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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 15:36   #51
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Re: Next round stats?

whats with this removing races shit.......
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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 23:24   #52
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Re: Next round stats?

changes made

Ive nerfed cath a bit and beefed up xan a bit.
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=530396683913
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 11:58   #53
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Re: Next round stats?

Also i think Cat init numbers must be different. Now Fi/Co/Cr/Bs emp at same time. It means Cat vs Cat = draw, no tactics at all.

Like e.g Beetle could be slower than Spider. So spiders could emp first.
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 12:44   #54
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Re: Next round stats?

Am I alone in my concern about Ter?
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 13:19   #55
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Re: Next round stats?

Imo, Xan FR is only worse than Terran BS because there is ship that out-init it (Rogue), but at the same time, the remaining Xan ships are imo way better than what Terrans have at their disposal. Isn't that a balance?
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 13:34   #56
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Imo, Xan FR is only worse than Terran BS because there is ship that out-init it (Rogue), but at the same time, the remaining Xan ships are imo way better than what Terrans have at their disposal. Isn't that a balance?
You won't achieve balance. If a ship is slightly OP then whole alliances spam it. If it is slightly weaker then everyone avoids it like the plague
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 13:59   #57
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Re: Next round stats?

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
You won't achieve balance. If a ship is slightly OP then whole alliances spam it. If it is slightly weaker then everyone avoids it like the plague
I mean, the only reason why Terran is good is because its BS fleet out-inits everyone. If this changes, Terran will become like Xan, only worse in every aspect.
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 15:21   #58
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Re: Next round stats?

my concern is about xans...

xan stoping xans proved to be a bad move... and with a ship that cant make alliance eta? even worse.. firing fi with t2? bleh...

maybe if u give zik one more roiding class (fr one), with a nice init hitting fi, can help fix this problem... also, making zik more popular, can help universe get stronger against terran BS...
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Unread 30 Sep 2016, 22:32   #59
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Re: Next round stats?

Also ZIK has 2 BS ship stealers. Cutter & Marauder. After Mantis lost T2 not sure why the hell to zik need 2 BS stealers.

ETD class was very good. I would love to see it again. That mix gave a lot of fun to play.
Now it seems with ZIK will be very hard to play, you can't solo land on x2 less guy because of too big losses even if you stealing 80%+, unless you def and willing to someone crash.
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Unread 1 Oct 2016, 02:08   #60
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Re: Next round stats?

I think going to 6 races is going to have to be a thing.

Terran- 1 or 2 low init ships and 5-8 Chunky armored ships with good targeting.

Cath 5-7 emp ships of varying Emp and 1-2 Kill ships that are NOT abusive but still able to work in defense strats.

Xan 2-3 prefire kill ships of limited targeting and 4-7 2nd/3rd firing ships of average targeting

Zik 4-7 Steal Ships with Good Targeting and 2-3 Kill ships with decent downward firing init.

Etd(Proposed Change) Etd would get 3-4 Emp Ships and 3-4 cloaked ships and be a hybrid between Xan/Cath.


newRace6 Would be a combination of 3-4 Steal ships 2-3 Emp ships and 1-2 Chunky armored Ships merging some of Zik and Cath+ Terran to round out the holes.

I know i've been out of the game for a bit, but i feel based on last rounds stats and the breakdown of ships in uni, we Really need to have Balanced Attack Fleets in order to prevent 1-2 races from running away.
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Unread 1 Oct 2016, 09:43   #61
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I think going to 6 races is going to have to be a thing.

Terran- 1 or 2 low init ships and 5-8 Chunky armored ships with good targeting.

Cath 5-7 emp ships of varying Emp and 1-2 Kill ships that are NOT abusive but still able to work in defense strats.

Xan 2-3 prefire kill ships of limited targeting and 4-7 2nd/3rd firing ships of average targeting

Zik 4-7 Steal Ships with Good Targeting and 2-3 Kill ships with decent downward firing init.

Etd(Proposed Change) Etd would get 3-4 Emp Ships and 3-4 cloaked ships and be a hybrid between Xan/Cath.


newRace6 Would be a combination of 3-4 Steal ships 2-3 Emp ships and 1-2 Chunky armored Ships merging some of Zik and Cath+ Terran to round out the holes.

I know i've been out of the game for a bit, but i feel based on last rounds stats and the breakdown of ships in uni, we Really need to have Balanced Attack Fleets in order to prevent 1-2 races from running away.
Why does 6 races with 2 roiders allow more balance than 4 with 3 roiders?

People have got so used to factoring ETD in that they have forgotten it is the core the stat issues (incompetence excluded) in the first place. Going to 5 caused too much hard work to balance and creating another half/half race won't stop that.

Cloak is also OP, intact way too OP for the way it operates in this game.

Steal has been too nerfed because of tearful players and someone came up with idea of charge 3 mill resources a ship for Terran BS and that all went shit after that.

There is so many basic issues with what we already have, throwing more ships at it and creating ridiculous races that make no sense and wouldn't be used don't heko
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Unread 1 Oct 2016, 10:27   #62
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Re: Next round stats?

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
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Unread 1 Oct 2016, 19:27   #63
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Why does 6 races with 2 roiders allow more balance than 4 with 3 roiders?


Cloak is also OP, intact way too OP for the way it operates in this game.
Wit 4 races 3 roiders you will have too much overlap with pod classes that it will make 2 races far better than the other 2.

With 6 races and 2 roiders you have DEFINED team ups and makes alliance actually have to pick out race distribution to cover all classes, or at worst it forces alliance to pick 2 roiding classes from the start of the round which I think should be the goal. However I am in the minorty in this opinion for sure.
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Unread 1 Oct 2016, 21:03   #64
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Re: Next round stats?

Paisley informed me that his stats are now done
I'm gonna look them over tomorrow myself
If you still have any concerns about them, please speak up
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Unread 2 Oct 2016, 11:54   #65
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Wit 4 races 3 roiders you will have too much overlap with pod classes that it will make 2 races far better than the other 2.

With 6 races and 2 roiders you have DEFINED team ups and makes alliance actually have to pick out race distribution to cover all classes, or at worst it forces alliance to pick 2 roiding classes from the start of the round which I think should be the goal. However I am in the minorty in this opinion for sure.
Before I get into whether I agree with this, let me restate your position to make sure I understand it correctly. What you fear from 4x3 is that some 2-race combinations have more teamups between each other than others, whereas with 6x2, you can make sure each race has exactly 1 teamup with 1 other race, starting off with a sense of balance that's hard to recreate in later steps.

Assuming that's characterization is correct... my initial feeling was that you were correct, and thus I was going to agree with you, for roughly the same reason that I don't like 4x2: it gives certain pod classes (and the races they belong to) teamups but not others. But, after playing around with a spreadsheet for a moment, I think we were both wrong.

Here's a 6x2 setup that matches the pod distribution what (I think) you like to see in a set of stats:
Ter: Fi/Fr
Cat: Fi/Cr
Xan: De/Cr
Zik: Co/De
Etd: Co/Bs
Six: Fr/Bs

So if you want to go Fi, you go Ter/Cat. If you want to go Bs, you go Etd/Six. Or, if you think Xan is the strongest race, you can either pick Cat or Zik as teamup options.

Here's a 4x3 that also ensures that each roiding fleet has a single teamup option available, and additionally, no 2 races have multiple teamups options available:
Ter: Fi/Co/Bs
Cat: Fr/De/Bs
Xan: Fi/Fr/Cr
Zik: Co/De/Cr

Ter/Xan Fi, Ter/Zik Co, Cat/Xan Fr, Cat/Zik De, Xan/Zik Cr, and Ter/Cat Bs. No duplicates.

I paid no attention to assigning pod classes to races that traditionally 'own' them (Cat Co or Ter De, for instance) to keep the problem simple, but other than that, I think both of these setups would satisfy you.

Am I correct? Because if I am, see no reason to favour 4x3 over 6x2 (or 6x2 over 4x3).
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Unread 2 Oct 2016, 22:23   #66
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Paisley informed me that his stats are now done
I'm gonna look them over tomorrow myself
If you still have any concerns about them, please speak up
The corsair and cutlass steal eachother with same init. This creates some really funky bcalcs.
Since the side that sent less value still caps ships even if the other side stole all his ships.
If thats not clear test with 50k corsair vs 100k cutlass.
Ofc ziks dont have fi or co pods and if they attack with fi/co its likely theres other ships there too but still nice if they dont have same init.
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Unread 4 Oct 2016, 10:08   #67
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post

Am I correct? Because if I am, see no reason to favour 4x3 over 6x2 (or 6x2 over 4x3).
If the 4x3 set is following that basic template and just moving the races around as to what set up for what race then im fine with that. But in my experience any time we do 3 pod sets Cloaked races ALWAYS have a huge advantage meaning Xan/Etd would be very strong especially if the targeting is done in such a way that fi/co fr/de or cr/bs are similar in targets that they can team up together.

As for the 6x2 setup I prefer it as its much easier to balance stats with more spread out classes and a limit of 7 or 8 ships per race with no race having more than 3 T2's(Gives each race 10-11 targetings, or 1-2 classes that are only targeted by one ship(weakness or strength))

Myz I've always respected you and that you understand balance. But I don't trust others to do the same infact making stats is more of a puzzle than it is a number crunch and not enough people see all the moving pieces. Especially some of the past stats makers/ stats run. But I am just a crazy USA Lune who like math and complex puzzles. Will the stats next round make me play unlikely, and at this point only 20~~ or so members of the community actually contribute on the forums in any meaningful way that its such a gross misrepresentation of what the community wants its staggering.

2 pod 3 pod, 4 race 5 race or 6 race I couldnt care, what i care about it balance and so far, I haven't seen it.
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Unread 4 Oct 2016, 20:51   #68
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Re: Next round stats?

I (ab)used my privileges to edit Paisleys stats a bit

Shortlist of changes this far:
Mantis: Added De as t2 to prevent cat cr combo needing 6 ships
Xan Fi: Got nerfed
Zik Cr: Got nerfed
Corsair: Got nerfed
Overall: Made the stats a little less offensive and balance them out a bit

Changes to make tomorrow:
Ter Bs: Nerf it
Emp: To check
Pirate & Syren & Bolt Thrower: Fix poor t2 eff
Overall: Balance the stats a bit more

Beta will shortly restart based on these changes. Feel free to try them out. Tomorrow evening beta will halt again for the 2nd set of changes.
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Unread 4 Oct 2016, 22:12   #69
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Re: Next round stats?

I'm done with stats analysis for today, but if you post again tomorrow after your changes, I'll run another set of calcs.
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Unread 5 Oct 2016, 20:22   #70
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
I (ab)used my privileges to edit Paisleys stats a bit

Shortlist of changes this far:
Mantis: Added De as t2 to prevent cat cr combo needing 6 ships
Xan Fi: Got nerfed
Zik Cr: Got nerfed
Corsair: Got nerfed
Overall: Made the stats a little less offensive and balance them out a bit

Changes to make tomorrow:
Ter Bs: Nerf it
Emp: To check
Pirate & Syren & Bolt Thrower: Fix poor t2 eff
Overall: Balance the stats a bit more

Beta will shortly restart based on these changes. Feel free to try them out. Tomorrow evening beta will halt again for the 2nd set of changes.
Ok tonights changes:
Ter Bs: Got nerfed + Bolt Thrower now prefires it at t2
T2 issues: Mostly fixed
Emp: Balanced out the effs. Kept the creators original emp eff % design & init design. Will sleep on it, if any inits need changing.
Overall: Applied some last balancing actions

Beta server has been reset and will start ticking again at 19:30 GMT
Tomorrow evening i'll go through the calcs again to make sure i didn't miss anything. If you spot anything, feel free to let me know. But stats should be alot more balanced now.
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Unread 5 Oct 2016, 22:50   #71
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Re: Next round stats?

Alright, ran the numbers. All attack fleets can hit 6 other fleets, except for Ter Bs, which hits 5, and Cat Cr, which hits 7. That's not enough of a spread to worry about. The significant differences between the fleets are all defensive:

Code:
Roids:  Ter De      Ter Bs      Cat Co      Cat Cr      Xan Fi      Xan Fr      Zik De      Zik Cr
Ter De  Immune      Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Ter Bs  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Immune      Immune      Vulnerable  Immune    
Cat Co  Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Cat Cr  Vulnerable  Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Xan Fi  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Immune      Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Xan Fr  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Immune      Immune    
Zik De  Immune      Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Zik Cr  Immune      Immune      Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
I suspect the reason Cat does so badly defensively has to do with my methodology: if you're hitting 70% of your own value, Cats will almost never be able to stop a well-constructed roiding fleet.

The strength of Ter is entirely due to their powerful anti-Co and anti-De ships, and the fact that both Cr fleets are fairly bad against Ter's anti-Cr ship. That doesn't sound so bad, but those 3 classes comprise 5 of the 8 roiding fleets, meaning other races are going to have a hard time catching up. It's much better balanced if you assume Ter makes Harpies instead of Syren and Wyvern, but the latter two ships are so much better than the Harpy that it's actually better to split your value.

Xan Fi has a rough deal in the Fireblade and Ghost. You need Fireblade for anti-De, but you also need the Ghost for anti-Fi, even though it's just T2. On top of that, you need 2 more ships to cover Cr and Bs, for a full 6-ship fleet to cover all classes. Despite that fairly major drawback, they're pretty much fine.

Xan Fr has a similar problem, but at least the Ghost covers Co as well, so they don't need to build any Phantom for yet more double-coverage. There's an interesting choice between going for Siege plus Bolt Thrower or Banshee plus Peacekeeper. Both options are weak against Xan Fr, but Bolt Thrower is good against Ter Bs, at least, so I figure that's the option to pick. That also gives Xan Fr one of the 2 4-ship fleet in the stats, alongside (who else) Ter Bs. This in turn makes them pretty strong. I'd say overpowered if it weren't for Ter.

Zik is what Ter would be if their fast ships fired at 1 roiding fleet instead of 2. Both fleets are mediocre, Cr a bit better than De. Cutlass helps a lot by covering 2 targets that both roiding fleets lack. Bucc to cover Cr, since the Pirate is awful against Zik Cr. It's better to get killed by a ship with better init than to get stolen by one.

My overall opinion is that Jintao's nerfs to Ter Bs have swapped Ter Bs and Ter De from #1/#2 to #2/#1. Now Ter De needs a nerf. I feel like the only viable option is improving the Fireblade's Init to 4. That in turn requires nerfing the Ghost's to 5, I think. Xan will still be immune to Fi incs, but the counter will be off-class. Ghost to Init 6 (instead of 5) makes Xan Fi a lot stronger, so that's probably a step too far.

The next thing I'm looking at is Zik De. The Clipper's fast Init is pointless, since Co is a pure-EMP class. Maybe swapping the types on Clipper and Cutter might improve things? Looks like a fairly local change, only impacts (annihilates) the ability of Ter Bs to roid Zik De. The main drawback of this change is that it buffs Ter De even more by providing a better teamup partner... Urgh. I don't really see what else to do about it though. If the swap is too annoying to work out, then we might just have to accept that Zik De sucks.

I'm also seeing a problem with Buccaneer and Rogue cross stealing at the same Init. Same goes for Corsair and Cutlass. Can't have that.

Finally, I feel like the Effs of EMP ships might need a small buff. They're already around 170%, which is on the high side, but with highly offensive stats like these, I expect people will concentrate more value in their attack fleets, making it harder for EMP fleets to get much done than if people spread their value around.

P.S. Here's the slightly more detailed overview:
Code:
* Ter De
** Ter De vs Ter De
   Ter De ( -33003) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Wyvern          ( -28394) = Recall
   Ter De ( -33003) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Wyvern          ( -48569) = Recall
   Ter De is immune to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Ter Bs
   Ter De (-172549) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Wyvern          (  -9365) = Recall
   Ter De (-172549) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Wyvern          (  -9006) = Recall
   Ter Bs is immune to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Cat Co
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Viper           ( -97270) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Viper+Mantis    ( -87324) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Viper           ( -98189) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Viper+Mantis    ( -87931) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Cat Cr
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Xan Fi
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Xan Fr
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Xan Fr is vulnerable to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Zik De
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Ter De  !

** Ter De vs Zik Bs
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Ter De (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Ter De  !

* Ter Bs
** Ter Bs vs Ter De
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Chimera         ( -68390) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Syren           ( -34984) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Chimera+Syren   (-103374) = Land
   Ter Bs ( -32987) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Chimera         (-141318) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Syren           ( -34984) = Land
   Ter Bs ( -32987) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Chimera+Syren   (-176302) = Land
   Ter De is vulnerable to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Ter Bs
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Syren           ( -70004) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Syren           ( -70004) = Land
   Ter Bs is vulnerable to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Cat Co
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Tarantula       ( -46652) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Tarantula       ( -46652) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Cat Cr
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Tarantula       ( -55966) = Land
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Tarantula       ( -56807) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Xan Fi
   Ter Bs ( -33637) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Bolt Thrower    ( -28262) = Recall
   Ter Bs ( -33637) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Bolt Thrower    ( -28262) = Recall
   Xan Fi is immune to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Xan Fr
   Ter Bs ( -59647) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Bolt Thrower    ( -50100) = Recall
   Ter Bs ( -59647) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Bolt Thrower    ( -50100) = Recall
   Xan Fr is immune to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Zik De
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Cutter          ( -68700) = Land
   Ter Bs ( -31661) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Cutter          (-185339) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Ter Bs!

** Ter Bs vs Zik Bs
   Ter Bs (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Marauder        ( -91800) = Land
   Ter Bs ( -86982) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Marauder        ( -81229) = Recall
   Zik Bs is immune to Ter Bs!

* Cat Co
** Cat Co vs Ter De
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Phoenix         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Pegasus         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Phoenix+Pegasus (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Phoenix         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Pegasus         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co ( -11758) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Phoenix+Pegasus (  +2351) = Recall
   Ter De is immune to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Ter Bs
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Phoenix         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Phoenix         (     +0) = Land
   Ter Bs is vulnerable to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Cat Co
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Spider          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Spider          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Cat Cr
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Spider          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Spider          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Xan Fi
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Phantom         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Ghost           (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Phantom+Ghost   (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Phantom         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Ghost           (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Phantom+Ghost   (     +0) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Xan Fr
   Cat Co (  -7851) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Ghost           (  +1570) = Recall
   Cat Co ( -97176) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Ghost           ( +19435) = Recall
   Xan Fr is immune to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Zik De
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Clipper         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Clipper         (     +0) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Cat Co !

** Cat Co vs Zik Bs
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Clipper         (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Clipper         (     +0) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Cat Co !

* Cat Cr
** Cat Cr vs Ter De
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Dragon          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Dragon          (     +0) = Land
   Ter De is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Ter Bs
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Dragon          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr ( -21880) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Dragon          (  +4376) = Recall
   Ter Bs is immune to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Cat Co
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Mantis          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Mantis          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Cat Cr
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Mantis          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Mantis          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Xan Fi
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Bomber          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Bomber          (     +0) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Xan Fr
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Bomber          (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Bomber          (     +0) = Land
   Xan Fr is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Zik De
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Buccaneer       (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Buccaneer       (     +0) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

** Cat Cr vs Zik Bs
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Buccaneer       (     +0) = Land
   Cat Cr (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Buccaneer       (     +0) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Cat Cr   !

* Xan Fi
** Xan Fi vs Ter De
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Phoenix         ( -34996) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Phoenix         ( -34996) = Land
   Ter De is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Ter Bs
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Phoenix         ( -70008) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Phoenix         ( -70008) = Land
   Ter Bs is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Cat Co
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Beetle          ( -96187) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Beetle          ( -95436) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Cat Cr
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Beetle          ( -46666) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Beetle          ( -46666) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Xan Fi
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Xan Fi ( -47657) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Ghost           ( -25464) = Recall
   Xan Fi ( -47657) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Fireblade+Ghost ( -60462) = Recall
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Xan Fi ( -47657) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Ghost           ( -60461) = Recall
   Xan Fi ( -47657) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Fireblade+Ghost ( -95459) = Recall
   Xan Fi is immune to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Xan Fr
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Xan Fi (-314151) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Ghost           ( -10155) = Recall
   Xan Fi (-314151) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Fireblade+Ghost ( -72199) = Recall
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Xan Fi (-314151) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Ghost           ( -10265) = Recall
   Xan Fi (-314151) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Fireblade+Ghost ( -72309) = Recall
   Xan Fr is immune to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Zik De
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

** Xan Fi vs Zik Bs
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Xan Fi (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Xan Fi !

* Xan Fr
** Xan Fr vs Ter De
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Syren           ( -34984) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Syren           ( -34984) = Land
   Ter De is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Ter Bs
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Syren           ( -70004) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Syren           ( -70004) = Land
   Ter Bs is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Cat Co
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Viper           (-125711) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Viper           (-232196) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Cat Cr
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Roach           ( -29314) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Roach           ( -29058) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Xan Fi
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Banshee         ( -92222) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Bolt Thrower    ( -34990) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Banshee+Bolt Thrower(-127213) = Land
   Xan Fr ( -17156) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Banshee         (-265869) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Bolt Thrower    ( -34990) = Land
   Xan Fr ( -17163) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Banshee+Bolt Thrower(-300858) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Xan Fr
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Bolt Thrower    ( -62029) = Land
   Xan Fr (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Bolt Thrower    ( -62029) = Land
   Xan Fr is vulnerable to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Zik De
   Xan Fr ( -50571) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Rogue           ( -24884) = Recall
   Xan Fr ( -50571) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Rogue           ( -24884) = Recall
   Zik De is immune to Xan Fr  !

** Xan Fr vs Zik Bs
   Xan Fr (-265392) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Rogue           ( -11513) = Recall
   Xan Fr (-265392) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Rogue           ( -10058) = Recall
   Zik Bs is immune to Xan Fr  !

* Zik De
** Zik De vs Ter De
   Zik De ( -42768) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Wyvern          ( -26439) = Recall
   Zik De ( -42758) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Wyvern          ( -61434) = Recall
   Ter De is immune to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Ter Bs
   Zik De (-223589) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Wyvern          ( -10840) = Recall
   Zik De (-223579) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Wyvern          ( -10366) = Recall
   Ter Bs is immune to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Cat Co
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Viper           (-113331) = Land
   Zik De (     +6) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Zik De (     +9) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Viper+Mantis    (-107104) = Land
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Viper           (-114400) = Land
   Zik De (     +6) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Zik De (     +9) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Viper+Mantis    (-107809) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Cat Cr
   Zik De (     +6) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Zik De (     +6) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Xan Fi
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -34997) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Xan Fr
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Fireblade       ( -62044) = Land
   Xan Fr is vulnerable to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Zik De
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Zik De !

** Zik De vs Zik Bs
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik De (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Cutlass         ( -70005) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Zik De !

* Zik Bs
** Zik Bs vs Ter De
   Zik Bs ( -44019) attacking Ter De defending with unflakked Dragon          ( -26190) = Recall
   Zik Bs ( -44016) attacking Ter De defending with   flakked Dragon          ( -61185) = Recall
   Ter De is immune to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Ter Bs
   Zik Bs (-115083) attacking Ter Bs defending with unflakked Dragon          ( -68407) = Recall
   Zik Bs (-115059) attacking Ter Bs defending with   flakked Dragon          ( -70407) = Recall
   Ter Bs is immune to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Cat Co
   Zik Bs (     +7) attacking Cat Co defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Zik Bs (     +7) attacking Cat Co defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Cat Co is vulnerable to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Cat Cr
   Zik Bs (     +7) attacking Cat Cr defending with unflakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Zik Bs (     +7) attacking Cat Cr defending with   flakked Mantis          ( -46653) = Land
   Cat Cr is vulnerable to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Xan Fi
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with unflakked Bomber          ( -34996) = Land
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Xan Fi defending with   flakked Bomber          ( -69993) = Land
   Xan Fi is vulnerable to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Xan Fr
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Xan Fr defending with unflakked Bomber          ( -62042) = Land
   Zik Bs ( -31111) attacking Xan Fr defending with   flakked Bomber          (-221270) = Land
   Xan Fr is vulnerable to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Zik De
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with unflakked Buccaneer       ( -35002) = Land
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Zik De defending with   flakked Buccaneer       ( -35002) = Land
   Zik De is vulnerable to Zik Bs !

** Zik Bs vs Zik Bs
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with unflakked Buccaneer       ( -35002) = Land
   Zik Bs (     +0) attacking Zik Bs defending with   flakked Buccaneer       ( -35002) = Land
   Zik Bs is vulnerable to Zik Bs!
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Unread 6 Oct 2016, 01:15   #72
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
My overall opinion is that Jintao's nerfs to Ter Bs have swapped Ter Bs and Ter De from #1/#2 to #2/#1. Now Ter De needs a nerf. I feel like the only viable option is improving the Fireblade's Init to 4. That in turn requires nerfing the Ghost's to 5, I think. Xan will still be immune to Fi incs, but the counter will be off-class. Ghost to Init 6 (instead of 5) makes Xan Fi a lot stronger, so that's probably a step too far.

The next thing I'm looking at is Zik De. The Clipper's fast Init is pointless, since Co is a pure-EMP class. Maybe swapping the types on Clipper and Cutter might improve things? Looks like a fairly local change, only impacts (annihilates) the ability of Ter Bs to roid Zik De. The main drawback of this change is that it buffs Ter De even more by providing a better teamup partner... Urgh. I don't really see what else to do about it though. If the swap is too annoying to work out, then we might just have to accept that Zik De sucks.

I'm also seeing a problem with Buccaneer and Rogue cross stealing at the same Init. Same goes for Corsair and Cutlass. Can't have that.
Ter definitely is the better version of Zik at the moment, the only reason to pick Zik over Ter is for the Corsair/Cutlass as defense ships. Both its roiding fleets are outclassed. The Clipper does need low init though, to combat the Fireblade. If you make Clipper init 4, Fireblade 5 and Pegasus 6, you actually have a reason to play an attacking Zik.
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Unread 6 Oct 2016, 19:37   #73
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Re: Next round stats?

So faking zik de as cr isn't an option then

Edit- I designed a set of stats where meta faking was possible with those who are adapt at this game could do to get around autodef.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 03:25   #74
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Re: Next round stats?

Ok these are tonight's changes:

Ter de: -1 emp res (+8% eff)
Harpy: +1 armor
Syren: nerfed (Never meant to be this strong)
Cutlass: +1 armor
Changed Cutlass init
Peacekeeper: +1 armor +1 damage

Didn't change zik de because zik de is actually better than ter de. all de def ships do less dmg to zik than ter with the exception of the wyvern. It does a little bit more dmg, but not much. It's also the only ship that prefires both de fleets.

Unless i missed something i think the set will do well. Overall it's fairly well balanced. Ter is a bit more defensive, but xan has cloak and zik has the ability to augment thier fleets. Gotta run though it one last time in the morning. They'll be final when signups open.

Last edited by Jintao; 7 Oct 2016 at 07:12.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 09:38   #75
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Re: Next round stats?

Amazingly, that small EMP change has made Ter De vulnerable to Cat Co. Needless to say, it's a close thing, so they probably won't be Cat Co's preferred target. Still, good change.

The reason Zik De is weaker than Ter De (still) is not because of the roiding fleets, but because of the defensive side of things. Dragon and Wyvern make Ter mostly immune to De and Cr incs (Cat Cr has a chance), while Cutlass and Buccaneer do not perform the same service for Zik.

That said, I am retracting my suggestion for Fireblade/Ghost nerfs, both my and Patrikc's versions of them (which looked better to me at first glance) make Xan a massive powerhouse and turn De to shit.

I think at this point the only remaining option to help Zik is Eff changes. It's too late in the process to go faffing about with inits. Cutter is the only ship I'd like to build as a Zik De player that I wouldn't want with Zik Cr, so that might be a good focal point. Ter Bs wouldn't be hurt too beyond repair by such a change either, I think.

P.S. For the record:
Code:
Roids:      Ter De      Ter Ba      Cat Co      Cat Cr      Xan Fi      Xan Fr      Zik De      Zik Cr
Ter De      Immune      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Ter Ba  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable      Immune      Immune  Vulnerable      Immune
Cat Co  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Cat Cr  Vulnerable      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Xan Fi  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable      Immune      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Xan Fr  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable      Immune      Immune
Zik De      Immune      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
Zik Cr      Immune      Immune  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable  Vulnerable
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 7 Oct 2016 at 09:59.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 10:28   #76
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Re: Next round stats?

Last and final change: gave the cutter +2 dmg
Puts zik de def skills vs bs at the same level as the chimera + pirate can't def vs cutter

hopefull the stats are now balanced enough because appoco needs em now so he can start setting up the server for signups to open later today and than every alliance will wanna get started on strats
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 12:51   #77
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Re: Next round stats?

In the first place, stats are not responsible for round stagnation.

But with last round stats, alliances and naptarion no one could roid any alliance that cared about def going 1 x 1. Main reason: naptarion + ally fleets. Again, not stats.

Naptarion is something that won't change. Ally fleet could, but as no one spoke about it, I assume it won't either.

Can stats help changing the above scenario?

If we think they can, Jintao's set is similar to previous rounds sets and probably will not help with it. Wouldn't be better to try a different one?

If they can't affect, any set is good if it is at least balanced.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 13:17   #78
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Re: Next round stats?

I do not think stats are the cause of the issues you are trying to adress fotran. But maybe interesting if you make a seperate topic about it to explore it.

The recent stats have been a bit more offensive. Which means landing is easier and defending is harder. Thus every alliance HC will try to lower the number of possible hostiles by napping other alliances.

If the stats are defensive it's harder to land attacks because almost no effort is required to stop the attack. In other words the alliance needs less resources to defend the members and few to no naps are required to ensure the players are happy/the alliance does well.

If the stats are in the middle. I'll presume there will be some naps, but not that many as with offensive stats.

In the end the result is the same. People do not like getting attacked while wanting to always land their own attacks. Too many attacks makes members unhappy/makes alliances drop ranks. So HC's avoid having to deal with the issue by making naps.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 13:49   #79
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Re: Next round stats?

I think your logic explains what happens. Now, any alliance can reduce the number of incs to a manageable level. Which means, alliance fleets brings the minimum level of defense needed in Naptarion. Before, some alliances couldn't achieve that minimum level, so there wasn't such a level of stagnation.

So, stats can really affect that.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 14:05   #80
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Re: Next round stats?

So what you are saying is that PaTeam should encourage noob bashing in order to solve the problem that the big bad bully is afraid of hitting anyone but a defenceless noob?

This reminds me of a discussion i recently had about 'war' status. It gives a really nice bonus, yet almost no alliance uses it. What's stopping you from having war after war? Fight it out and dominate your piers?

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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 14:24   #81
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
So what you are saying is that PaTeam should encourage noob bashing in order to solve the problem that the big bad bully is afraid of hitting anyone but a defenceless noob?
Yes. If it is easy to noob bash, it also means it is easier to gang bang. If a "big bad bully" can harass a weaker ally, the size of the group needed to attack this "big bad bully" is also smaller than the size needed nowadays.
What happens today is not that people are afraid of hitting each other, it is that there very little gain in hitting each other. Everyone being capable of holding their roids results in very little urge for combat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
This reminds me of a discussion i recently had about 'war' status. It gives a really nice bonus, yet almost no alliance uses it. What's stopping you from having war after war? Fight it out and dominate your piers?
The current war system is only good when roids are gained. 1x1 wars are simply not profitable.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 15:00   #82
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
What happens today is not that people are afraid of hitting each other, it is that there very little gain in hitting each other. Everyone being capable of holding their roids results in very little urge for combat.
I agree. In response, the stats have become much more offensive the last couple of rounds. Offensive stats can somewhat but (perhaps unfortunately?) not fully compensate for the alliance defense fleet.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 15:27   #83
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Re: Next round stats?

offtopic*

and if roids gives u less resources/tick?

making xp more wanted?

dunno, just thinking about how to make wars usefull again..
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 18:15   #84
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Re: Next round stats?

Or... increase XP?

Keep the same diminishing returns on XP, but give more score per XP?
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 18:22   #85
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Re: Next round stats?

I proposed the discussion of how stats could affect (or save) the round.

XP is a matter for another discussion in a different topic imo. Furthermore, XP depends on roids gained. So unless one finds yourself a friendly alliance to roid swap, gaining roids will still be difficult. Increasing XP gain in a stagnated round will only help in creating top3 planets (through escorts, agreements, etc).
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 18:29   #86
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph View Post
offtopic*

and if roids gives u less resources/tick?

making xp more wanted?

dunno, just thinking about how to make wars usefull again..

I think FC's play a huge part in no one wanting war. When you have alliances who are very efficient in FC attacks, no one wants to fight them in all out war.


Maybe give def fleets an extra tick to launch when declared "war" to help curb FC's and promote a reason to declare.

Ally fleets need to go first.
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Unread 7 Oct 2016, 19:46   #87
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Re: Next round stats?

the stats are looking decent cheers jintoa for the edit without ruining them
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