Michael Moore

[wu_trax]

Dear Governor Bush:
So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:
1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!
2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.
3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.
4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place.
5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!
6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.
Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!
But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!
Yours,
Michael Moore

i guess they are not all insane yet

[Radical Edward]

Michael Moore is a bit of god though....

[GavGull]

I was going to read this until I saw "Kill Iraqis - They got our oil!" at the bottom.

PS. yes I know it's "ironic".

[Structural Integrity]

"Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!"

This killed the whole quote... He's prolly just as stupid as Bush himself.

[NotLife]

this is why I like Michael Moore !

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
"Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!"

This killed the whole quote... He's prolly just as stupid as Bush himself.

Erm, what is people's objection to this quote?

And Michael Moore is definitely not stupid. Not that I'd say Bush was either.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
"Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!"

This killed the whole quote... He's prolly just as stupid as Bush himself.

not really.

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Erm, what is people's objection to this quote?

And Michael Moore is definitely not stupid. Not that I'd say Bush was either.

This whole "blood for oil" thing is just too silly to talk about. Or did I miss an obvious point of sarcasm in that line?

[Judge]

Never heard of him.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
This whole "blood for oil" thing is just too silly to talk about. Or did I miss an obvious point of sarcasm in that line?

well, there is no other reason for that war that makes any sence at all.

[Judge]

Originally posted by wu_trax
well, there is no other reason for that war that makes any sence at all.

SENSE.

That aside, yes there is.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by wu_trax
well, there is no other reason for that war that makes any sence at all.

the oil reason makes no sense. not on it's own anyway.


and simple thought wiull lead you to a number of other viable reasons for war

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by Judge
SENSE.

That aside, yes there is.

Indeed:

"popularity"

or

The continuation of the war against terrorism (which is basically dead if it weren't for Saddam, no?).

[Subatai]

Originally posted by Judge
Never heard of him.

The other day I heard him called the P.T. Barnum of the documentary film genre.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
"Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!"

This killed the whole quote... He's prolly just as stupid as Bush himself.

What specific objection have you got to this piece of irony?

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
What specific objection have you got to this piece of irony?

Explain the irony or sarcasm to me then. I'm a retard when it comes to written irony/sarcasm.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
the oil reason makes no sense. not on it's own anyway.


and simple thought wiull lead you to a number of other viable reasons for war

like ??
without a war saddam will kill all of us with his large army and his ICBMs?
bring freedom and democracy to the people of iraq?
oh, please ...

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by wu_trax
like ??
without a war saddam will kill all of us with his large army and his ICBMs?
bring freedom and democracy to the people of iraq?
oh, please ...

like war is an excellent way to distract the US from its domestic problems
like bush wants more influence in the middle east
like bush wants to be een as a hero, overthrowing a well known tyrant
like instilling democracy in the region will benefit the US economically, and hopefully democracy will spread

and more..... You have to look at the long term US policy in the region to understand fully. I am sure that Vermillion couldfurnish you with far more reasons than I

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
This whole "blood for oil" thing is just too silly to talk about. Or did I miss an obvious point of sarcasm in that line?

Well, he's obviously being sarcastic since he's against the war. But beyond that, he's making light of a view on the war by satirising a stereotypical red-neck view on the war.

I would imagine.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
Explain the irony or sarcasm to me then. I'm a retard when it comes to written irony/sarcasm.

Read the entire line. I suspect he may not be serious.


But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
like war is an excellent way to distract the US from its domestic problems

irrelevant, because it will all be long forgotten until the election.

like bush wants more influence in the middle east

for what, if not for oil?

like bush wants to be een as a hero, overthrowing a well known tyrant

for that reason you have to assume bush make his decisions on his own. i dont think so.

like instilling democracy in the region will benefit the US economically, and hopefully democracy will spread

the only democracy around there voted against supporting an us-war on iraq, they got ingnored, by their own president as well as by the us. its far easier to deal with dictators. and what economical benefits, if not the oil? with the reconstruction for sure there can be a few billions made, but thats not enough to outweight the costs of the war.

and more..... You have to look at the long term US policy in the region to understand fully. I am sure that Vermillion couldfurnish you with far more reasons than I

they oil-argument is only valid if you see it on the long term. but keep them comming

[Kurashima]

Satirical
Cynical
Confrontational
Humourous

4 reasons why Michael Moore can expect people to start targetting him for being anti war. Because when stupid people are in office , you have to make sure the clever people shut up, in case they show them up for being stupid.

Expect Michael Moore to find sponsorships pulled , movies blacklisted or unable to find a distributor, and generally have himself ****ed over in the next few years.

Because the unelected government doesnt like people who arent "Patriotic".

THEY support the terrorists. THEY should go live in France.

*sigh*

[MrL_JaKiri]

He's been subjected to that before. Read the introduction to the European edition of Stupid White Men.

[Kurashima]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
He's been subjected to that before. Read the introduction to the European edition of Stupid White Men.

I ordered it on DVD last week. It still hasnt arrived.

Stupid play.com ... havent delivered my bloody CD's either , but theyve charged me for them.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Kurashima
I ordered it on DVD last week. It still hasnt arrived.

Stupid play.com ... havent delivered my bloody CD's either , but theyve charged me for them.

its a book (and none i actually liked). maybe you think of 'bowling for colombine'? thats his movie (which was pretty much interesting).

[queball]

Originally posted by wu_trax
there voted against supporting an us-war on iraq, they got ingnored, by their own president as well as by the us. its far easier to deal with dictators. and what economical benefits, if not the oil? with the reconstruction for sure there can be a few billions made, but thats not enough to outweight the costs of the war.

It is easy to deal with dictators, but it can be even easier to deal with a puppet government. The financial cost of the war is that money is being spent on war instead of more valuable things, and the dual effect that people employed by the army could be doing more valuable work elsewhere. But the military often finances invaluable technology and scientific research, and war gives them incentive to do more. Each American who is taxed £1000 might not buy McDonalds for a year, but if even 1 penny of that is instead spent on physicists then it is well spent.

I'm sure a lot of army types think they can spend your money better than you. They're usually wrong but not always, for example I read an article about France making a profit on its military investment from manufacturing and research (selling weapons). There are other costs, but the "real" loss in utility is hard to measure.

This might all seem very academic, but what's good for the country isn't quite as clear cut as how much is spent on bombs versus how much we save from having Iraqi goods and services on the market. What if the next Albert Einstein is working for Saddam making boots, and we can give him a job as a university professor?

[Kurashima]

Originally posted by wu_trax
its a book (and none i actually liked). maybe you think of 'bowling for colombine'? thats his movie (which was pretty much interesting).

My apologies. You are correct. It was indeed Bowling for Columbine i ordered.

[Eddie]

I wouldn't expect it to turn up for a while either when the release date has been pushed back to mid-may.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by queball
It is easy to deal with dictators, but it can be even easier to deal with a puppet government.

turkey used to be a puppet goverment.

The financial cost of the war is that money is being spent on war instead of more valuable things, and the dual effect that people employed by the army could be doing more valuable work elsewhere. But the military often finances invaluable technology and scientific research, and war gives them incentive to do more. Each American who is taxed £1000 might not buy McDonalds for a year, but if even 1 penny of that is instead spent on physicists then it is well spent.

I'm sure a lot of army types think they can spend your money better than you. They're usually wrong but not always, for example I read an article about France making a profit on its military investment from manufacturing and research (selling weapons). There are other costs, but the "real" loss in utility is hard to measure.

This might all seem very academic, but what's good for the country isn't quite as clear cut as how much is spent on bombs versus how much we save from having Iraqi goods and services on the market. What if the next Albert Einstein is working for Saddam making boots, and we can give him a job as a university professor?

the money isnt exactly 'lost', its just redistributed. its not much of a difference if you take money from A and give it to B, so that B can spend it compared to A spending all the money and B doing nothing at all. i see the us-army as a kind of replacement for social security. and i wouldnt underestimate the positive aspects of military research and sience. the problem is: if you have a large army most of the time you would like to use it some way or the other.

[Sandsnake]

Micheal Moore is ****. He's sensationalist, takes the "pissed-off hero to the people" thing a bit beyond necessary, and has yet to make a valid argument without heading right off into something that isn't.

In that letter, he makes wild claims which are COMPLETELY untrue, goes on about how bad things are when he's a member of a party that has done ****all to fix it, and is himself, just as hypocritical as anyone else.


Oh, and he writes like the spokesman of the common people when all he's doing is making grossly over-exaggerated claims with the word "we" thrown in front of it.

[Eddie]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
when he's a member of a party that has done ****all to fix it

Which party would that be exactly?

[wu_trax]

the movie was pretty good though. i never thought of that 'fear'-argument.

[Kurashima]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
Micheal Moore is ****. He's sensationalist, takes the "pissed-off hero to the people" thing a bit beyond necessary, and has yet to make a valid argument without heading right off into something that isn't.

In that letter, he makes wild claims which are COMPLETELY untrue, goes on about how bad things are when he's a member of a party that has done ****all to fix it, and is himself, just as hypocritical as anyone else.


Oh, and he writes like the spokesman of the common people when all he's doing is making grossly over-exaggerated claims with the word "we" thrown in front of it.

Would you care to destroy his arguments by providing proof of their inaccuracy, or will you take the Bush administration line, and simply say hes wrong without producing any evidence?

[acropolis]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
Micheal Moore is ****. He's sensationalist, takes the "pissed-off hero to the people" thing a bit beyond necessary, and has yet to make a valid argument without heading right off into something that isn't.

In that letter, he makes wild claims which are COMPLETELY untrue, goes on about how bad things are when he's a member of a party that has done ****all to fix it, and is himself, just as hypocritical as anyone else.


Oh, and he writes like the spokesman of the common people when all he's doing is making grossly over-exaggerated claims with the word "we" thrown in front of it.

I don't particularly like him either, but I don't see what in the letter can be called 'completely untrue'

And he is sensationalist, but we are in a state of unfortunate affairs right now where any liberal who tells obvious truths without sensationalizing gets completely ignored by the media. The people aren't interested in facts. The people want to see the sensational. And when lives are at stake, and you have the option of giving the facts that lead to conclusion A that everyone will ignore, and the sensationalism that leads to conclusion A that people will listen to, which do you pick?

If you are saying the democratic party hasn't done anything to fix 'the problem', that seems just silly (even though I'm not sure what problem you are talking about).

[Sandsnake]

Dear Governor Bush:
So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that "France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because, I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like to share with you:

sensationalist, worthless drivel. He's already started down the hype road.

1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis. YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see, this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!

talking out his ass. Micheal Moore would be hard pressed to actually speak to the masses. He's abusive, condescending, and an utter twat to normal people..you should go to a book signing one day..even if he bothered to ASK anyone, they'd just tell him what he wants to hear otherwise the only way to shut him up is to kick his teeth in. He also hasn't bothered to talk to anyone apparently. Many americans are somewhat dubious about the whole thing, but he's taking the fact that we don't turn all red and jump around while screaming for blood to mean that americans as a whole object.

2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you -- are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you need to go away for things to improve.

it would take me AGES to talk about these problems, but the biggest thing SHOWN so far was the fact that Mr. Moore's party does not, and has never had a plan to fix this stuff. The opposition is the only side to field any real plans of action concerning the economy. He also neglects to point out that while the economy is slumping, it's still strong. The fact that the war hasn't disctracted from the economy, and war has never saved a president from answering to the economic issues.

[qoute]3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them. [/quote]mhmmmm...once again, talking out his ass.


[qoute]4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope! But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped to Vietnam in your place. [/quote]he's a huge proponent of seperation of church and state - blatant hypocrisy.

Bush isn't catholic, and the pope's opinion mattering would be against Moore's entire belief system.

Celebrities are by and large idiots..god help us the day their opinions start mattering.

He didn't go AWOL, however his pride and joy, Gore, LIED about his military service. Once again, sensationalist tripe.

5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't think so either!

oh right, since when has congressional "participation" been required? he neglects that many of those men are war veterans, they know what this is going to be like, they've been there. I also bet if you asked him if he thought if government officials should be required to have served, he's say NO. Contradictions and hypocrisy, once again. Besides, its the kids' choice to serve, not their parents.

6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies? And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over. Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.

no, we don't like France, or were at least indifferent (we have Canada to pick on, after all). Now however most americans DON'T like france. Not because of the anti-war stance but because of the "we'll veto anything regardless" stance.

Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then (especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course, that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the toilet!
But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill Iraqis -- they got our oil!!
Yours,
Michael Moore

he's fallen into the "Blood for oil" argument, and once again, sensationalist hype designed to create an air of condescension....oh and the "war bump" didn't save Bush's father.


All in all, it's utter fking wank writing designed to make him look like an angry guy standing up to the big, bad government with "hey! look at me!" tactics...

[acropolis]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
roih

As I said, yes, it's sensationalism. I might even give you hypocrisy (though I didn't think your example was that great). But that still doesn't make it 'untrue' (maybe the part about how no one supports the war. but that's iffy, because it isn't really a statistic or something). EG: when he brings up how only one congressman has an enlisted son or daughter, is that true? Yes. Is it relevant? No. Is it inflammatory, is it demagoguery, is it sensationalism? Yes!

If I was going to try to point out Moore's weaknesses, I would say that his arguments are irrelevant demagoguery. But that would be the boring truth, and not sensationalistic, and everyone would ignore me.

So to make your point better, you fudge a little and say that he is saying things that are "completely untrue." It's sensationalism, and it should sway people to your position. Oh wait now you've just become everything about him that you just decried. And I forgot, you called him a hypocrite too:P

[laputa]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
The fact that the war hasn't disctracted from the economy, and war has never saved a president from answering to the economic issues.

Hitler and WWII.

Moore randomly gives a couple of arguments he thinks are right and clever to show Bush or the American public (in Bowling for Coumbine) what's wrong about him, them respectively.

The problem with Moore is that out of his 5 arguments usually 4 are wrong and not thought through. And the fifth? Oh well, a random hit I guess.
Example: When he is looking for the reasons of the extra-ordinarily high murder rate in the US he is thinking shortly about poverty as a main trigger. Then he dismisses this argument for the unemployment rate in Canada is higher than in the US.
But unemployment != poverty.

What I like about him though is his plain, simple often humorous style of putting things; and stepping up to the NRA chief and telling him what an utter feckwit he is was something that should have been done a couple of years earlier. He finally had the balls to do it.

Laputa

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by wu_trax


random stuff

bother me with decent counterarguments. I'm busy and can't be bothered to nitpick my way through your drivel.

[Woof]

Originally posted by Sandsnake
no, we don't like France, or were at least indifferent (we have Canada to pick on, after all). Now however most americans DON'T like france. Not because of the anti-war stance but because of the "we'll veto anything regardless" stance.

And i suppose america has never vetoed a UN resolution then?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Woof
And i suppose america has never vetoed a UN resolution then?

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm

Still, the Russians lead at the moment due to a period in the 40's and 50's.

The French would need to veto another 58 times to catch up with the US.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/data/vetotab.htm

Still, the Russians lead at the moment due to a period in the 40's and 50's.

The French would need to veto another 58 times to catch up with the US.

sarcasm.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
sarcasm.

I know.

For the benefit of Mr SS.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I know.

For the benefit of Mr SS.

you should include a caveat to your original remark, to stop those of us who know it is sarcasm from criticising you :P

[Ste]

I gained a lot of respect for the American public since Stupid White Men sold on such a level over there.
Although some of his arguments are exaggerated and opinionated a lot of the facts presented are very worrying (in the appendix he lists all his sources, so they aren't made up).
Check out www.michaelmoore.com for extra chapters added on to the end of the book.
I would ask people to read the book before commenting on whether his arguments are valid or not.

Also, just to point out - Which country has secured all rebuilding contracts (including oil wells) for Iraq? And who owns the companies? A Mr. Dick Cheney. Can't see any vested interests there.

[wu_trax]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
bother me with decent counterarguments. I'm busy and can't be bothered to nitpick my way through your drivel.

whats the problem with my counter arguments??

[Snurx]

Im to lazy to read the whole thread, so im just gonna say Michael Moore is a god.

[BuddhistPunk]

Originally posted by various people
....Michael Moore is a god.....

Mr Moore is nothing more than a ranting lunatic, somebody of the same ilk as Pat Bucannan.

Have you read his book "Stupid White Men", I am in no doubt that the points he brings to the table are valid and have some basis in truth - but I prefer to form my own opinions based of presented facts rather than listen to somebody endlessly rant. This is why I never got beyond page 30.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by BuddhistPunk
Have you read his book "Stupid White Men", I am in no doubt that the points he brings to the table are valid and have some basis in truth - but I prefer to form my own opinions based of presented facts rather than listen to somebody endlessly rant. This is why I never got beyond page 30.

There are dozens of leftist (or critical) books about the United States (or current affairs) written by very worthy professor types.

It took a book like Stupid White Men to actually sell though. You may not like ranting, but a lot seem to.

[Snurx]

Originally posted by BuddhistPunk
Mr Moore is nothing more than a ranting lunatic, somebody of the same ilk as Pat Bucannan.

Have you read his book "Stupid White Men", I am in no doubt that the points he brings to the table are valid and have some basis in truth - but I prefer to form my own opinions based of presented facts rather than listen to somebody endlessly rant. This is why I never got beyond page 30.

Thats true, and i feel the same way. But nowadays, every news you hear is a rant. As far as i know, he says the facts, and then his opinions on it! I've not yet read "stupid white men", so i cant comment on that particular case, so i dont know about it.

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
This whole "blood for oil" thing is just too silly to talk about. Or did I miss an obvious point of sarcasm in that line?

And all Iraqi military and civilian personnel should listen carefully to this warning: in any conflict, your fate will depend on your actions.

Do not destroy oil wells, a source of wealth that belongs to the Iraqi people.

Do not obey any command to use weapons of mass destruction against anyone, including the Iraqi people.

source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2859269.stm

thats from bushs ultimatum to saddam
here you can see the full idiocy of mr bush and his advisors.
they are not even clever enough to hide their real intentions.
Instead of warning them not to use weapons od mass destruction first and then warning them about the oil fields , they did it the other way around.
I guess you can see where their real priorities lie!!

yeah right it isnt about the oil.
I almost saw bush drivel as he spoke about the oil fields!!