unfair portal polls?

[InTGuRu]

I really understand how any decision can be made based on polls on the portal, esspically those involving private galaxies. Since I've chosen to go random next round, this has really started to bother me. Those who have a private galaxy for r9 are the ones that are active and can be bothered to check the portal every now and then. Any decision they make voting will have a pro-private bias.

Obviously they are not going to give open galaxies the slightist advantage over private ones. And judging by the smallish number ofvotes, one could guess that anywhere from 80%-90% of the votes come from active/private gal people.

Anyway just my two cents

[newt]

InTGuRu r0x!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

100% correct etc, ppl in private galaxies shud limit themselves to 5hrs online a day to make it fair.

[Scaggydo]

uhm.. what what?

those who tend to vote in polls are those with views they need ppl to hear. besides, if other ppl cant be arsed to read the portal, how is that the fault of ppl who do?

not that portal poll's do anything except give the crew a vague idea what the community want..

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Scaggydo
uhm.. what what?

not that portal poll's do anything except give the crew a vague idea what the community want..

a vague idea of what some of the community wants

[Scaggydo]

Originally posted by InTGuRu
a vague idea of what some of the community wants

a vague idea of what the people in the community who can be arsed to voice their opinions, want.

[mens]

Which would you prefer to see (note: curiosity only - this is NOT a decison making poll)

[Leshy]

You're complaining about the fact that the PA team makes decisions that the loyal community which actually bothers to check the Portal now and then, wants to see?

You're complaining about the fact that you hardly ever check the portal, don't voice your opinion, and that the people who do voice their opinion get what they want?

Please do clarify

[Scaggydo]

im complaining about ppl complaining about nothing..

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Leshy

You're complaining about the fact that you hardly ever check the portal, don't voice your opinion, and that the people who do voice their opinion get what they want?

I hardly ever check the portal? wow I better increase from twice a day to as fast as I can keep refreshing the page.

And if you read carefully, no where did I say planetarion should be based on 'inactives' but only that portal polls are voted on with a certain bias.

[zenopus]

Actually, what you said was

Originally posted by InTGuRu
I really understand how any decision can be made based on polls on the portal ... etc.

Then you go on theorising about who votes what. I would tend to agree with you, but we have no facts to back it up...

OFC any decisions based on a poll must take into account how the poll was made, not only the audience, but also the specific wording. Often the portal polls are worded in a way that, to me, seems to lead people to one option. Nice if a poll starter wants his own opinion confirmed, but not of much use really.

[TheShadowMan]

stop complainin use your energies to get more ppl to go to the portal and vote.

i vote most of the time

been in a priv gal once...fcuk that

random is more fun and u need to be a bit more skillful



Al

[SYMM]

Viewing the portal (as it is) should not be considered by anyone as a sign of activeness/loyalty/anything else.
As it is, there is nothing there (apart from poll after meaningless poll) to attract people to read it more than once a week (creators hour is all that makes me even check it that often).
The portal poll is really not a good way to get feedback from the players. People who can think ideas through, and realise the impacts they can have on the game should be selected/talked to about such things, if it was left to the people who "use their voice" on the forums, we'd be playing with R2 T&P in a universe with 6 people now.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by InTGuRu
And if you read carefully, no where did I say planetarion should be based on 'inactives' but only that portal polls are voted on with a certain bias.

A bias to what? Aren't the people voting on it exactly the demographic that the poll is intended to reach?

[SYMM]

Aren't the people voting on it exactly the demographic that the poll is intended to reach?

Not really. People may think they like something, but based on a single sentence (and a short one at that) decisions such as those on the portal should not be made (i know they're not, but anyway...) based on "ignorant" (through no fault of their own) players. If a link, with fuller details of the proposals was provided, then maybe more well-educated representation could be found

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Leshy
A bias to what? Aren't the people voting on it exactly the demographic that the poll is intended to reach?

afaik the polls are meant for the whole community, not just the active (private gal) ones

[newt]

InTGuRu is right, the rest of u r wrong!!!!

[InTGuRu]

i agree with newt

[Scaggydo]

so we should now call as void all democratic elections ever to have been held for anything ever, because it only displays the opinions of those who can be arsed to vote..

/me watches world democracy crumble under InTGuRu's twisted logic.

[newt]

well, look at the democracy in england. Because most ppl dont vote we're stuck with the twat that is tony blair leading the country.

shows the flaws in democracy, and how badly it portrays the populations wishes as a whole tbh.

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Scaggydo
so we should now call as void all democratic elections ever to have been held for anything ever, because it only displays the opinions of those who can be arsed to vote..

/me watches world democracy crumble under InTGuRu's twisted logic.

name one true democratic country today, democratic republics don't count

[JC]

Everyone has the opportunity to read the portal and vote on any polls there, its not the Creators fault if people decide not to. Anyway, the polls arent definitive, it only gives the Creators an idea of what people think, it doesnt automatically mean that will happen.


<@InTGuRu> http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=157396
<@InTGuRu> go post some pro-InTGuRu properganda
<@Newt> omg
<@Newt> will i ever
<@InTGuRu> newt if you don't go post some pro-InT messages right now your getting trout slapped to Tokyo

Stop being a prick Newt .

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by JC

<@InTGuRu> http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=157396
<@InTGuRu> go post some pro-InTGuRu properganda
<@Newt> omg
<@Newt> will i ever
<@InTGuRu> newt if you don't go post some pro-InT messages right now your getting trout slapped to Tokyo

Stop being a prick Newt .

This never happened.

[newt]

using logs is n0rdi :/

changing logs is even n0rdier.

Read the forum rules ... they're around somewhere.

[Neferti]

/me thinks intguru just didn't get his way on one of the polls...

to be fair, the majority is usually wrong in any normal democracy

[A2]

OK... the current poll

1 - Portal polls are never intended to make a decision for the creators.
2 - We know that some people vote more than once, others don't vote at all, and the people who do vote aren't necessarily interested in the ins and outs of the issue.
3 - We do try to update the poll reasonably recently and the previous one had been around for quite a while. The poll is generally set whenever someone comes up with an issue that it would be interesting to know the answer to and we try to keep it reasonably relevant to Planetarion.
For example we could ask:

Who Likes Cheese?
- Yes
- No
- Only on Toast

...but that wouldn't be relevant to PA in any way, shape or form.

The current overburn/galaxy size poll was dreamt up early one morning during a PM I was having on IRC about that issue and thought that, as it was time to change the poll, it would be interesting to find out what a few other people thought.

[Scaggydo]

Originally posted by Newt
well, look at the democracy in england. Because most ppl dont vote we're stuck with the twat that is tony blair leading the country.

shows the flaws in democracy, and how badly it portrays the populations wishes as a whole tbh.

so u would prefer Iain "exciting as fk" duncan smith, or Charles "wee scottish prick" Kennedy? the fact is, its a nation where any one of us is in a position where if we want it enough it is completely feasible we can become PM.

originally posted by InTGuRu
name one true democratic country today, democratic republics don't count

nothing is perfect, but u would rather live in a a despotism or collapsed communist state? where no body gets a say except the one or 2 cronies in charge? .. hmm, GD here we come..

[Leshy]

Let's try and keep in on-topic, shall we?

[SYMM]

There's a topic to this?
"unfair" is probably not the right word, "pointless" probably sums it up (that's the polls and the portal itself).

[A2]

Originally posted by SYMM
"unfair" is probably not the right word, "pointless" probably sums it up (that's the polls and the portal itself).

If you think the portal is pointless then you might want to consider posting on http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=155857 (which incidentally has been around for a couple of weeks)

The polls vary in pointlessness and as I pointed out earlier cannot be taken as an accurate indicator of the opinion of the game players. However, without a poll being presented upon login (to a game which currently is not online) there is no way to survey every actual player of the game and you will always get non-player voting.

The same arguments about mis-representation could be used against any poll posted on the forums too tbh.

[SYMM]

If you think the portal is pointless then you might want to consider posting on http://pirate.planetarion.com/showt...threadid=155857

I did.
I'm not saying a post on the forums (or anywhere for that matter) would be a good representation, i'm sure they would be just as flawed. I suppose there's no reason not to have them as a bit of meaningless fun, but if the coders did ever request feedback, I would hope it would be through the means of a well-educated discussion rather than a poll.

[Judge]

People who cannot be bothered to vote, have no right to complain when things are not to their liking.

As in real life, if you dont vote, you dont have a voice.

[zenopus]

Originally posted by A2
Who Likes Cheese?
- Yes
- No
- Only on Toast

More like (poll addressed at a 6-year-old)

• We have a cake, you have to share it with your sister but you get to chose your piece first, now, do you want me to cut it into two equal-sized pieces or one piece larger than the other.

The only potential issue would probably be understanding, which could be sorted by asking the kid to cut the cake himself.

[Scaggydo]

originally posted by A2

Who likes cheese?
- Yes
- No
- Only on Toast

a) the question who likes cheese cannot be answered by any of the abover answers.. unless u know someone called "Only on Toast", clearly u can say "paul likes cheese" or generalise such as "Englishmen like cheese" but the options given give a non sensical answer to the question.

b) (assuming (A) is ignored) i missed this poll when was it on the portal? i have an opinion i wish to voice however i fear the poll was biased in favour of those who like cheese on toast cos only they read the portal..

c) [/pisstake]

[Scaggydo]

Originally posted by zenopus
The only potential issue would probably be understanding, which could be sorted by asking the kid to cut the cake himself.

i hope u arent a parent.. u shouldnt let children play with knives..

(see (c) above)

[zenopus]

Originally posted by Scaggydo
i hope u arent a parent.. u shouldnt let children play with knives..

IANAP. Does that imply that it is perfectly alright for me to let children play with knives?
My previous post only says "...asking the kid to cut the cake himself", nowhere was there any mention of knives.

(see (c) above)

OIC.

[Scaggydo]

Originally posted by zenopus
IANAP. Does that imply that it is perfectly alright for me to let children play with knives?
My previous post only says "...asking the kid to cut the cake himself", nowhere was there any mention of knives.

heh, what do u suggest the kid uses? crayons? a soft toy maybe? heh.. this thread became a farce when i got bored

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Judge
People who cannot be bothered to vote, have no right to complain when things are not to their liking.

As in real life, if you dont vote, you dont have a voice.

Just becuase they do not vote, it doesn't mean they should be ignored does it?

And you are getting quite off topic. The point is that the loud majority is shutting out the small minority. Using private v. open as an example, the majority of PA, who are active enough, are going to be in a private galaxy. This usually means they have time and therefore are active enough to post their opinions through forums or polls. However, the minority of PA is going open galaxies. Chances are they don't have as much time. They are not as loud and not as willing to speak their mind (for all the hostiles responses) and they are seens as the n00bs/inactives/immature kids which should be ignored.

All I was trying to say that the scope of the portal polls represent only one faction of the PA community.

[Scaggydo]

Originally posted by InTGuRu
The point is that the loud majority is shutting out the small minority.

firstly, who says all the people who didnt vote share ure opinion on the topic?

secondly, the majority have the say over the minority? shock! horror! .. thats what democracy is fs. everyone has a chance to have a say and the majority rule. i cant beelive you are still fighting this. this silent minority who cant be arsed to vote, lose their say so on anything and everything when they decline to vote.

its like when ppl who dont bother to vote in a countries parliamentry election complain about the governing body. if u didnt vote, how the hell can u have a say? fs. what do you exactly want the pa team to do? make voting compulsary? if u dont vote in each and every forum poll, u cant have an accnt? be realistic. if u dont vote, u dont get a say. if u want ure opinions heard, then vote. simple.

[InTGuRu]

Originally posted by Scaggydo
firstly, who says all the people who didnt vote share ure opinion on the topic?

secondly, the majority have the say over the minority? shock! horror! .. thats what democracy is fs. everyone has a chance to have a say and the majority rule. i cant beelive you are still fighting this. this silent minority who cant be arsed to vote, lose their say so on anything and everything when they decline to vote.

its like when ppl who dont bother to vote in a countries parliamentry election complain about the governing body. if u didnt vote, how the hell can u have a say? fs. what do you exactly want the pa team to do? make voting compulsary? if u dont vote in each and every forum poll, u cant have an accnt? be realistic. if u dont vote, u dont get a say. if u want ure opinions heard, then vote. simple.

I think you need to clearify your meaning on the word democracy. You are using parliamentry governments as an example. That is a democratic republic, you elect people that run the country, you do no run the country through your votes. Before you start yelling and thrashing about, learn what it means.

And ever hear of "Majority Rule, Minority Rights"? That is what exists in a true democracy.

Also note the "?" in the post's topic which denotes a question. The reason for that is yes, some of the things I've said is based on speculation. Lastly, my intital post ended with "Anyway just my two cents" meaning "Just my opinion"

[InTGuRu]

btw, is it that wrong to say something for a small fraction of people? Be it 1 person or 1000 people.

[Scaggydo]

ok InTGuRu, the team provide people ample space to voice their views, be it through the forum, polls and creators hour questions, not to mention the ability to email all the team. please tell me how you propose to make heard the voice of people who cant be arsed to use any of the above.

the minority have rights, they have the right to vote and to speak, but choose not to. to go with the flow. maybe they arent interested in trying to make their opinions felt as they just want to play a game and not be bothered with making their views heard. then again, maybe you are sour that those who voted were not in the majority in favour of the same thing as you.

and there is nothing wrong with expressing the opinion of the minority. however it is stupid to say that a poll will be biased in favour of the majority. maybe what ever the poll outcome, the score should be displayed to be 50:50 so as there is no bias? cmon. what is it that u want?

please, tell me how you propose to make heard the thoughts and opinions of those who dont wanna make them heard.

.. the floor, is all yours.

[InTGuRu]

Where are you getting all this from? The topic is 'unfair portal poll?'. My points is because not all of the PA community is polled, not all of the PA community is heard, no decision made FROM the polls.

For example, IF there was an election and the only two people voted were both democrats. Which of the candidate would win? Because it is not an accurate representation, you cannot assume that everyone feels this way.

[Scaggydo]

the point is, more than 2 people would probably have a view on this and would vote. if the other people dont care and so dont vote, where is the injustice? no body has stopped anyone from voting. by not voting they themselves decided to give up their right of an opinion on a decision. the people who gave a damn, voted and so the decision was made based on the majority of people who cared enough to vote.

you did not yet answer my question. u are complaining that it is unfair that a decision is made based only on the opinions of the people who voted. how then do u propose to poll the whole of the pa community and so get heard the opinions of the minority which u champion so blindly?

[InTGuRu]

Have a poll at login running for a week

[Scaggydo]

tbh, its not such a bad idea. if u havent completed a vote, u cant log in. though then u would have multi accnts simply to make their opinions heard. and the problem of the uninformed making poor decisions, though everyone is entitled.

though why ppl dont do what i do, i dont know. simply bookmark the portal and access the forum through it, checking the poll while u do so (it opens forum in a new window anyhow) instead of bookmarking the forum.

[InTGuRu]

not everyone has enough ram to run two windows at once

[Scaggydo]

:/ Amiga?


Leshy, i know its not allowed.. but, for the sake of humanity and my sanity..


<InTGuRu> lol
<InTGuRu> stop posting
<InTGuRu> so i don't have to keep responding
<Scaggeh> heh, u stop :P
<InTGuRu> no
<InTGuRu> i need the last post
<InTGuRu> so it looks like you lost
<Scaggeh> lmao.. shame irc logs are banned, this woulda been a great way to finish the thread
<Jellinek> inded indeed
<InTGuRu> i'll just deny it
<Jellinek> I'll second it

[InTGuRu]

This never happened.

[Scaggydo]

u said you would do that

i have a feeling Leshy will have the last word on this thread..

[InTGuRu]

I would say that too if it never happened.