so we are getting a new governement

[wu_trax]

damn
can anyone recommend me a country to move to?

[Snurx]

How did the NPD do?

[wu_trax]

not worth mentioning, probably something around 1-2%.
what worries me more is that now we are going to get either some carzy bavarian or some ugly chick from the east who has no idea what shes talking about as chancelor. and people seriously think they will do better

[wu_trax]

if the alternative is even worse a lot of peole should (not around here, obviously, but i felt like starting a thread)

[roadrunner_0]

wu-trax, think of it this way:


could they be any worse than schroeder?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

wu-trax, think of it this way:


could they be any worse than schroeder?

im pretty certain they will be, thats the whole problem. economically they are going to give in to absolutly everything the employers demand, take our whole social security system apart and by doing so scare the people into spending even less money than they already do
in foreign affairs Merkel is going to do a lot of butt kissing for bush
for security the CSU will go even more insane than what we have now. (as if the evil muslim terrorists give a damn about us)
i could go on...
well, democracy makes sure people get what they deserve.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

If he wanted to get re-elected he should have been less shit.

were exactly was he shit? its not like he could push through much of his policy, the union blocked about everything he tried in the last years.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

As I understand it you should be thanking the unions for preventing him slashing the welfare state. If he had been trying to do anything good perhaps it would have been easier to get his agenda through.

sorry this is a bit confusing to explain in english.
'the union' is what we call the CDU / CSU (since they are a union of two parties i think. well, at least they pretend to be two parties, but in my opinion the csu is just the right-wing, bavarian branch of the cdu)
yes, they labor unions tried to stop schröder but more or less failed in that. we need some kind of reform of the social security system, we simply cant effort it they way it is anymore, but that doesnt mean we have to take everything apart in thatcher-style like the cdu plans. if we are one of the few industrial countries in the world that managed to keep or even increase their share in world trade our competitive situation cant be as bad as everyone thinks it is. the cdu will just overshoot the target.

[wu_trax]

if only there would be party that would us take backwards in terms of economical policy, back to 1950-1970 to be precise. and im not saying that because of that whole 'wirtschaftswunder'-stuff going on back then, we had a pretty good model of how an economy should work, what the state should and shouldnt do and so on. then politicians started to hand out 'presents' to win elections and always tried to make things 'better' and more 'fair' by adding more and more regulations until we ended up with a state quote of about 50%.

the poor will stay poor if they are not hired and they can spend any more money if they just dont have it. a major problem with our social security system is that its costs are almost completly paid for by the factor labor. an employer has to pay an aditional 50% of the gross income of the guy he employs for social security and the employee also pays almost 50% of his income for taxes and social security. thats not a situation you can keep that way, especially if you need a) make someone to invest in the country and to hire people and b) make the people spend more money

[G.K Zhukov]

Wu_trax: Germany is f***** anyways, socialdemocracy is dead.

[wu_trax]

given all that oversimplifing, neo-liberal drivel economists like to talk about these days that would really be a pity.

[Marilyn Manson]

People are fed up with a centre-left government which has had years and years to get the economy back on track, and has failed, as a result of much of the neccesary reforms being blocked by unions and left-wingers, and as a result a new centre-right government is due to be voted in?

Where have we heard that one before?

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Nantoz

How large is your unemployment rate now?
I heard someplace that parts of East Germany has as many as 30-40% unemployed persons.

somewhere around 10-12% all together i think, but for parts of the east you may be right (i think its more somewhere between 20 and 30%, but theey have been unemployed for 60 years, until 15 years ago they just didnt notice)
the funny thing is that people really expect the government to fix that from one day to the other. it is highly questionable if the state can do anything at all about that. it is supposed to set the basic conditions that allow strong growth, wealth and low unemployment and so on, not, like our stupid politicians have been doing it the last ten years: get directly envolved and hire people to do stupid thing, just so that they fall out of the statistic.
now lets say the CDU wins the next election. then they start doing some stuff (that may or may not make sense), but before those things they do really have any influence on the country the people, beeing stupid as they are, will start voting for the SPD again which sooner or later will result in a majority for them in our 2nd chamber. that means we will have the same deadlock situation we had in the last 20 years and nothing at all gets actually done.
once that happens i a) turn insane b) leave the country to be finally done with it and not give a crap about it anymore or c) start a revolution and try to make Schaumburg independent again, after all, that stupid idea of 1870/71 didn't really work out so well (wikipedia is just great ).

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

People are fed up with a centre-left government which has had years and years to get the economy back on track, and has failed, as a result of much of the neccesary reforms being blocked by unions and left-wingers, and as a result a new centre-right government is due to be voted in?

Where have we heard that one before?

actually they got blocked by the same center right governement that is going to win the next election.

[Marilyn Manson]

Well, it depends on how big a majority the CDU can gain. If they only end up with a 20 seat majority, then they're going to have trouble pushing through anything drastic.

P.S, I'd support Schaumburg-Lippe becoming independent again if wu_trax could be it's Prince.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

actually they got blocked by the same center right governement that is going to win the next election.

And Schoeder's pals in the unions and the SPD were all in favour of them? I think not.

[wu_trax]

Well, it depends on how big a majority the CDU can gain. If they only end up with a 20 seat majority, then they're going to have trouble pushing through anything drastic.

well, i doubt theyll get the 2/3 majority they would need to change the constitution, but other than that they will be pretty much free to do whatever they want for now. but if the unemployment rate doesnt at least half within two years people will start voting for the SPD again. ive seen it before, it will happen again.

P.S, I'd support Schaumburg-Lippe becoming independent again if wu_trax could be it's Prince.

actually, we have a count and at least he isnt such a nutjob as Prince Ernst-August of Hanover
btw, if you people should ever need any royals again, you really can have that guy

[Marilyn Manson]

Why is Hannover's royalty still knocking about? Hannover was absorbed into Prussia.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

And Schoeder's pals in the unions and the SPD were all in favour of them? I think not.

the unions dont have any direct political power and the spd and green members of the bundestag supported almost everything he did. it was the cdu who really blocked him in the bundesrat..

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Why is Hannover's royalty still knocking about? Hannover was absorbed into Prussia.

i dont know, they always have been i suppose. you only hear about him when he beats up reporters with his umbreall or pisses on turkish EXPO-pavilions. hes now married to Caroline of Monaco, so i guess he has no buisness here anymore.

[Weeks]

I recommend Sweden.
You could go further east. I've always liked eastern Europe.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Nantoz

How large is your unemployment rate now?
I heard someplace that parts of East Germany has as many as 30-40% unemployed persons.

For all of Germany: http://www.destatis.de/indicators/d/lrarb02ad.htm
Broken down to the various Länder: http://www.statistikportal.de/Statis..._jahrtab13.asp

[G.K Zhukov]

It's amasing how little clue MM actually has.

wu_trax > MM

[Lupin]

i would like to see 2 changes for democracy in germany doesnt matter which parties govers the country.

1) get rid of the special bonds and debentures for political position. (ie. schroeder was minister of niedersachsen and he gets bonds and debentures for this plus for his position of chancelor)

2) all landtagswahlen should be on the same date.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

It's amasing how little clue MM actually has.

wu_trax > MM

well, i actually live here, MM doesnt. he has more of an idea about german politics than i have about british.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Lupin

2) all landtagswahlen should be on the same date.

id sign that. as for the pensions, they should get no more than anyone else who works for that period of time for that money. id rather have them paid better during the time they are in office. but seriously, who is going to cut their own income?

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

well, i actually live here, MM doesnt. he has more of an idea about german politics than i have about british.

Not living in Germany is certainly a good excuse, however, if he had bothered to read newspapers/news-sites on the web he would be far better updated than he showed himself to bee.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Not living in Germany is certainly a good excuse, however, if he had bothered to read newspapers/news-sites on the web he would be far better updated than he showed himself to bee.

as i could be better informed about british politics if only i cared. (in fact even easier so, because i speak some english while MM probably most likely dsoesnt speak german, at least not good enough to read a german news site). why should anyone not living here care? i was somewhat surprised i got some replies in this thread at all.

btw, are you german? just wondering, i guess not many foreigners know the statische bundesamt

[Ärketrollmannen]

Originally Posted by Weeks

I recommend Sweden.
You could go further east. I've always liked eastern Europe.

we have enough foreigners

go home all!

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by wu_trax

the unions dont have any direct political power and the spd and green members of the bundestag supported almost everything he did. it was the cdu who really blocked him in the bundesrat..

But most of the seriously committed opposition, as I understand it, has come from within the SDP from people like Fontaine, and from various other sections of the left, regarding the reforms, which has served to gradually undermine his position with SPD voters. The CDU seems to have mostly been willing to strike deals with Schroder, at least in the Bundestag. Surely the SPD would had a majority in the Bundesrat until fairly recently? And even so, I would imagine Bundesrat members would be more independent than Bundestag members; it hardly seems fair to ascribe his failings solely on the CDU.

It seems to me that the chief problem has been SPD voters becoming apathetic and disenchanted, and middle ground voters becoming impatient.

Originally Posted by G. K. Zhukov

It's amasing how little clue MM actually has.

I found the irony of this highly enjoyable, coming as it has done from an individual who rountinely spouts unhelpful, malinformed, cretinous nonsense on a multitude of subjects.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

But most of the seriously committed opposition, as I understand it, has come from within the SDP from people like Fontaine, and from various other sections of the left, regarding the reforms, which has served to gradually undermine his position with SPD voters. The CDU seems to have mostly been willing to strike deals with Schroder, at least in the Bundestag. Surely the SPD would had a majority in the Bundesrat until fairly recently? And even so, I would imagine Bundesrat members would be more independent than Bundestag members; it hardly seems fair to ascribe his failings solely on the CDU.

our federalism does not work at all. yes, the Bundesrat SHOULD be more independent, but its not, its all just party policy. if you are in the CDU whatever the SPD says is wrong and vice versa. period. the SPD lost its majority in the bundesrat pretty soon after Schröder won his first term and has lost states ever after. there isnt a single state with a red/green government left by now.
sure, there have been some deals between the CDU and the SPD and i wouldn't put the entire blame on the CDU, the SPD did a lot of fairly stupid things while they were in power, but mostly the CDU blocked and delayed wherever possible.

[G.K Zhukov]

Ho ho ho.

MM fail to grasp; A) The problems facing the German Economy B) Agenda 2010 C) How the German political system works in practice.

Im sure wu_trax will tell him though

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Im sure wu_trax will tell him though

Whereas you have been a bastion of helpfulness, knowledge, and informed debate throughout the thread.

What an insufferable shit you are.

[G.K Zhukov]

Don't whine, just becouse you don't get it MM. Why should I educate a ignorent man, who after all went into this thread thinking he knew it all?

Now, here's a newspaper designed for people like yourself.
http://www.bild.t-online.de/BTO/

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Don't whine, just becouse you don't get it MM. Why should I educate a ignorent man, who after all went into this thread thinking he knew it all?

I have not professed to be infaliable in this thread, but I have at least made a contribution. You have harped on with your mindless prattling from the sidelines, doing practically the exact same thing as you accuse me of, and have made no contribution whatsoever; for someone who is apparently briming over with knowledge, you have been decidedly reserved in displaying it.

Crawl back under your stone, mongchop.

Originally Posted by wu_trax

sure, there have been some deals between the CDU and the SPD and i wouldn't put the entire blame on the CDU, the SPD did a lot of fairly stupid things while they were in power, but mostly the CDU blocked and delayed wherever possible.

But I was under the impression that the CDU in the Bundesrat tried to radicalise the proposals even further, rather than water them down. That doesn't suggest a genuine attempt to frustrate the reforms entirely.

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

But I was under the impression that the CDU in the Bundesrat tried to radicalise the proposals even further, rather than water them down. That doesn't suggest a genuine attempt to frustrate the reforms entirely.

ture, but there position is something like: unless you do more than you want, we will block and nothing will get done at all. this may sound somewhat crazy (if you want a lot and can get only a little, surely you take the little instead of nothing at all), but from there point of view as long as they are in the opposition its good if things become worse. then they have better chances of winning elections (people dont distiguish between federal- and state policy, if the Bund ****s up, the party in power loses states, no matter how great the policy of the Minister in that state is. another problem with our federalism)

edit: ofc, the 'SPD did the same thing back under Kohl and no doubt will do it again, once people realize that even the CDU can't fix the country within a year. the problem is not the party, its the system (and the stupidity of the people).

[Deffeh]

Looking like the end of the "third way" is drawing near

[wu_trax]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Looking like the end of the "third way" is drawing near

they ruined it in the 70s-80s, it just took 20 years for people to realize . then the reunion gave it the rest. a pitty, really.