Planetarion Forums - NTL broadband is going to start download limits

MrL_JaKiri · 9 Feb 2003, 20:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
yes whats your point?

That's the equivilent of the max number of books you can take out. If that's not what you weren't saying were equivilent, then what were you saying?

MrL_JaKiri · 9 Feb 2003, 20:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki

That's just advertising bollocks; there are clearly defined bandwidths available.

Dante Hicks · 9 Feb 2003, 20:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
No you've missed my point. When they advertised their service, it was limitless. ie you could take out as many books as you want.

My original point, as MrL has noted is that the bandwidth is the amount of books you could get out PER VISIT. So 512kbit per sec = 8 books per visit.

*IF* the libraries customers all took 8 books out at a time, then they'd probably need to introduce such limits (i.e. a max of 50 books per month or 100 per year, whatever).

This is all I meant. So the analogy still stands.

I don't agree with the policy in the strictest sense, and I'll try to use my "freedom of choice" to always select providers who don't impose limits. But it could be that economically, no provider can truly afford to sell us a dedicated leased line for the rates they currently charge.

I pay £150 per month (shared fortunately) for a 2mbit ADSL business conection. We use it pretty heavily, but I've no idea whether we are a "good" or "bad" customer. Once again, our information on this subject is restricted to the point where speculation is all completley uninformed.

Dante Hicks · 9 Feb 2003, 21:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Iniluki
When NTL users signed up to the NTL Library. It was advertised that they could take out as many books a day as they wanted.

You've misread my original post on the subject (daily limit on the library = bandwidth per sec). My point was that there are fixed limits on a lot of services (e.g. bandwidth for telco's, books per day in a library). If a lot of users operate at the very edge of this limit (e.g. by downloading at 1mbit/sec continuously or taking 8 books per day) then the service may be unmaintanable.

But I'm not sure there's any point getting annoyed about either your understanding of my post, or mine of yours, etc. I know what you mean and hopefully the converse is true.

Anyway, yes I'm fully aware of why they're doing this. I didn't think it's to be fair. But if you look at your original T&C there will be something stupid in there like "We can do whatever we want, so **** you". This is a multi-billion pound firm, I expect they actually have a solicitor or two to come and look in at their paperwork and most arrangements like this have ridiculous clauses in them. My Telewest T&C simply said "We can change this agreement with or without informing you.". And yes, I signed it. I suspect NTL customers signed a similar document.

I don't think this move is fair, especially if they're not publicising it (is Zeus now in their PR dept?) but I doubt it's strictly illegal. Also, as I've tried to say : it may be impossible for them to keep a 1mbit service operating in the fashion in which some users use it.

queball · 9 Feb 2003, 21:36

They mostly push the speed of broadband over being able to download vast quantities of data. They sell low latency and fast page loads; faster downloads, not more downloads. 1GB/day is saturating a 1Mbps downstream for about two and a half hours out of twenty-four; that's quite a lot.

http://www.ntlhome.com/ntl_internet/broadband.asp

ParraCida · 10 Feb 2003, 00:31

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
They mostly push the speed of broadband over being able to download vast quantities of data. They sell low latency and fast page loads; faster downloads, not more downloads. 1GB/day is saturating a 1Mbps downstream for about two and a half hours out of twenty-four; that's quite a lot.

http://www.ntlhome.com/ntl_internet/broadband.asp

two and a half hours is actually nothing.

I've had weeks on a 512 connection transfering over 25GB a week (that is counting upload as well tho that was only 64kb and not fully used).
They changed their rules, didnt tell customers and changed it to something utterly unacceptible for quite a deal of people.

Yes they 'are' wrong, I'd just not pay and download as much as I could and see how long it'd take before I got cut off and get ADSL.

pablissimo · 10 Feb 2003, 00:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ParraCida
two and a half hours is actually nothing.

I've had weeks on a 512 connection transfering over 25GB a week (that is counting upload as well tho that was only 64kb and not fully used).
They changed their rules, didnt tell customers and changed it to something utterly unacceptible for quite a deal of people.

Yes they 'are' wrong, I'd just not pay and download as much as I could and see how long it'd take before I got cut off and get ADSL.

Under the Terms and Conditions (which I've only glanced at), it suggests that any changes to the Terms and Conditions of the provision of service must be announced in writing to customers as well as appearing on the website, and that they can change it when they damn well want, so no luck on a breach of contract stance unless they don't bother sending the letters.

And it also suggests that not paying your bill doesn't mean you just get cut off but you get charged up to 4% above BoE standard lending rate in interest until the payment is made. Bearing in mind that they have your credit card details on file you might find that they only way yo'ure going to get away with it is to cease to use the NTL products until they cut you off for non-payment, otherwise they have more of a case.

But if enough people do it, you might have a shot at 'winning'. Problem is, as they state, it doesn't affect enough people for you to get a non-payment protest of sufficient size for them to care.

iain50 · 10 Feb 2003, 00:52

at the risk of sounding crap with computer stuff, which i am, if i play, say, cs for a while, am i downloading stuff, like where the other players are etc, and if i look at a web site, does that count? my computer is always on, and heavily used by my household, tho not really for downloading mp3's etc, will that take me anywhere near the limits if i am right?

pablissimo · 10 Feb 2003, 00:55

1 gig a day is roughly like downloading 12Kb a second, every second, all day.

CS takes up between 4 and 8 depending on how you've got it set up.

You shouldn't be able to accidentally overrun it on a regular basis then.

Xillah · 10 Feb 2003, 01:14

I want to know how its going to be enforced. I mean, I cant see them cutting somone off when they download a 1.4gb file one day, if they are way bellow it on average. More than likely it would be your average over a month, and if you exceed it 2 or 3 months in a row you get cut off.

It seems a bit queer that somone on a 128kb line gets the same download limit as those on a 1mb line. Maybe have it as .5 for a 128kb line, 1 for a 600kb line and 2 or 3 gig for a 1Mb line.

Zeus · 10 Feb 2003, 01:25

Dante Hicks, no Im not in NTL's PR dept and honestly have no hand in NTL's decision to do this. In fact, I totally disagree with it at the moment. Doesnt mean there are not good reasons for it though, however to take such a decision should only be a last resort.

I have 512k NTL cable and I guess I may be getting contacted by the internet devision of NTL to "warn" me of my excess bandwidth requirements, concidering I 80% of the day run max download/uploads speeds from my system:-/

/me wonders if they do faviours for NTL employees?

Xillah · 10 Feb 2003, 01:32

Hey Zeus, do you know how strictly this will be enforced? Or will it be mainly for people who have it maxed out 24/7? Will it be everywhere or mainly just hight density areas where there are a lot of subscribers?

Any idea?

Zeus · 10 Feb 2003, 01:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Xillah
Hey Zeus, do you know how strictly this will be enforced? Or will it be mainly for people who have it maxed out 24/7? Will it be everywhere or mainly just hight density areas where there are a lot of subscribers?

Any idea?

Honestly m8ty, u know as much as I on this matter

I will however be investigating it when I arrive at work tomorrow.
Part of me is hoping they have ust added it into the agreement, so they can use it to deny serives to all those people running ftp servers 24/7? Although, I wouldnt know any people like that:P

Kurashima · 10 Feb 2003, 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeus
Honestly m8ty, u know as much as I on this matter
I will however be investigating it when I arrive at work tomorrow.
Part of me is hoping they have ust added it into the agreement, so they can use it to deny serives to all those people running ftp servers 24/7? Although, I wouldnt know any people like that:P

Seems pretty clear to me.

NTL is one of the most heavily debt ridden telecoms companies in Europe. Its continued survival is based solely on guarantees to banks that it will meet commitments to pay back interest payments on loans (theyll almost certainly never pay back the loans themselves), and in order to meet the ever increasing interest demands , theyre cutting costs in ways they never thought theyd have to when they originally offered up the service.

The negative publicity will cost them , say , 3% of Broadband users , but ONLY at the end of their contract periods. NTL evidently feel this will be offset by less technically minded users (Families) being the remaining customer base.

A good customer base is one which doesnt understand the product, but you can convince easily youre providing a good service to. I think TBH , they knew they would get a degree of real techheads signing up at the start, and as a lot of Dialup users will tell you, every telecoms company dumps on high volume users if they think theyre not making enough money out of them.

NTL is doing what BT has been doing for ages, and what Sky has done for decades. Writing contracts which users dont read closely enough, and then changing the the terms and conditions to maximise their profits.

Theyll lose a few users. You wont see them cry.

BTW , did you know that Eurotunnel , which is now making a profit , actually has only marginally more debt now than NTL?

I find that quite amusing.

Embroglio · 10 Feb 2003, 01:57

Is this one GB of actual downloads (winmx, kazza, website d/ls etc) or 1GB of incoming connection a day? That'd severely **** up things for people playing online games (FPS, RTS etc)

queball · 10 Feb 2003, 01:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurashima

BTW , did you know that Eurotunnel , which is now making a profit , actually has only marginally more debt now than NTL?

I find that quite amusing.

"The Zeus Effect"

Kurashima · 10 Feb 2003, 02:12

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
"The Zeus Effect"

Im currently debating whether im allowed to laugh at this .......

I guess ill just quietly s******.

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Feb 2003, 02:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Embroglio
Is this one GB of actual downloads (winmx, kazza, website d/ls etc) or 1GB of incoming connection a day? That'd severely **** up things for people playing online games (FPS, RTS etc)

Exactly the same thing you goon

Nodrog · 10 Feb 2003, 02:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Embroglio
Is this one GB of actual downloads (winmx, kazza, website d/ls etc) or 1GB of incoming connection a day? That'd severely **** up things for people playing online games (FPS, RTS etc)

Its exactly the same thing, and even uploading stuff uses some of your download bandwidth (by receiving acks).

Haer · 10 Feb 2003, 03:03

Tbh, now that Ive read a bit more about it, this does nt sound *too bad*. (Basically you can go over 1gb/day on a few times, but not consistently.) Even with Dling a few new games and some Mp3s I can probably stay within that.

The main problem for other users I see for those with more than 1 machine connected to it, and those who use it for things like xbox live,etc. Hopefully, NTL will be sensible and not take things to the letter of the law with these cases(ie "Fair use").

Still, I *really* wish I had gotten an Email or Letter from NTL in advance of this, and preferably an option to cancel my contract with them. Thats the only thing that stills makes me want to say Screw them and get ADSL - But for the moment(Next two weeks for definate), I'll stick with NTL and see what they do. In general Ive found them quite good, so Im willing to overlook this once.

Mirai · 10 Feb 2003, 05:04

I have a 3GB ul/dl limit on my connection (3Mbit Wireless). I never have gone over the limit. Ever.

You know, it isn't hard to HAVE A LIFE.

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Feb 2003, 09:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Haer

I thought they had to send you a letter.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nodrog
Its exactly the same thing, and even uploading stuff uses some of your download bandwidth (by receiving acks).

Stop copying me you gay.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirai
I have a 3GB ul/dl limit on my connection (3Mbit Wireless). I never have gone over the limit. Ever.

You know, it isn't hard to HAVE A LIFE.

What's the point of having broadband if YOU DON'T USE IT?

Mirai · 10 Feb 2003, 10:02

Quote:

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri

What's the point of having broadband if YOU DON'T USE IT?

Replace 'broadband' with 'a life' and answer.

MrL_JaKiri · 10 Feb 2003, 10:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Mirai
Replace 'broadband' with 'a life' and answer.

That's different you goon. You don't optionally pay for life as an upgrade of life over some form of slower life in order to experience things faster.

ps. I hear from a totally unreliable source that BT are planning to introduce a pay-per-meg system if you go over a certain limit. Off the record, on the QT and very hush-hush...

Linea · 10 Feb 2003, 10:29

Bah, your problems are nothing. Here in rejected Australia, I am stuck on a 1 GB per month plan. And I have to pay a set amount for every MB I go over it. This really pisses me off. I got cable because I really liked the idea of being able to download as much as I wanted, for a set price. But, almost on the day I got cable, they introduced the plans, and the company dumped me on a 350 MB per month plan. All other cable companies have followed suit. It's happening everywhere, I have heard so many stories almost identical to mine. I am seriously considering going over to 512 K ADSL Unlimited, because it costs the same as the 3GB per month plan on cable. Anyway, the point is this: For those of you that are on Unlimited Cable. They will introduce the plans, they will introduce fees for going over your set limits, and there will be nothing you can do about it, you will just have to pay for a semi-decent plan, or move to ADSL or something...it's just the way it is, the cable companies don't play fair.