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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 19:14   #1
milo
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[Rambling] politics/law

The Attorney General for England and Wales, is as the name suggests for england and wales, scotland has the lord advocate, are they 'equal' positions? Why did goldsmith give advice regarding the war in iraq but not the lord advocate? if the attorney general is in a higher position why is he only for england and wales? and what about northern ireland? Has anyone ever realised that the way that britain is setup is confusing beyond ****. Who runs this country?!?!?!? is there a schematic somewhere? Why did the welsh get an assembly not a parliment? What do scottish mps do at westminster? Do we run IOM/IOW? what about all the other bits and pieces like gibraltar?

Why does scotland have a seperate legal system? im not being a difficult, its just i don't see the point, isn't it just another layer of red-tape? if westminster is soverign how does scotland deal with westminster laws? or don't they apply to scotland? if they don't why is scotland still part of britain? can 'english' lawyers practise in scotland? Where can i find the CPS equivalent guidelines for scotland? do they have badass laws for smoking the good herb or is it pretty similar? if i commit an offence in england is it 'known about' in scotland if i commit an offence there (previous history/character reference etc)

Im not being paranoid but when you really look into it, the only way i can see this country functioning is by some unseen hand, like the masons. Because otherwise it just doesn't make any ****ing sense.

And is there anywhere i can read about every day life in the soviet union, i don't mean the political theorising but just about everyday life. Everyone had a job right? so could you be fired? transfer jobs? if capitalism was banned and the state provided everything what happened if i was a complete dosser who couldn't be bothered to work? who chose my profession? if i chose to take media studies at uni would i be allowed? and if the utter pointlessness of my degree after uni was realised what did i do about a job? If capitalism was banned did they still have money? The thought of being provided a house by the government going to a shit job that i can nevertheless skive from (or only put 10% effort in) and coming back home to play computer games is kinda appealing.



I realise all the above is a bit of a splattergun approach but i am interested and welcome any help from anyone who knows, and despite the other thread, yahwe if you can comment id appreciate it, also dante/t&f on soviet russia, but no theoretical bullshit , im just curious day to day how life functioned.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 19:27   #2
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

scotland does not have an independent foreign policy.

scotland has autonomy only in a few selected areas.
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Unread 24 Feb 2006, 19:46   #3
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

So does the Attorney general have seniority over the lord advocate? Can you practise in scotland? If there is a seperate judicial system is someones criminal record avialable to both juristictions in a manner that wouldn't be possible (easy) between say spain and britain.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 00:21   #4
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And is there anywhere i can read about every day life in the soviet union, i don't mean the political theorising but just about everyday life.
I lived therethis autumn. Words really, really cannot describe it. It is extremely foreign, and no amount of reading is going to help.
Quote:
Everyone had a job right?
Yes
Quote:
so could you be fired?
No, you could however be arrested for not doing your job.
Quote:
transfer jobs?
Not sure wether you were technically allowed, however it just wasn't done, pretty much regardless of how much you hated your job.
Quote:
if capitalism was banned and the state provided everything what happened if i was a complete dosser who couldn't be bothered to work?
Not doing your assigned job was afaik a criminal offence. However, doing your assigned as badly as you could was(is) on the other hand pretty much the common norm.

"They pretend to pay us; We pretend to work"
"Ani pretendovjat zaplat,a Mbi pretendjovem rabojet" <- horrible russian.

Quote:
who chose my profession?
I do believe you applied for stuff, and then some paperpusher decided. No idea really though.
Quote:
if i chose to take media studies at uni would i be allowed?
Media was a special case, and reserved for diligent party-members.
Quote:
and if the utter pointlessness of my degree after uni was realised what did i do about a job?
You'd get one assigned. However, degrees at the uni's there are extremely rigid and stream-lined. You were/are thought an extremey specific skill-set with no regard for learning generaly methology at all. You might end up incompetent, because the uni's there are basically toss but the degree itself should have been usefull.
Quote:
If capitalism was banned did they still have money?
Yes and currency was invented by Adam Smith around 1750.

Quote:
The thought of being provided a house by the government going to a shit job that i can nevertheless skive from (or only put 10% effort in) and coming back home to play computer games is kinda appealing.
Yeah, a job you hate; no prospects for the future; a shitty cramped apartment; a wife who when she was 20 was hot as ****, but is now a Babushka as wide as she is tall and who, amazingly, *still* haven't learnt to cook. Appealing my ****ing ass.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 00:31   #5
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And is there anywhere i can read about every day life in the soviet union,
A library.
Code:
Auteur : Author
Titre : Title
Editeur : Editor


Titre 	Politics, work, and daily life in the USSR : a survey of former Soviet citizens / edited by James R. Millar.
Editeur 	Cambridge [Cambridgeshire] ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 1987.
xiv, 423 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.

Auteur 	Binyon, Michael.
Titre 	Life in Russia.
Editeur 	London : Hamilton, 1983.

Auteur 	Kerblay, Basile H.
Titre 	Modern Soviet society / Basile Kerblay ; translated by Rupert Swyer.
Editeur 	New York : Pantheon Books, c1983.

Auteur 	Broadfoot, Barry, 1926-
Titre 	Ordinary Russians / Barry Broadfoot.
Editeur 	Toronto, Ont. : McClelland & Stewart, c1989.

Auteur 	Buckley, Mary, 1951-
Titre 	Redefining Russian society and polity[sic] / Mary Buckley.
Editeur 	Boulder, Colo. : Westview Press, 1993.

Auteur 	Turpin, Jennifer E.
Titre 	Reinventing the Soviet self : media and social change in the former Soviet Union / Jennifer Turpin.
Editeur 	Westport, Conn. : Praeger, c1995.

Auteur 	Shipler, David K., 1942-
Titre 	Russia : broken idols, solemn dreams / David K. Shipler.
Editeur 	New York, N.Y. : Times Books, c1983.

Auteur 	Lee, Andrea, 1953-
Titre 	Russian journal / by Andrea Lee.
Editeur 	New York : Random House, c1981.

Auteur 	Smith, Hedrick.
Titre 	The Russians / Hedrick Smith.
Editeur 	New York : Quadrangle/New York Times Book Co., c1976.

Auteur 	Pilkington, Hilary, 1964-
Titre 	Russia's youth and its culture : a nation's constructors and constructed / Hilary Pilkington.
Editeur 	London ; New York : Routledge, 1994.

Titre 	Soviet social problems / edited by Anthony Jones, Walter D. Connor, David E. Powell.
Editeur 	Boulder : Westview Press, 1991.

Titre 	The Soviet worker : illusions and realities / edited by Leonard Schapiro and Joseph Godson.
Editeur 	London : Macmillan, 1981.
That should keep you busy.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 00:35   #6
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Much like Québec, I believe that Scotland has its own civil law system.

go distinct society
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 02:56   #7
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe

Yes and currency was invented by Adam Smith around 1750.
BOLLOCKS!
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 03:07   #8
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
BOLLOCKS!
it was sarcasm you dolt.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 05:58   #9
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And is there anywhere i can read about every day life in the soviet union, i don't mean the political theorising but just about everyday life. Everyone had a job right? so could you be fired? transfer jobs? if capitalism was banned and the state provided everything what happened if i was a complete dosser who couldn't be bothered to work? who chose my profession? if i chose to take media studies at uni would i be allowed? and if the utter pointlessness of my degree after uni was realised what did i do about a job? If capitalism was banned did they still have money? The thought of being provided a house by the government going to a shit job that i can nevertheless skive from (or only put 10% effort in) and coming back home to play computer games is kinda appealing.
Most of this has been covered, but anyway :

Full employment is pretty trivial to achieve, if you don't mind paying for it. As far as I know many Russian enterprises simply over employed people, so it wasn't uncommon for people not only to not work particularly hard, but for there to be no work for people to do. In other sectors no doubt people were working insanely hard. The problem seems to have been one of communication. It was very hard for one sector of the economy to efficiently signal they required more x or y and another sector to say they had a surplus. People tend to hit a target dead on, if they've little other reason to try and exceed expectations. The centralised economy / political system tended to be breed simplistic approaches to problems.

There is the famous (although possibly apochryphal) incident where a shoe factory had to make 1 million shoes as per the 5 year plan. So they did. 1 million left shoes - which is clearly easier from a production point of view than 500k pairs of shoes. Under a market economy you wouldn't be able to get away with such insanity for long, you'd be facing regular feedback via sales figures and so on. In the early USSR it was possible other structures would have managed such "information from below" (e.g. the Soviets) but as they were crushed by Stalin we'll never really know if they could have helped the situation.

On housing : I'm not sure if the Soviet housing was that bad. State housing the world over tends to face the same problems and if you're comparing the Federal Projects in the United States with the Soviet housing I'm not sure if the latter looks too terrible, especially given how extraordinarily bad a starting point the USSR had in 1945 (bad even by European standards). The main problem you seem to hear about is that people had rather small dwellings and even the "successful" people had poor housing (ignoring corruption issues with the Party faithful). And while the former is certainly an issue, I'm not sure if the latter is something the Soviets should have really cared too much about.

As for currency : As hyfe has sarcastically noted, currency has been around a lot longer than capitalism has been the dominant form of production and will probably outlive capitalism (in some form or another). It's just a convenient way of representing value/worth/whatnot. Speaking from a Utopian perspective I would desire a very gradual decline in the importance of currency when dealing with staple goods but I would want to make sure we didn't lose feedback mechanisms (as discussed). The Oyster card, currently used in London, could be an indication of things to come (obviously I'd want privacy concerns resolved). Here, even people on Freedom Passes have their journies added (I presume) to the total journey statistics. So if the 12 bus from Dulwich to Oxford Circus proves increasingly popular, they can easily lay on more of that bus type, even if all the people riding the bus are doing so for free.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 14:04   #10
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
I lived there this autumn.
what?

Quote:
Yes and currency was invented by Adam Smith around 1750.
It wasnt a stupid question, afaik some Marxists favour the abolition of money or equally retarded ideas.

Last edited by Nodrog; 25 Feb 2006 at 14:11.
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Unread 25 Feb 2006, 14:08   #11
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

I just assumed i'd fallen through time and space into a parrallel universe again.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 15:48   #12
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Most of this has been covered, but anyway :

Full employment is pretty trivial to achieve, if you don't mind paying for it. As far as I know many Russian enterprises simply over employed people, so it wasn't uncommon for people not only to not work particularly hard, but for there to be no work for people to do.
I can verify this. Russian enterprises have, and still do, always over employed people. There are a ridicilous number of people working in "non-value generating jobs", such as removing snow/litter/etc without any tools whatsoever, aswell as a ridicilous number of security guards *everywhere* who doesn't do *anything* *ever*. Just as there are ****loads of security guards, there are ****loads of secretaries in the corporations too. A fair amount of these are there for when their boss wants some private relaxation (seriously; Russians are pragmatic and amoral on alot of issues). Add to that, most people will utterly refuse to help you with anything that's in any way not in their job-description, so it's basically inefficieny put into system It's really quite impressive.

AFAIK even for international manufacterers operating in RUssia, the norm is that they need atleast 50% more people than in other countries to operate at the same efficiency.
Quote:
On housing : I'm not sure if the Soviet housing was that bad. State housing the world over tends to face the same problems and if you're comparing the Federal Projects in the United States with the Soviet housing I'm not sure if the latter looks too terrible, especially given how extraordinarily bad a starting point the USSR had in 1945 (bad even by European standards). The main problem you seem to hear about is that people had rather small dwellings and even the "successful" people had poor housing (ignoring corruption issues with the Party faithful). And while the former is certainly an issue, I'm not sure if the latter is something the Soviets should have really cared too much about.
I can verify this too. People in St.Petersburg/Moscow generally had alot smaller apartments than the standards over here. However, although everything generally looked old and in need of paint, it was always warm, never too drafty and the plumbing worked. Soo.. old, ugly and in working order

Other random tidbits (from present day) is that at the most prestigous University in all Russia, Moscos State University (MGU) you had to bring your old toilet-paper.

The state-pension is about 100 rubles a month, which is about 4 pounds, which is totally impossible to live off in Moscow. However, perfectly possible to live off anywhere else. The large number of beggars are basically just stubborn people wallowing in their own misery. They do get free public transport though, where they can yell, bicker and generally annoy younger people who have commited travesties such as not tieing their shoelaces.

The clubs there are really ****ing nice though. Watch out for the police, and be warned that 5/6 the girls you're trying to pull are prostitutes. Oh, the weed's fairly cheap there, but it evens out with the horrible quality.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 15:52   #13
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
what?

It wasnt a stupid question, afaik some Marxists favour the abolition of money or equally retarded ideas.
The answer not being totally self-evident, doesn't preclude the question being ignorant.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 17:06   #14
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And is there anywhere i can read about every day life in the soviet union,
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
I lived therethis autumn.
it was at this point that you began to look like a retard.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 17:26   #15
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it was at this point that you began to look like a retard.
.. the not-entirely-perfect english didn't help much either I guess

Spending half a year meeting random Russians and talking to them gave my a hell of a lot more insight into how it used to be than any amount of book-reading would have, and thus in my mind, a much bigger qualifier for "I know what I'm talking about" than "I read several books a couple of years about it", especially considering how out thouch alot of russian literature is with the wide diversion between the intellegencia and the rest of the people there. (still, compared to any eastern Europeer I'm probably ignorant as **** though)

Books are only usefull when you can actually relate to what's in them.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 19:07   #16
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Books are only usefull when you can actually relate to what's in them.
Although experience is quite important in understanding the emotions and feelings of what happened in a said era, that is a very post-modernist way of thinking.
I do believe with the tendencies in history and sociology, you'll be able to have a less political and more socially inclined analysis in books. Everything is a historical document these days, including people who are telling you about how it was. That said, books aren't useless, they'll tell you the facts as objectively1 as they can, and give you an idea of it all. Most people who write about certain countries speak the language and go there often enough to do research, so don't believe that historians or sociologists just read a book and write a book about another book. They go collect data right then and there, talking and investigating, just like you, minus the prostitutes mayhaps.

1: Objectivity is relative to the author, don't think I mean everyone's 100% objective, some will say the USSR was the best thing ever, some will say that Russia is finally off to a good start after a horrible XXX years of dictatorial governments.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 19:36   #17
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

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Originally Posted by hyfe
you had to bring your old toilet-paper.
Please please please tell me you meant own.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 19:39   #18
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Might be just me, but I always felt there was a really distinct differences between merely knowing, and actually (urg, lacking words) realising something.

Previously, when someone mentioned 'the buzz of the big city' I could intellectually understand what they were talking about, while now I can actually relate to it. Likewise, the descriptions in Bladerunner of a city on the edge of despair suddenly makes a damn lot more sense to me having lived in Moscow.

Which is my point, the feeling of Moscow, how its people act and the extremely prevailing 'look the other way'-attitude are integral parts of Russian history and big parts of its history can only be understood in light of this attitude. (seriously, I saw a newly rich guy drive over a dog and mangle it really, really ****ing badly (pieces flying here and there), and the dog owner, a sweet little grandmother ran over and started crying... and the man, naturally, started yelling at her and swearing like ****ing hell until she broke down sobbing and eventually just wimpered off... now.. out of the 80-100 people who walked by.. guess how many stopped? .. only the two foreigners.. anywhere sane this would have attracted a crowd, and the ****ing asshole would promptly have gotten his ass beat up for how he treated that lady).

So without this understanding of the basic realities, I still say you can't actually understand what you're reading; you can merely read it and accept it as factual; but you will never ever have even a chance at getting the subtleties/niceties of history.
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Unread 26 Feb 2006, 19:40   #19
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

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Originally Posted by sniborp
Please please please tell me you meant own.
Well.. old would have been well in touch with the old 'it ain't used 'till both sides are full' mentality, but no, there was no requirement for the toiletpaper to be old
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 01:19   #20
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Here's a website about DDR (Deutsche Demokratische Republik, or GDR) propaganda during the cold war. Check out the sections III and IV where you get interesting caricatures and material for propagandists.

You'll note they talk about labour shortage as if it's a great thing.
East Berlin had 60 000 Berliners working in West Berlin for greater wage. Can't keep their workers home, that's pride right there.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 01:29   #21
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Scotland's legal system

England conquers Wales in 14th century. Legal systems (as they were) merged.

England didn't conquer Scotland - instead, an Act of Union in 1707 did the job. Scotland got to keep an indepentant legal system.


The two legal systems never merged when the two countries formed the predecessor to the United Kingdom. That's why you have different subsidary courts in Scotland (below the House of Lords), e.g. the Court of Session., as well as the Lord Advocate in place of the Attorney-General. Scottish law is just different enough in some places to cause confusion, but none of it really matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_legal_system
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 02:41   #22
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

The reason for the rambling nature of my original post was that i happened to be reading about he SU on wiki and then happened to go into british history, i was just struck by the polar opposites in approach to 'society'. Britain seems far far more anarchic in its approach than any developed country i can think of, no codified constitution the power of parliment/pm etc. The SU being an example of a centralised orderly dictatorial approach to everything and britain basically sticking bits on whereever the hell it chooses.

I can see the benefits of our approach but it just seems unnecessarily complicated, the historical reasoning for wales having a assembly and scotland a parliment are obvious but their relevance to the UK today seems absurd. Do scottish people feel alienated from the rest of the UK because of the seperate legislature? Incidently the 'not proven' verdict offered in scottish courts completely laughable, the state can effectively say 'you were presumed innocent until proven guilty, we can't prove you guilty but we don't like you so we're going to say we think you're guilty its just can't prove it', even third world shitholes don't have that level of mongchopness. I understand the american system of governance far far far far more easily than that of my own country. I honestly have little idea whos' doing what where in whatever part of the country and how that ties in to anything else.

As for life in the SU *shrug* i was just interested.

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...yeah life is so much different and better
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 02:47   #23
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Britain seems far far more anarchic in its approach than any developed country i can think of
it's not anarchy.

It's merely a very complicated form of order.

do always remember that common sense is a "most English [she would say British nowadays] virtue"
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 02:49   #24
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Incidently the 'not proven' verdict offered in scottish courts completely laughable, the state can effectively say 'you were presumed innocent until proven guilty, we can't prove you guilty but we don't like you so we're going to say we think you're guilty its just can't prove it', even third world shitholes don't have that level of mongchopness.
'not guilty' is not obviously superior.

but a finding of 'innocent' would imply that their innocence was on trial.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:19   #25
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's not anarchy.

It's merely a very complicated form of order.

do always remember that common sense is a "most English [she would say British nowadays] virtue"

I prefer the simpler forms of order, that way when the government tries to oppress im more easily aware of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
'not guilty' is not obviously superior.

but a finding of 'innocent' would imply that their innocence was on trial.

This was in the context of scottish law, having a dual outcome where the state can either convict you or not convict you is far preferable to one where the state can take the middle - dictatorial - road and say 'you're a guilty pleb but we can't prove it, BUT YOU ARE GUILTY'. Its the same idiotic reasoning fairists use 'oh i know they exist, i can't prove it but they exist'

Incidently id argue that regardless of what the man says, your innocence is on trial. The organs of the government bring a prosecution against you if they presume you to be guilty, it is a necessity of going to trial. Anyone on remand for example is going to trial to fight for their innocence and freedom. Does the state bother compensating you for taking your freedom if you're found not guilty?


btw i can't fnd the information im looking for but would you happen to know if the scottish police force is accountable to the home office/SoS? do acts of westminster like PACE (1984) apply to scotland?

Speak up you scottish heathens!!! how the **** is your country run!
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:42   #26
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it's not anarchy.

It's merely a very complicated form of order.
Anarchy doesn't imply disorder, in political senses anyway.
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:46   #27
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Anarchy doesn't imply disorder, in political senses anyway.
he wasn't using it in a political sense.

he was using it as a synonym for disorder.

you really are getting worse ...
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 17:49   #28
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
he wasn't using it in a political sense.

he was using it as a synonym for disorder.

you really are getting worse ...
Worse... or... better!
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Unread 27 Feb 2006, 18:21   #29
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Britain seems far far more anarchic in its approach than any developed country i can think of, no codified constitution the power of parliment/pm etc. The SU being an example of a centralised orderly dictatorial approach to everything and britain basically sticking bits on whereever the hell it chooses.
Simplicity is only a desired end in certain circumstances. A simpler welfare benefits application system would probably be better because it would mean people would know what the hell they're entitled to, how to apply, how to appeal and so on. But a simpler welfare system overall might not be desirable (in the current economy at least) because it might miss out nuances in what people need. It's good that there are different benefits available to the disabled/elederley/mothers and so on.

In others words, where there is complexity there is often a reason for it.

p.s. Assuming you're not trolling.
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 04:59   #30
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

im not (here anyway) im not advocating simplicity per se, just clarity, im being serious in that i know more about the US system than britain, and noone has been able to help with my quest to find out the relationship between the attorney general/lord advocate and them to the cabinet or for example if scotland even has he equivalent of PACE or is accountable under PACE, ive always taken high profile acts of westminster to apply everywhere, suddenly the mention of 'england and wales' which you pretty much ignore becomes relevant. Do the scots even know how their country works?
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Unread 28 Feb 2006, 05:11   #31
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Re: [Rambling] politics/law

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
im not (here anyway) im not advocating simplicity per se, just clarity, im being serious in that i know more about the US system than britain, and noone has been able to help with my quest to find out the relationship between the attorney general/lord advocate and them to the cabinet or for example if scotland even has he equivalent of PACE or is accountable under PACE, ive always taken high profile acts of westminster to apply everywhere, suddenly the mention of 'england and wales' which you pretty much ignore becomes relevant. Do the scots even know how their country works?
you may be trying to blame others for your own failings
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