties all the time.
There are examples of people becoming more radical over time, but I'd cynically note that "Right Winger Changes Mind, Condemns Corporate World" probably isn't going to get as much airtime in the corporate media than "Ex-Radical Apologises; Says Was Brainwashed By Communists".

There are plenty of racist => non-racist conversions for instance, but I think that relates to a point that Tact makes. People when changing their political colours will tend to go with the prevailing winds. Ignoring irrelevent distinctions like Democrat/Republican most of the "winds" in our society (understandably) are vaguely pro-system in one form or another. Since pro-system type views tend to benefit what you'd term "right-wing" views then it's understandable they'd get more high profile "conversions" (as it were).

Of course, there could be some truth to the argument "you get more right wing as you get older" (although it's certainly not universally true). Some (by no means all) people's political views seem to stem from some personal experience of poverty, or powerlessness, or whatever. As you grow older these are often far less of an issue (either because you become more sucessful, or less rebellious).

Also, being a true "radical" (in whichever direction) generally requires quite a bit of effort. You have to subscribe to obscure publications which are difficult to get hold of. You have to read a variety of news sources because CNN can't be trusted, to meet people who have similar views is more of an effort (all of this is less true now the 'net is around), and so on. On a more concrete level having "extreme" views can either be dangerous (in some countries) or alienating (ever casually advocated abolishing the age of consent or legalising heroin at the water cooler at work?). When you've got a family to raise, and bills to pay, and a partner to spend time with, all of these things get tiring. It's much easier to sit down in front of the telly, turn on CNN and realise that you really do love big brother.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 09:29   #27
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
On a more concrete level having "extreme" views can either be dangerous (in some countries) or alienating (ever casually advocated abolishing the age of consent or legalising heroin at the water cooler at work?). When you've got a family to raise, and bills to pay, and a partner to spend time with, all of these things get tiring. It's much easier to sit down in front of the telly, turn on CNN and realise that you really do love big brother.
Funnily enough last night when we were sitting in the pub (as one does) discussing (if you define the word loosely) immigration it was proposed that white people are a step up the evolutionary ladder from black people, a proposition which provoked little dissent. I was about to say something and then I just thought "why bother?" So if Ireland becomes a white-supremacist totalitarian state you know who to blame!




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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 12:34   #28
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
This is true as well. I remember reading in a defense publication once that a majority of the US armed forces come from the south, which is fiercely patriotic and conservative. I've always rather felt it extremely ironic that the portion of the country that attempted to secede and was crushed is also the most loyal and tends to staff the very army that defeated it. (;
i resent the statement that they are the 'most loyal', and not even because of the 'dude dissent is patriotic man' bull crap. those treasonous ****tards are still talking about seceding (what were the finalists for the crazy right-wing church thing? alabma and south carolina?) and good riddance.

they join the army more because the south is poor, has no jobs, has no health system, doesn't support a decent education, is run by inept fools, and they want to get the hell out.

afghans would probably join our army just as quickly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Also, being a true "radical" (in whichever direction) generally requires quite a bit of effort. You have to subscribe to obscure publications which are difficult to get hold of. You have to read a variety of news sources because CNN can't be trusted, to meet people who have similar views is more of an effort (all of this is less true now the 'net is around), and so on. On a more concrete level having "extreme" views can either be dangerous (in some countries) or alienating (ever casually advocated abolishing the age of consent or legalising heroin at the water cooler at work?). When you've got a family to raise, and bills to pay, and a partner to spend time with, all of these things get tiring. It's much easier to sit down in front of the telly, turn on CNN and realise that you really do love big brother.
So anyway. There's this John Walker Lindh guy. And so he combs the internet looking for whacky beliefs to make him stand out and be 'cool.' He goes through some crazy fads, like for one month he'll be an all out Rastafarian, smokin' his ganja and hanging with his Rasta crew. And then one day he'll see something about gangsta rap, and he'll be all like 'Well, clearly gangsta is my thang' and next thing is FUBUed out and with the bling and the headphones 24/7 dissing da hos and blowin bout how he's the P-I-M-P and posting on gangstarap.com that "yo illmatic is illmatic yo" which has a certain symmetry to it but that's beside the point.

And then one day he came across a fundamentalist Islam site and he was like 'yo that looks like the shiznit biznatch' and the next day he was growing a beard. And from then on, whenever he came across a new idea that looked like it might be cool, his new reaction was "That is the hand of the White Satan tempting me!" And he was done changing fads from day to day.

Bottom line is there are some belief systems (many of them religious) that teach people to treat new ideas the way Bobby Boucher's mom does, and they have a very low 'free energy' (e.g., they are very stable).
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 13:33   #29
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Re: Republicans

I once heard someone say, "If you are young and not a liberal you have no heart, but if you are old and not a conservative you have no brain"....
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 14:40   #30
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Re: Republicans

The problem with republicans is their fringe.

Seriously, look at the fringes of the two parties and compate:

Democratic Fringe: man or woman who sleeps on a mat, wears nothing but hemp clothing and chains himself to whales, all while wandering about in a cannabis induced daze, incapable of coherent speech, then boosting the consumer economy by being overcome by the munchies.

Republican Fringe: fanatic ultra-religious zealot who lives on a compound with his 6 wives and 18 children. He hates the pope because in vatican II the pope stated that the bible did not actually happen exactly as written 4004 years ago, and wants to shoot any teacher who dares befowl the classroom with talk that man descended from monkeys.

Seriously, the fringe of the right is WAY scarier, and they get a lot of press. Of course, it does not help that the current US president has abandoned the hallmarks of traditional republicanism (non-intervention, fiscal conservatism) and has deliberatly tried to appeal to the fanatic religious right...
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 18:05   #31
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i resent the statement that they are the 'most loyal', and not even because of the 'dude dissent is patriotic man' bull crap. those treasonous ****tards are still talking about seceding (what were the finalists for the crazy right-wing church thing? alabma and south carolina?) and good riddance.

they join the army more because the south is poor, has no jobs, has no health system, doesn't support a decent education, is run by inept fools, and they want to get the hell out.
What in the hell are you talking about? have you ever actually been south of pennsylvania?
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 18:32   #32
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I
Mistrust of big government, fear of rapid social change, a wish for security and social order, a desire to keep ones wealth. All these are fair enough
What does "fair enough" mean here? Are they proper things to feel? Are you claiming that they would ideally not feel them?

Quote:
For instance Americans who are pro-war, aren't so becasue they like death or because they hatew IRaqi's but because they are scared.
Is their fear rational? Is it the correct response to recent events?

Quote:
I think conservatives haven't thought about the issues enough or are ill -informed, but in many cases they want the same things as me.
What about the ones who have? Most people haven't thought through their positions, including the vast majority of Marxists I've encountered. Why are conservatives being singled out here?





A pseudo-psychological explanation of why someone believes something is not an argument against it.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 18:38   #33
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
Democratic Fringe: man or woman who sleeps on a mat, wears nothing but hemp clothing and chains himself to whales, all while wandering about in a cannabis induced daze, incapable of coherent speech, then boosting the consumer economy by being overcome by the munchies.

Republican Fringe: fanatic ultra-religious zealot who lives on a compound with his 6 wives and 18 children. He hates the pope because in vatican II the pope stated that the bible did not actually happen exactly as written 4004 years ago, and wants to shoot any teacher who dares befowl the classroom with talk that man descended from monkeys.
haha, no

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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 19:23   #34
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Re: Republicans

Lyndon Larouche is just insane, I'm not sure he can reliably be affiliated with the Democrats.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 20:15   #35
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
What in the hell are you talking about? have you ever actually been south of pennsylvania?
http://christianexodus.org/
and
are you disagreeing with any of what i posted or trying to change the subject?

factually, the south is poorer, does have worse health care, does have worse education, does have fewer and worse jobs, and does have inept leaders.

the claim that southerners join the army because they want to get out is debatable, as motivations will always vary from person to person for anything. but in general people from poorer areas are more likely to join the army than others, as people who can pay for college without entering the military generally don't.

But the statement that southerners are "more patriotic" is as reprehensible as it wrong, and so is the statement that they are "more loyal."
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 20:38   #36
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
http://christianexodus.org/
and
are you disagreeing with any of what i posted or trying to change the subject?

factually, the south is poorer, does have worse health care, does have worse education, does have fewer and worse jobs, and does have inept leaders.

the claim that southerners join the army because they want to get out is debatable, as motivations will always vary from person to person for anything. but in general people from poorer areas are more likely to join the army than others, as people who can pay for college without entering the military generally don't.

But the statement that southerners are "more patriotic" is as reprehensible as it wrong, and so is the statement that they are "more loyal."
are we allowed to draw the conclusion that due to the south having a larger concentration of more conservative and fanatical christians, that the more christians (and multiply by degree of fanatacisim) - the stupider the overall area is, and hence the higher the overall service in the military?

this isnt a condemnation/disagreement with your post
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 20:44   #37
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Exclamation Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
factually, the south is poorer, does have worse health care, does have worse education, does have fewer and worse jobs, and does have inept leaders.

the claim that southerners join the army because they want to get out is debatable, as motivations will always vary from person to person for anything. but in general people from poorer areas are more likely to join the army than others, as people who can pay for college without entering the military generally don't.
None of which goes very far in explaining why military personel tend to vote Republican; unless you're suggesting that the poor, jobless and uneducated are a strong Republican constituency.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 20:45   #38
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Quote:
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 21:12   #39
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
None of which goes very far in explaining why military personel tend to vote Republican; unless you're suggesting that the poor, jobless and uneducated are a strong Republican constituency.
the 'spitting on soldiers' idea in the 70s may have sounded like a good idea at the time but in the long term it probably wasn't a good GI recruitment idea.

Overall I think that people tend to take on the parties of their 'higher ups', in high school and college people tend left as their teachers and professors are more left and high schoolers and undergrads go left with them, in the business world and the army the managers, CEOs and generals tend to be more right (and generals tend to be more right because historically Republicans have put more money into more troops/more guns/more tanks) and their underlings tend to go right with them.

that's how i'd size it up.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 22:11   #40
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Exclamation Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Overall I think that people tend to take on the parties of their 'higher ups', in high school and college people tend left as their teachers and professors are more left and high schoolers and undergrads go left with them, in the business world and the army the managers, CEOs and generals tend to be more right (and generals tend to be more right because historically Republicans have put more money into more troops/more guns/more tanks) and their underlings tend to go right with them.

that's how i'd size it up.
Damn. I was rooting for Free Will.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 22:16   #41
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Damn. I was rooting for Free Will.
The two notions aren't mutually exclusive dear.
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 22:37   #42
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
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Damn. I was rooting for Free Will.
the Washington Generals of political philosophy continue the streak...
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 23:14   #43
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Exclamation Re: Republicans

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The two notions aren't mutually exclusive dear.
What was I thinking?
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Unread 15 Jul 2004, 23:30   #44
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
http://christianexodus.org/
and
are you disagreeing with any of what i posted or trying to change the subject?

factually, the south is poorer, does have worse health care, does have worse education, does have fewer and worse jobs, and does have inept leaders.

the claim that southerners join the army because they want to get out is debatable, as motivations will always vary from person to person for anything. but in general people from poorer areas are more likely to join the army than others, as people who can pay for college without entering the military generally don't.

But the statement that southerners are "more patriotic" is as reprehensible as it wrong, and so is the statement that they are "more loyal."
I am not so sure this is true in the 21st century. While I may agree with you that there is more money in the north, I do not think that it is enough to make a difference. I have been all over the United States and have really only witnessed cultural differences, NOT economical differences.
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 00:50   #45
acropolis
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
I am not so sure this is true in the 21st century. While I may agree with you that there is more money in the north, I do not think that it is enough to make a difference. I have been all over the United States and have really only witnessed cultural differences, NOT economical differences.
well, defining the south to be:

north carolina
south carolina
georgia
florida
alabama
mississippi
tennessee
arkansas
louisiana
kentucky

median income rankings:
20 (georgia)
32
33
38
39
42
44
47
48
49 (mississippi)

course that was in 1999, which isn't really 21st century. but i doubt there's been much motion since.
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 01:16   #46
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
well, defining the south to be:

north carolina
south carolina
georgia
florida
alabama
mississippi
tennessee
arkansas
louisiana
kentucky
er... Texas?. It may have a distinct identity but it's damn well not northern.

Anyway, the south is still slightly poorer than the north but not by a huge amount.
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 01:20   #47
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Re: Republicans

it's also significantly cheaper to live in the south. Salaries are not like living in connecticut because the cost of living is much, much lower. (usually)
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 11:55   #48
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
er... Texas?. It may have a distinct identity but it's damn well not northern.

Anyway, the south is still slightly poorer than the north but not by a huge amount.
texas is 30ish by individual, 40ish by family.

they aren't really 'old south', which is why i didn't include them.

Viriginia, who I did not include, is old south, and is doing very well actually. But the high income area is in the Boswash, that epitomy of yankeedom, and to that extent they make a poor example. Can't really separate that part and it wouldn't be entirely fair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandsnake
it's also significantly cheaper to live in the south. Salaries are not like living in connecticut because the cost of living is much, much lower. (usually)
That's entirely true, but Afghanistan has a very low cost of living too. And a lot of this kind of stuff is completely unnoticeable in day-to-day life (it helps that the fed has a giant firehose of money coming from the northeast into the south), but when someone is trying to get a good doctor or send someone to college, it's a huge thing.

(PS: i like your avatar)
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Unread 16 Jul 2004, 22:45   #49
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Re: Republicans

Right, well the north does have more money than the south, but the economical difference to each other relative to the rest of the world is minimal and I dont think plays a factor. I guess my main point is that while the south may be poorer than the north, I think the difference is minimal enough for it not to play a large factor in "Why the south votes republican".
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Unread 17 Jul 2004, 21:10   #50
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Re: Republicans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
Right, well the north does have more money than the south, but the economical difference to each other relative to the rest of the world is minimal and I dont think plays a factor. I guess my main point is that while the south may be poorer than the north, I think the difference is minimal enough for it not to play a large factor in "Why the south votes republican".
Considering the differences between the parties aren't exactly gigantic one could claim that the "small" difference is enough to be important in "why the south votes republican". After all it's relative differences that often count in most people's minds, the fact some poor black man in Etritea just had to sell his baby daughter for a bag of ****ing maize won't necessarily impact on the thinking of the inhabitants of the southern states when they find out their average GNP is lower than it is in the north-east and that's the reason they can't bring their kids on holiday to Disneyland this year.
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